It's time to go: John Barker

[hawkheart]

That's like one of Nostradamus' quatrains.

LoL!

 

[Gene Simmons]

Would love to get some views from Saints supporters regarding how they view the change in their gameplan post Barker.

You just need to look at Saints scoring to see the difference post Barker.

Saints of 2009/2010 have alot more firepower, more capable of kicking high scores, 2 Top 4 finishes...

This year we are level with them for points FOR, but they haven't had their best forward playing for most of the season...

 

[LuvMyHawks]

Surely it's not too much to ask, that we have TWO players in the forward line AT ALL TIMES!! Yesterday, again, Hooper kicked into the fwd 50, and guess what? NOBODY THERE AGAIN!!!..We must take these opportunities when they present, that could have been another goal for us, and that was just one example, of something that is happening every single week..
Just PLEASE leave a player or two in the attacking zone..Surely SIXTEEN players can help control the defensive side of the game.. I am lost for words at times, and believe me, that's saying something!!!

 

[mess]

For what its worth - I'm not saying Barks is a good coach/shit coach/coach's arseh*le - all I'm saying is that his game plan, and that of the rest of the groups', is dependant on the overall team's gameplan. End of story.

Be it a great gameplan, or a terrible one - Clarko should/would accept responsibility for it, and only those in the inner sanctum would know if JB, or anyone else for that matter, is doing their job to an acceptible level.

That's it, I'm done.

Fair enough. It's also fair enough that those who are not within the inner sanctum might suspect that the perceived under-performance of the teams forward line (which ostensibly would seem like our main strength) could have some bearing on how well the forward line coach is performing, and that said forward line coaches performance could be fairly judged on it's basis.

 

[Glenferrie Oval]

"The forward half is our real weakness now. The backline whilst not brilliant is settled and the midfield is loaded with our best players. But it is clear that when we get to 2-3 goals up we just cannot turn that into a 5-6 goal lead. The opposition always comes back and we're always under pressure. It happened again today and we could only really relax with 2 minutes left on the clock. The top teams put lesser teams away at that point there's something that stops us converting dominant midfield work into scoreboard pressure. "

Thats not the issue though, we have always employed a defensive game plan this year, the turning point after round 8 was that we had the personal back on the park, we started winning contested possessions and that actually resulted in gaining confidence winning matches and gaining some momentum.

In 2008 we also employed a defensive game plan but on the offensive we kept the ball moving constantly with handball, breaking of the lines, switching of the play and getting it in quickly and effectively to our forwards. We applied scoreboard pressure even though we had a major deficiency down back which is still present today......our offensive play is a real issue at the minute, yesterday we had a lot more inside 50's, but we either were to slow getting the ball inside 5o which resulted in the crowding of our forward line, errant kicks inside the 50 which happens and our structure in the sense that many times we had no forward present in our 50. This has been happening all year.

Couple of great posts here. For various reasons we just haven't clicked into the 2008 form. What the answer is I don't know. Based on current form we won't make it far in the finals (if we make it) and I'm hoping that while the window is open we can regain that form.

The forward line is not working at the moment so I guess we've got to try something else.

AND yes, even as far back as round two we should have been 4 or 5 goals up against Geelong, I'm not sure why we can't break away this year, but all these close finishes are driving me crazy.

 

[xellis]

Doesn't help the ole Buddy and Rough are a few fries short of a happy meal. Constantly leading to the same area, stupid decisions when they actually get the ball. Its anyones guess what Rough is going to do when he has the ball inside the 50.

Mind boggling our forward line!!

 

[dipper86]

Couple of great posts here. For various reasons we just haven't clicked into the 2008 form. What the answer is I don't know. Based on current form we won't make it far in the finals (if we make it) and I'm hoping that while the window is open we can regain that form.

The forward line is not working at the moment so I guess we've got to try something else.

AND yes, even as far back as round two we should have been 4 or 5 goals up against Geelong, I'm not sure why we can't break away this year, but all these close finishes are driving me crazy.

Our forward line should be our major strength, we just don't utilize it and instead play straight into the oppositions hands, as i said in other posts its the way we bring the ball out of the back 50 with stop start stagnant play, using the wings and never bringing it in through the corridor, we just don't give our forwards a chance for having the ball delivered to them quickly or allowing them to have one on ones.

I actually don't blame the forward line, I blame our offensive style of play, whether its a directive from Clarkson I don't know, either way we're not going to go close to winning another premiership if we don't take the game on and get the ball down quickly efficiently to the players that can actually finish of teams.

I always thought that St Kilda was a negative team, when we played them they were the ones taking the game on and breaking the lines. we weren't.

 

[themarkedman72]

the stop start build up is defo a factor.

Roughie is the one suffering the most from the counter attack, ball over the top, empty 50 because he is more a classic big man than Buddy.

Personally I think that its too much of a coincidence that st kilda sucked with Barker and then killed when he left and now we suck with him.

The guy has had two of the most potent forwards to ever play the game and he can neuter them...How he does it defies logic?!?!?!

I am tempted to give him one more year as I like JB the player but I despise his inept coaching so much we surely ahve to sack him now.

 

[Bronks]

the stop start build up is defo a factor.

Roughie is the one suffering the most from the counter attack, ball over the top, empty 50 because he is more a classic big man than Buddy.

Personally I think that its too much of a coincidence that st kilda sucked with Barker and then killed when he left and now we suck with him.

The guy has had two of the most potent forwards to ever play the game and he can neuter them...How he does it defies logic?!?!?!

I am tempted to give him one more year as I like JB the player but I despise his inept coaching so much we surely ahve to sack him now.

