Opinion Is this rock bottom?

[ferball]

Well, you've convinced me. Now I am just confused as to how we can be so bad given we've got so much right

Like I told Zondor just upthread there are plenty of reasons why we are shithouse at the moment but Rawlings is low down that list - everyone of the people with more responsibility for that situation are gone and if someone who is better at list management is available I wouldn't care either.

 

[Passmore]

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[Themanbun]

We all know what happened with Brown's contract. Daw played about three games and it was obvious he was struggling from the pain. Not gonna repeat the stories I've heard about Pittard and Williams (Tho I would have kept them at the time). Wood played about 60 games in eight or nine seasons and 9 in his first year at St Kilda. Funnily enough Wood played as many games in 20 and 21 as Atu did in 21 and 22.

Do you people forget how little footy Brown and Daw played since and Wood and Murphy played beforehand?

Pittard and Williams didn't put in the best shift in the hub, like most of our club including people who made the decisions to move them on. Replaced by guys like Atu (who was gifted games on shit form) who had eye on a different sport, lol.

Brown went to a premiership side and became a key cog. Move him on, sure, but there was ZERO plan to replace him. And yes, we do know what happened with his contract. We revoked all offers and told the whole world we wanted him gone, then we started finger pointing at his manager for dare trying to get another year for his client, right?

Daw went to the same side on the understanding that he was depth, fact. Do you think there was maybe just a smidge difference in list quality between the premiers and us in 2021 and 2022? He would have been much further up the pecking order at North, unless we genuinely think some of the blokes we've played in key positions since offered more? He would have played 10 games + per year and straightened us up. Most importantly wouldn't have left Larkey one out.

Murphy was absolutely shafted by club. He consistently outperforms our own top picks at VFL level. Much better choice than the Charlie Hams of the world.

Wood went to a club that valued him and didn't keep him insecure and guess what, he thrived.

These are blokes who, at worst, would have made our VFL significantly stronger, allowing a much more fruitful development environment.

The blokes you defend showed an incredible amount of hubris, thinking that all they needed to do was turn the list over and replace with anybody. Given we've been at the bottom of the ladder since then and our list is STILL in horrible shape, filled with picks from our post Scott era list managers, I'd say that the critique is more than justified.

 

[hilly]

Pittard and Williams didn't put in the best shift in the hub, like most of our club including people who made the decisions to move them on. Replaced by guys like Atu (who was gifted games on shit form) who had eye on a different sport, lol.

Brown went to a premiership side and became a key cog. Move him on, sure, but there was ZERO plan to replace him.

Daw went to the same side on the understanding that he was depth, fact. Do you think there was maybe just a smidge difference in list quality between the premiers and us in 2021 and 2022? He would have been much further up the pecking order at North, unless we genuinely think some of the blokes we've played in key positions since offered more? He would have played 10 games + per year and straightened us up. Most importantly wouldn't have left Larkey one out.

Murphy was absolutely shafted by club. He consistently outperforms our own top picks at VFL level. Much better choice than the Charlie Hams of the world.

Wood went to a club that valued him and didn't keep him insecure and guess what, he thrived.

These are blokes who, at worst, would have made our VFL significantly stronger, allowing a much more fruitful development environment.

The blokes you defend showed an incredible amount of hubris, thinking that all they needed to do was turn the list over and replace with anybody. Given we've been at the bottom of the ladder since then and our list is STILL in horrible shape, filled with picks from our post Scott era list managers, I'd say that the critique is more than justified.

He's only been list manager for five years, surely someone else is to blame.

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[Themanbun]

He's only been list manager for five years, surely someone else is to blame.

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Look it's not just Rawlings who's been involved, but the last 5 years have been a never ending saga of finger pointing about problems being [insert whoever just left the club]'s fault.

• it's Ben Brown's managers fault for dare asking for another year, that's why it was smart for us to revoke all offers and tell the world we wanted him gone, reducing his trade value

• it's Mason Wood's fault we delisted him, complete surprise he became a gun at another club!

• it's Higgo's fault for wanting an extra year that he would have seen as reward for helping lead and guide the youngsters

• Tarrant didn't want to be here, even though he remained at the club for a fair while after the hub issues and we didnt to offer him what much stronger clubs offered

• it's Jasper and Marley's fault they didn't do well in what was a significant anomaly of a year that our own club administrators struggled with

• it's Luff's fault that we picked the bloke we thought was the best talent in 2021, certainly nothing to do with those who oversaw his work

• it's Brad Scott's fault in 2024 that we haven't addressed our list balance in five years

• it's Tom Murphy's fault he got delisted, even though he rarely received any feedback

• JHF conspired against us from before the draft! He certainly didn't get disillusioned at North!

