Jack Riewoldt will be the AFL's best KPF in 2012

[Ferdinand Lewis]

Still just a pipe dream at this stage but Jack plus two 200cm key forward is a promising forward line set up for the yellow and black.

Further more I would argue there is not that much pressure on McBean.

There is only two or three spots for key forward.

1. Jack.
2. Tyrone.

Maric is capable of playing as a forward. Elton, Griffiths, Astbury are also chasing that spot alone with McBean.

With Aaron Edwards and McGaune as the short term options.

I feel Richmonds list is a much more healthy shape than (in regards to key tall, and other wise) than previous decades

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Franklin isn't a full forward, he's a tall HFF'er imo.

Fair enough.

Absolutely. Doesn't judge the flight of the ball well enough to be a classic FF. Needs the space/ broken play that the half forward line provides to be most effective.

Most effective at half forward but not sure about not judging the ball in flight though. Despite it being the weakest of his array of strengths, Franklin actually takes more marks per game and more marks inside 50 than Jack Riewoldt (it's very close). He's much better at it than people give him credit for- it's just that because he is so good at ground level (and as such, is so non traditional) than people underrate his aerial (and more traditional) abilities. Even contested marking, which is Riewoldt's trump card, sees Franklin average a measly 0.07 less. Franklin also gets a lot of ground ball by judging the flight better and working his opponent under the ball - which makes sense as his ground level ability is usually far superior than that of big KPD's.

(I will concede that his marking has been a bit down this year (4.2 marks per game/Riwoldt 4.9) but it has nothing to do with judging the flight as he has been getting his hands to the ball but is very tentative with one hand (reinjured thumb speculation) and either using his other hand to tap on to teammates advantage or occassionally fluffing the mark)

 

[Madd Dawg Morg]

Fair enough.



Most effective at half forward but not sure about not judging the ball in flight though. Despite it being the weakest of his array of strengths, Franklin actually takes more marks per game and more marks inside 50 than Jack Riewoldt (it's very close). He's much better at it than people give him credit for- it's just that because he is so good at ground level (and as such, is so non traditional) than people underrate his aerial (and more traditional) abilities. Even contested marking, which is Riewoldt's trump card, sees Franklin average a measly 0.07 less. Franklin also gets a lot of ground ball by judging the flight better and working his opponent under the ball - which makes sense as his ground level ability is usually far superior than that of big KPD's.

(I will concede that his marking has been a bit down this year (4.2 marks per game/Riwoldt 4.9) but it has nothing to do with judging the flight as he has been getting his hands to the ball but is very tentative with one hand (reinjured thumb speculation) and either using his other hand to tap on to teammates advantage or occassionally fluffing the mark)

I'm always just amazed at how often he runs under the flight of the ball. In fairness i haven't watched Hawthorn as much this season so this may be a trait he is rectifying. He's certainly better body on body than Jack but i do think Jack times his run and jump at the footy a lot better.

 

[Ron The Bear]

Griffiths hasn't shown very much to command a spot in the side. There's a lot of pressure being placed on this young McBean.

I don't think Vickery helps Riewoldt as he should. Ty in my opinion has been a shambles at pick 8. So much potential, he should be doing a lot more to make Riewoldt an even better player.

Agree on Griffiths. Ideally McBean will be allowed to develop at his own pace and not be rushed into the seniors before he's ready.

On the contrary, Vickery is shaping nicely for a barely-23yo ruckman/forward, especially given past shoulder issues. At the same age:

Hawkins 197 98 goals
Tippett 202 89
Westhoff 199 76
Petrie 197 69
Vickery 200 65
Koschitzke 197 61
Naitanui 201 59
Ryder 197 49
Hille 202 42
Hale 201 36
Clark 199 35
Goldstein 201 31
Bradley 198 26
Cox 203 24

It's customary to get impatient with him - I'm guilty at times - but on Sunday he served notice that he's going to be a serious force in future years.

Anyway, Vickery has his own bagging thread.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

I'm always just amazed at how often he runs under the flight of the ball. In fairness i haven't watched Hawthorn as much this season so this may be a trait he is rectifying. He's certainly better body on body than Jack but i do think Jack times his run and jump at the footy a lot better.

You may be right. Although, as I said, a deliberate tacic of Franklin is to move himself and his opponent under the ball then turn back and use his pace and ground level ability to gather the loose ball. It works on a number of levels as usually his opponent is as good as him in the air but does not have his ground level ability, agility or pace. For most KPD's spoiling is their bread and butter and this makes them very uncomfortable. It also allows Buddy to run in and have shots from close range rather than a hit and miss set shot.

The second part of you post intrigues me because I feel Franklin is a good judge in flight (as stated) but not as good at positioning - whereby he often finds himself trying to mark the ball from behind and gives a lot of frees away by being overzealous (non subtle) in holding his ground/getting position.