I am pretty sure if you are going to say things like that you should actually have data to back it up. The year JB left St Kilda was in 2008 in which they lost to the Hawks in the prelim final (I am pretty sure that doesn’t mean "they sucked"……..) and considering that was only Lyon's 2nd year I am pretty sure you can say that the players were just starting to get used to the game style he wanted them to play (which happens with ALL new coaches).
See that, there are a few points that actually have some truth to them and make sense. Who would have thought?!
The reason we need to play the game plan we do is because our backline is so weak hence our mids and forwards need to push up the ground to cover open spaces, hence you cant leave Buddy and Rough up forward. Watch the game next time you go and you will be able to see this happening pretty clear.

 

[BYWs Dimi Pumpa]

The biggest issue is the forwards coach at the club isn't getting the best out of the best twin tower set up in the league.

JB himself was at best an average player and if i had the choice (and obviously I don't) I would be looking at a replacement.

2008 was the roughs best year, but was it so good because of the fact that buddy franks had such an amazing year that opposition defenders did not focus as much on rough as they did franks, hence allowing rough to be 'left alone' more than what he is now.

In 2008, Franks and Rough combined to kick 188 goals and 139 behinds.
Number of shots on goal excluding out of bound/ out on the full = 327. This result took us to the never forgotten 2008 premiership... Oh the feeling!!!

In 2009, they kicked 127 Goals and 88 Behinds. Number of shots on goal = 205. Finished 9th

In 2010, so far they have kicked 95 goals and 79 behinds. Number of shots on goal = 174. Currently sitting 8th.

After 2008, Rough has had average year for a forward of his calibur and possibly below expectations in the eyes of some.

Rougheads season performances since debut

2005: 16 matches. Goals: 6 Behinds: 5
2006: 20 matches. Goals:12 Behinds: 5
2007: 22 matches. Goals:40 Behinds: 36
2008: 25 matches. Goals:75 Behinds: 51

JB Era

2009: 19 matches. Goals: 51 Behinds: 27
2010 to date: 20 matches. Goals: 44 Behind: 40

So 2010 probably not going as well as what it could have?? however he is having more shots on goal but almost 50% of his shots are behinds. If he was converting at 80% he would have kicked 62 Goals 22 behinds. Obvious confidence issue (JB>>???

Enter Beau Dowler. People have written him off. I still think he adds value. Third tall who can take another opposition defender. Interesting stats I come across comparing Franklin, Roughead and Dowler's stats for 2009 (Dowler has not played this year hence working off data from 2009).

http://finalsiren.com/PlayerCompare...&PlayerName4=&SelectedPlayers=1547,1526,1680,

Averaged more disposals and tackles compared to Roughead. Obviously not used up forward as much as he was in defence but I'd really love to see this guy get a crack because what ever forward game plan is being used at hawthorn now is not as effective as what it could be.

Or is rough maybe less of a player than what the hype suggests or is he going to get better as he gets older e.g Jason Dunstall???

Only time will tell and I will wait in anticipation.

 

[BYWs Dimi Pumpa]

Or JB invest in the following program:

http://www.coachafl.com/forwards/

Written by Simon Goosey

 

[Bronks]

The biggest issue is the forwards coach at the club isn't getting the best out of the best twin tower set up in the league.

JB himself was at best an average player and if i had the choice (and obviously I don't) I would be looking at a replacement.

2008 was the roughs best year, but was it so good because of the fact that buddy franks had such an amazing year that opposition defenders did not focus as much on rough as they did franks, hence allowing rough to be 'left alone' more than what he is now.

In 2008, Franks and Rough combined to kick 188 goals and 139 behinds.
Number of shots on goal excluding out of bound/ out on the full = 327. This result took us to the never forgotten 2008 premiership... Oh the feeling!!!

In 2009, they kicked 127 Goals and 88 Behinds. Number of shots on goal = 205. Finished 9th

In 2010, so far they have kicked 95 goals and 79 behinds. Number of shots on goal = 174. Currently sitting 8th.

After 2008, Rough has had average year for a forward of his calibur and possibly below expectations in the eyes of some.

Rougheads season performances since debut

2005: 16 matches. Goals: 6 Behinds: 5
2006: 20 matches. Goals:12 Behinds: 5
2007: 22 matches. Goals:40 Behinds: 36
2008: 25 matches. Goals:75 Behinds: 51

JB Era

2009: 19 matches. Goals: 51 Behinds: 27
2010 to date: 20 matches. Goals: 44 Behind: 40

So 2010 probably not going as well as what it could have?? however he is having more shots on goal but almost 50% of his shots are behinds. If he was converting at 80% he would have kicked 62 Goals 22 behinds. Obvious confidence issue (JB>>???

Enter Beau Dowler. People have written him off. I still think he adds value. Third tall who can take another opposition defender. Interesting stats I come across comparing Franklin, Roughead and Dowler's stats for 2009 (Dowler has not played this year hence working off data from 2009).

http://finalsiren.com/PlayerCompare...&PlayerName4=&SelectedPlayers=1547,1526,1680,

Averaged more disposals and tackles compared to Roughead. Obviously not used up forward as much as he was in defence but I'd really love to see this guy get a crack because what ever forward game plan is being used at hawthorn now is not as effective as what it could be.

Or is rough maybe less of a player than what the hype suggests or is he going to get better as he gets older e.g Jason Dunstall???

Only time will tell and I will wait in anticipation.

while your doing that stats comparisons of Buddy and Rough how about you do the same comparison of the onballers and contested footy and possessions? I am pretty sure that will help answer a few of your points cos last time I checked you need the onballers to get the footy to the forwards and the onballers were down badly last year!

BTW, pretty tuff call on JB saying he was "at best an average player" considering he single handedly got us to the 2001 prelim as well as won the goal kicking at the club and came 3rd in the B&F.