• it's CJ's fault we overpaid for him!

Forgive me for thinking we're the common denominator here.

 

[Themanbun]

In 5 years time we'll still be screaming about Brad Scott while we pick up our 22nd medium forward

 

[amaz199]

You only need to look at the list management leaving just before the 2022 MSD as the lowest point of this footy club. There were clearly some significant conflicts in the direction of the list management and it got more exposed by how badly we drafted and the rudderless manner in which we targeted certain players. It was all over the joint. We got Kal Dawson as a desperate need and couldn't draft a player based on what we would've liked. The club ultimately is to blame for this mess. If we were serious about high performance in the footy dept, this bullshit doesn't go as far as it did. No way. The review would've been a nasty reading.

To be more positive, it's no surprise that the MSD has looked a lot better for us as of recent (since we overhauled the list management team). Teakle has been a contested marking option and RHJ may have just come alive. The MSD picks we've got recently actually have been a point of difference and will continue to develop. This was largely not the case with the old regime.

I'm prepared to see what Rawlings can do from here. The last trade period saw him address some list needs and I guarantee you if the old team was still there, we don't even trade nearly as well as we did with all the internal conflicts inbetween.

Stability at a footy club will make jobs a lot easier. Just ask Larkey after what he said last night.

 

[Colby Cheer Squad]

Brady's record and whether he deserves to remain in his position beyond this season is for someone with far better insight than me to decide. However, I do find it fascinating the way the regular critics of Brady refuse to acknowledge the culpability of a certain other sacred cow who The acurate one revealed had a great deal of influence on the delistings and trades especially during the Covid years. As I recall, The acurate one was forced to remove a post, such was the animosity over the very suggestion that this club legend may have been behind certain decisions.

 

[Themanbun]

You only need to look at the list management leaving just before the 2022 MSD as the lowest point of this footy club. There were clearly some significant conflicts in the direction of the list management and it got more exposed by how badly we drafted and the rudderless manner in which we targeted certain players. It was all over the joint. We got Kal Dawson as a desperate need and couldn't draft a player based on what we would've liked. The club ultimately is to blame for this mess. If we were serious about high performance in the footy dept, this bullshit doesn't go as far as it did. No way. The review would've been a nasty reading.

To be more positive, it's no surprise that the MSD has looked a lot better for us as of recent (since we overhauled the list management team). Teakle has been a contested marking option and RHJ may have just come alive. The MSD picks we've got recently actually have been a point of difference and will continue to develop. This was largely not the case with the old regime.

I'm prepared to see what Rawlings can do from here. The last trade period saw him address some list needs and I guarantee you if the old team was still there, we don't even trade nearly as well as we did with all the internal conflicts inbetween.

Stability at a footy club will make jobs a lot easier. Just ask Larkey after what he said last night.

I don't disagree with this. Think we are slowly crawling our way out of this mess, which is a positive.

I said it at the time though, I got frustrated by the finger pointing at external or recently departed factors when in hindsight it's clear the club including people who are still there have made some serious mistakes.

We're on rebuild 3.0 in 7 years, maybe 4.0 upcoming. We've made a lot of mistakes. We own it and get better.

But with our current coaching and football department, as well as some luck in getting absolute freaks like Sheezel, I'm feeling better than I was in 2020-2023 about our future.

 

[amaz199]

I don't disagree with this. Think we are slowly crawling our way out of this mess, which is a positive.

I said it at the time though, I got frustrated by the finger pointing at external or recently departed factors when in hindsight it's clear the club including people who are still there have made some serious mistakes.

We're on rebuild 3.0 in 7 years, maybe 4.0 upcoming. We've made a lot of mistakes. We own it and get better.

But with our current coaching and football department, as well as some luck in getting absolute freaks like Sheezel, I'm feeling better than I was in 2020-2023 about our future.

As much as it sounds like finger pointing, I couldn't help but recall Rawlings himself saying something along lines of 'it's good to have a team on the same page' or something like that. It was telling. That stuff shouldn't happen.

What went on during those dark times is completely unacceptable and the fact Rawlings has survived tells me some decisions made perhaps didn't come from him. Which would've been alarming at the time and a scathing review would've exposed too.

Orchestrating that trade when JHF wanted to chicken out and **** off was extremely crucial. Rawlings had to make the best of it and did.

With a list management team in harmony, we haven't made a single bad move. We've largely been in agreement with how the club is handling the list.

That's a step in the right direction even though it's sorta incremental but still a positive.