 

[King Of The Hille]

Agree on Griffiths. Ideally McBean will be allowed to develop at his own pace and not be rushed into the seniors before he's ready.

On the contrary, Vickery is shaping nicely for a barely-23yo ruckman/forward, especially given past shoulder issues. At the same age:

Hawkins 197 98 goals
Tippett 202 89
Westhoff 199 76
Petrie 197 69
Vickery 200 65
Koschitzke 197 61
Naitanui 201 59
Ryder 197 49
Hille 202 42
Hale 201 36
Clark 199 35
Goldstein 201 31
Bradley 198 26
Cox 203 24

It's customary to get impatient with him - I'm guilty at times - but on Sunday he served notice that he's going to be a serious force in future years.

Anyway, Vickery has his own bagging thread.

He does spend 80% of his time on field in the forward half though, does he not? In comparison with young key forwards?
I'm sure he'd be pretty far back. I don't think he'll ever be a ruckman.

Regardless this is all pointless, he should be doing more to take the pressure of Jack. McGuane did a better job when he as in the side.

 

[NUFC Tiger]

if hes the best KPF in the AFL (which he isnt) then it shows how there is a lack of key forwards out there.

Luckily Hogan, Daniher, Cameron and Boyd are all coming through an will all be way better than Riewoldt.

Rookie troll

 

[NUFC Tiger]

By 1 goal dude, come on LMFAO.

@RonTheBear put you in your place.

He's clutching at straws man - their season has been a massive disappointment and they might miss finals. Kennedy winning the Coleman is probably the last hope to have some success this year.

Maybe he's still a bit upset about that 10 goal haul JR8 kicked against them back in 2010

Let the footy world underrate Jack, he does the business for us and that's all that matters

 

[Ron The Bear]

He does spend 80% of his time on field in the forward half though, does he not? In comparison with young key forwards?
I'm sure he'd be pretty far back. I don't think he'll ever be a ruckman.

Regardless this is all pointless, he should be doing more to take the pressure of Jack. McGuane did a better job when he as in the side.

Yeah, 20/80's about right at this stage. If he doesn't make the transition to an 80/20 ruckman/forward, I doubt he'll be a noteworthy player.

Frankly I'm surprised the McGuane ploy worked as long as it did.

Suspect at least some of the Vickery criticism stems from getting burnt in fantasy footy when he had bung shoulders last year.

 

[MightyTiger]

Richmond (and other supporters) might disagree with me and that's fine but I have a problem with Riewoldt in that I think he's just not big enough, strong enough and may even lack the work rate to be a true CHF and therefore in these days of minimal talls on the ground he becomes some what of a side show and not an important structural player.

In an ideal world I think you have a ruck forward who is mobile and capable of playing from the goal square and also from the forward pocket or up the ground. The tigers have that in Vickery who is an oustanding talent but also has a lot of the Kosi's about him. And by that I mean the early-mid career Kosi who could be sublime one minute and look like the next superstar then go missing for a month.

You then have a CHF like a Cloke, Hawkins, N. Riewoldt who comes up to meet the ball as a target for midfielders and then also gets back into the 50 to mark and goal.

Then you have a third marking tall who can be anyone from a Lindsay Thomas to a Stevie J to Eddie Betts to Jack Gunston. That's where I see Riewoldt ideally suited.

So if I was Richmond I'd still be on the look out for the true power CHF to free Riewoldt up to be the 3rd tall from the goal square who plays as a FF and kicks bags. At the moment they are going with the 3 prong attack of Edwards, Vickery and Riewoldt which is certainly fine on a talent level but I have my concerns about the structure. If you are pressed back at half back late in a final and you have to get a goal you need someone at CHF to come provide a target and I don't see any of those forwards doing that against a gun CHB and a ruckman dropping back. Sure if someone then marks the ball from there I'd love to have Riewoldt inside 50 as he's probably the best in the league at clever leading and strong marks on the lead or launching at packs and same for Vickery who will have a height/athleticism gap on most defenders but the problem might be getting it in.

That's because he's a FF.

 

[King Of The Hille]

Yeah, 20/80's about right at this stage. If he doesn't make the transition to an 80/20 ruckman/forward, I doubt he'll be a noteworthy player.

Frankly I'm surprised the McGuane ploy worked as long as it did.

Suspect at least some of the Vickery criticism stems from getting burnt in fantasy footy when he had bung shoulders last year.

Stupid decision makiung has cost him a lot of fans. Obviously off topic from Riewoldt, but he should be helping him more.

 

[Ron The Bear]

Stupid decision makiung has cost him a lot of fans. Obviously off topic from Riewoldt, but he should be helping him more.

Might be time to put your prophetic powers to the test again and start a thread. "Ty Vickery will be the bust of the 2008 draft".