 

[DrZaius]

As good as the post bye positives have been, rounds 1-5 2025 will tell the true tale of where we are really at. We must be competitive and be on an upward trajectory from the get-go.

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I thought that was supposed to be round 6 this year when we played Hawthorn?
Hard to keep track of all these moving targets.

 

[archereleven]

Again who? Late round speculative picks is about all we'd have had access to, fair enough if you could have named a few early. Don't say Logan McDonald cos he's useless. Talls since 2020 - Aidan Corr, Edwards, CCJ (yeah I know,) Kallan Dawson, Logue, Free, Nyuon, Pink, Will Dawson, Goad, Sellers, Tealke and Maley. (In 2019 we got Comben but I'm not counting him.)

What you mean is better talls... so who and how?

Keath, Lobb, Francis, Hamling, L. McDonald, Koschitzke, Blight, Chol, Frampton, McStay, Hogan, Wright, Weiderman, Sam Durdin lol



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[DrZaius]

Brady's record and whether he deserves to remain in his position beyond this season is for someone with far better insight than me to decide. However, I do find it fascinating the way the regular critics of Brady refuse to acknowledge the culpability of a certain other sacred cow who The acurate one revealed had a great deal of influence on the delistings and trades especially during the Covid years. As I recall, The acurate one was forced to remove a post, such was the animosity over the very suggestion that this club legend may have been behind certain decisions.

Think you need to take TAO’s own interpretations of what goes on behind the scenes with a gigantic grain of salt. It’s someone’s own opinion filtered through his own.

 

[The acurate one]

Brady's record and whether he deserves to remain in his position beyond this season is for someone with far better insight than me to decide. However, I do find it fascinating the way the regular critics of Brady refuse to acknowledge the culpability of a certain other sacred cow who The acurate one revealed had a great deal of influence on the delistings and trades especially during the Covid years. As I recall, The acurate one was forced to remove a post, such was the animosity over the very suggestion that this club legend may have been behind certain decisions.

Not sure I removed it, may have, although I don't tend to give many ****s towards animosity sent my way. I actually try and be impartial.

Everyone makes mistakes, and I'm looking forward to the ' Done 'n' Dusted for 24 ' thread. Which will I'd hope have a mix of positives, negatives and reasons for why we remain at the foot of the ladder. Reason's do not equal excuses.

And there is some glaring "reasons" as to why we are where we are.

Snoz has got some wrong, but has got some right, he was on his own in wanting Paul Cutis. If he can kick a goal this week, that will be 30 goals for the season, I'd like to know who wouldn't have seen that as successful at the start of the season.

 

[Colby Cheer Squad]

Think you need to take TAO’s own interpretations of what goes on behind the scenes with a gigantic grain of salt. It’s someone’s own opinion filtered through his own.

I think he may have been right on this one though. And that's not to excuse Brady from the end-of-season knifings around 2020-2021. But CSI would have found plenty of DNA evidence to incriminate at least one other perp.

 

[ferball]

Pittard and Williams didn't put in the best shift in the hub, like most of our club including people who made the decisions to move them on. Replaced by guys like Atu (who was gifted games on shit form) who had eye on a different sport, lol.

Brown went to a premiership side and became a key cog. Move him on, sure, but there was ZERO plan to replace him. And yes, we do know what happened with his contract. We revoked all offers and told the whole world we wanted him gone, then we started finger pointing at his manager for dare trying to get another year for his client, right?

Daw went to the same side on the understanding that he was depth, fact. Do you think there was maybe just a smidge difference in list quality between the premiers and us in 2021 and 2022? He would have been much further up the pecking order at North, unless we genuinely think some of the blokes we've played in key positions since offered more? He would have played 10 games + per year and straightened us up. Most importantly wouldn't have left Larkey one out.

Murphy was absolutely shafted by club. He consistently outperforms our own top picks at VFL level. Much better choice than the Charlie Hams of the world.

Wood went to a club that valued him and didn't keep him insecure and guess what, he thrived.

These are blokes who, at worst, would have made our VFL significantly stronger, allowing a much more fruitful development environment.

The blokes you defend showed an incredible amount of hubris, thinking that all they needed to do was turn the list over and replace with anybody. Given we've been at the bottom of the ladder since then and our list is STILL in horrible shape, filled with picks from our post Scott era list managers, I'd say that the critique is more than justified.

This is rewriting history to a certain degree.

Maj played 16 games of VFL footy over two seasons and about half were good. He struggled in some and looked very uncomfortable. I hated that we let him go but after watching him play some games in those years he was cooked. In one or two I watched he was wincing as he moved. Maybe if he'd rehabbed till 2023 he could have made it work.

Mason Wood averaged 8 or 9 games a year for us because he was constantly getting injured. In his entire career with us he played more than 15 games once and only played 9 in his first year at St Kilda. I probably would have kept Pittard and Williams at the time but wouldn't have kept him. But I dunno what actual leadership they'd have provided. Pittard was poor when he in the leadership group and Marley was a bit of a party boy (as was Higgo). Neither were consistent kicks either.

We weren't at the hub but maybe part of the reason they were delisted was that people who were decided they didn't want young players exposed to their attitudes.

Robbie Tarrant wanted two years and got those two years at Richmond. He played AFL in one of them. Ben Brown appears to have fallen out with players at the hub while he played 9 games for 8 goals after not signing for three years at $750Kpa. He played 13, 19, 7 and 6 games and kicked 25, 30, 11 and 7 goals in the following years. The same people who are whinging about about Lmac and Jy's contracts and would have been just as unhappy if we'd kept those guys given their output. Maybe we could have got something worked out with Taz to coach but as it was we offered him one year and he played one year.

I've changed my mind since then ... these opinions are all with hindsight but it was obvious even before we did it (the list cull) that we in for years of pain.

I agree Murphy should have stayed and I'd have preferred we kept Dumont, Atley and Anderson from the next two years as harder bodies with a bit more of an idea. But i think they all wanted to go home anyway.

I've seen people criticise the decisions to give Xerri and Larkey long contracts, to keep Xerri, the recruitment of Corr, Fisher and Stephens (even tho that actually improved our draft hand last year,) claim that all of our MSD picks are pus when they aren't, call Sheezel and Powell small mids and a whole bunch of other crap to justify a vendetta against someone cos we're losing games.

I'm not into witch hunts and people who belong in redneck mobs with torches and pitchforks wandering around drooling and screaming out "Burn him! Burn him!".

Sure make reasonable criticism if you like but don't forget the list was bad (everyone off this board said so for years and we hated them for it,) the relationships between players had potentially broken down and we showed nothing at all in the second half of that season. Apart from Lmac, Jy and Jed (and a few others - Goldy, Froggy, Taz maybe one or two others) no one stood up for the jumper in the second half of that year year. The footy was embarassing. It hasn't been any worse since imo.

 

[Themanbun]

This is rewriting history to a certain degree.

Maj played 16 games of VFL footy over two seasons and about half were good. He struggled in some and looked very uncomfortable. I hated that we let him go but after watching him play some games in those years he was cooked. In one or two I watched he was wincing as he moved. Maybe if he'd rehabbed till 2023 he could have made it work.

Mason Wood averaged 8 or 9 games a year for us because he was constantly getting injured. In his entire career with us he played more than 15 games once and only played 9 in his first year at St Kilda. I probably would have kept Pittard and Williams at the time but wouldn't have kept him. But I dunno what actual leadership they'd have provided. Pittard was poor when he in the leadership group and Marley was a bit of a party boy (as was Higgo). Neither were consistent kicks either.

We weren't at the hub but maybe part of the reason they were delisted was that people who were decided they didn't want young players exposed to their attitudes.

Robbie Tarrant wanted two years and got those two years at Richmond. He played AFL in one of them. Ben Brown appears to have fallen out with players at the hub while he played 9 games for 8 goals after not signing for three years at $750Kpa. He played 13, 19, 7 and 6 games and kicked 25, 30, 11 and 7 goals in the following years. The same people who are whinging about about Lmac and Jy's contracts and would have been just as unhappy if we'd kept those guys given their output. Maybe we could have got something worked out with Taz to coach but as it was we offered him one year and he played one year.

I've changed my mind since then ... these opinions are all with hindsight but it was obvious even before we did it (the list cull) that we in for years of pain.

I agree Murphy should have stayed and I'd have preferred we kept Dumont, Atley and Anderson from the next two years as harder bodies with a bit more of an idea. But i think they all wanted to go home anyway.

I've seen people criticise the decisions to give Xerri and Larkey long contracts, to keep Xerri, the recruitment of Corr, Fisher and Stephens (even tho that actually improved our draft hand last year,) claim that all of our MSD picks are pus when they aren't, call Sheezel and Powell small mids and a whole bunch of other crap to justify a vendetta against someone cos we're losing games.

I'm not into witch hunts and people who belong in redneck mobs with torches and pitchforks wandering around drooling and screaming out "Burn him! Burn him!".

Sure make reasonable criticism if you like but don't forget the list was bad (everyone off this board said so for years and we hated them for it,) the relationships between players had potentially broken down and we showed nothing at all in the second half of that season. Apart from Lmac, Jy and Jed (and a few others - Goldy, Froggy, Taz maybe one or two others) no one stood up for the jumper in the second half of that year year. The footy was embarassing. It hasn't been any worse since imo.

Ferbs, you've put a lot of effort into your posts and I applaud that regardless of how differently we view each of those incidents.

But you haven't addressed the main point of contention, which is who those blokes were replaced with, owing to the hubris that we could just pluck better players out of the nether regions of the draft when we couldn't even nail first rounders at the time. Each of them would have 100% played more AFL footy and provided better leadership than the bottom half of our draft inclusions each and every year.

Ben Brown and Daw became CCJ and Josh Walker
Tarrant's role became Aiden Bonar's
Williams and Pittard became Atu and Perez

And so on and so forth

These guys were no world beaters but the idea that we could just pluck nobodies out and they'd be better was fanciful and had categorically been proven wrong.

 

[DocSholl]

Dumont wanted to stay and we made him wait until the end of the trade period before delisting him

 

[ferball]

Ferbs, you've put a lot of effort into your posts and I applaud that regardless of how differently we view each of those incidents.

But you haven't addressed the main point of contention, which is who those blokes were replaced with, owing to the hubris that we could just pluck better players out of the nether regions of the draft when we couldn't even nail first rounders at the time. Each of them would have 100% played more AFL footy and provided better leadership than the bottom half of our draft inclusions each and every year.

Ben Brown and Daw became CCJ and Josh Walker
Tarrant's role became Aiden Bonar's
Williams and Pittard became Atu and Perez

And so on and so forth

These guys were no world beaters but the idea that we could just pluck nobodies out and they'd be better was fanciful and had categorically been proven wrong.

I don't think its hubris, I think its a case of:

"**** we've got to do this so we'll make do with what we can and upgrade them at every opportunity."

And I think that is happening. (Cue gif)

 

[ferball]

BTW I think Perez would have been great without that second knee injury. He was tough, competitive, moved well, could kick (especially long 50m+ bullets) and could take a contested mark.

 

[ferball]

Keath, Lobb, Francis, Hamling, L. McDonald, Koschitzke, Blight, Chol, Frampton, McStay, Hogan, Wright, Weiderman, Sam Durdin lol



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Didn't those bolded players turn down our offers? Altho I read that on here so maybe not...

I also don't understand why people think Logan McDonald can play. He's like a slow uncontested version of Larkey without the accuracy.

Apart from about three of those players, Edwards, CCJ (yeah I know,) Free, Nyuon, Pink and Sellers are not as good. Corr Logue etc are outright better or look like better long term prospects imo.

 

[RightWingRoo]

The main problem we had in 2020, was that we narrowly avoided the spoon with a list age profile of a contender. Most players 27 and over of any club iirc. Similar situation to West Coast in 2022, being old and crap.

We had to have a significant clean out, the only player we delisted that I disagreed with was Dumont. Murphy didn't show that much with us, his improvement in the VFL has come with a change of position.
Wood was the definition of wasted potential, 27 and in and out of the side. His improvement at the Saints has been remarkable, good on him for extracting the digit and resurrecting his career.

Brown, Higgo and Taz all had one year at their new clubs, before their bodies gave out. All were cooked pretty quickly after leaving us, wouldn't have improved us much on field.
The problem is we haven't nailed those later picks and bargain trades like the Hawks have.
But every rebuild involves players being tried and cycled through, before a capable core comes together.

We moved on a lot who were cooked, spuds or late 20s role players who wouldn't be around when we came good.
We should've committed to a full rebuild in 2017, after the cash cowboys "aggressive reset" failed dismally. But we wasted 3 years and only began it after we collapsed totally with an aging list.
West Coast and Richmond followed the same path, but at least won flags with those groups.

 

[RightWingRoo]

Keath, Lobb, Francis, Hamling, L. McDonald, Koschitzke, Blight, Chol, Frampton, McStay, Hogan, Wright, Weiderman, Sam Durdin lol



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One gun, a few handy types and plenty of shitmen in that group.

 

[RightWingRoo]

I'm not sold on Brady and don't rate Clayton.
Would love Graham Wright as list manager. But think he wants a more senior job and not sure about how his relationship with Clarko is.

 

[Topparoo]

I think we need to look past sliding draft picks who come on the cheap but with long term injury woes. Hopefully B George recovers fully, but like Perez two knee recos take a severe physical toll. Starting his third season and yet to play a game. I hope the lad recovers and makes a successful career for himself.