 

[King Of The Hille]

Might be time to put your prophetic powers to the test again and start a thread. "Ty Vickery will be the bust of the 2008 draft".

I'm only giving you my opinion here, and we can both admit he's been slightly dissapointing. I hopes he turns it around for Richmond's sake.

My prophetic powers are used once a year, and the Vickery topic won't be it.

 

[Ron The Bear]

I'm only giving you my opinion here, and we can both admit he's been slightly dissapointing. I hopes he turns it around for Richmond's sake.

My prophetic powers are used once a year, and the Vickery topic won't be it.

After his first two years, I was underwhelmed and questioned whether his selection was unduly influenced by his old man being a club employee. Pre-season 2011 was the first time I saw anything above average from him. 2012 he shouldn't have played after being injured in the pre-season; 2011 and 2013 he's looked very promising, even if he remains inconsistent for the time being.

 

[Rockford]

He's clutching at straws man - their season has been a massive disappointment and they might miss finals. Kennedy winning the Coleman is probably the last hope to have some success this year.

Settle down. They may miss Finals, but I'd have thought you'd know not to count your chickens before they hatch. If West Coast do make the Finals, then it could well be at the expense of Richmond.

 

[master bate]

That's because he's a FF.

Yes which I go on to acknowledge so you can place your facepalm to yourself.

Or you can read the rest of my post where I spell out my views that FF's aren't as valuable as CHF's as dominant key forwards these days. Ie. Riewoldt in the 1990's would be a star but now he is a player who's talents don't fit naturally with this style of football employed by most clubs including Richmond.

And that Jack is often playing up the ground now to give space to Vickery which is also because you can't be expected to change from the ruck to CHF that's a bad match up. So maybe face palm your coaches if you don't agree with that.

Therefore I wonder how Richmond will go winning a flag with Aaron Edwards at CHF and Jack in his best position or alternatively playing their best forward out of position to cope with the modern game. And th e alternative is to develop a CHF for the future now and not play Edwards or McGuane.

In a lot of ways I'd like to see a coach buck the trend and change to an attacking game plan. Richmond have the tools in a fleet of quick skilled midfielders and Vickery and Riewoldt. No doubt September style footy and defense wins premierships but also innovation wins premierships. Brisbane beat Essendon using sheer size, then Port got them with skill, Sydney and West Coast negated skill with all over contested brand, which Geelong blew past with fast running up tempo footy until Hawthorn invented the press which Coll refined then Sydney played this rebound footy that pressures then counter attacks like soccer.

Otherwise it won't be Jack Riewoldt AFL's best KPF and unstoppable goal machine but Jack Riewoldt - decent FF who also comes up the ground and is mediocre as a CHF and is an underutilized talent.

 

[theflea]

Richmond (and other supporters) might disagree with me and that's fine but I have a problem with Riewoldt in that I think he's just not big enough, strong enough and may even lack the work rate to be a true CHF and therefore in these days of minimal talls on the ground he becomes some what of a side show and not an important structural player.

In an ideal world I think you have a ruck forward who is mobile and capable of playing from the goal square and also from the forward pocket or up the ground. The tigers have that in Vickery who is an oustanding talent but also has a lot of the Kosi's about him. And by that I mean the early-mid career Kosi who could be sublime one minute and look like the next superstar then go missing for a month.

You then have a CHF like a Cloke, Hawkins, N. Riewoldt who comes up to meet the ball as a target for midfielders and then also gets back into the 50 to mark and goal.

Then you have a third marking tall who can be anyone from a Lindsay Thomas to a Stevie J to Eddie Betts to Jack Gunston. That's where I see Riewoldt ideally suited.

So if I was Richmond I'd still be on the look out for the true power CHF to free Riewoldt up to be the 3rd tall from the goal square who plays as a FF and kicks bags. At the moment they are going with the 3 prong attack of Edwards, Vickery and Riewoldt which is certainly fine on a talent level but I have my concerns about the structure. If you are pressed back at half back late in a final and you have to get a goal you need someone at CHF to come provide a target and I don't see any of those forwards doing that against a gun CHB and a ruckman dropping back. Sure if someone then marks the ball from there I'd love to have Riewoldt inside 50 as he's probably the best in the league at clever leading and strong marks on the lead or launching at packs and same for Vickery who will have a height/athleticism gap on most defenders but the problem might be getting it in.

Jack is a FF and not a traditional CHF and in fact most fwds these days aren't either. N Riewoldt and J Brown are relics of the past. Cloke used to be like that but he is told to stay at home more. In fact imo the tigers don't play the game that suits the traditional CHF role and if we did we would play Griffiths in that role.

 

[Jewbacca]

You may be right. Although, as I said, a deliberate tacic of Franklin is to move himself and his opponent under the ball then turn back and use his pace and ground level ability to gather the loose ball. It works on a number of levels as usually his opponent is as good as him in the air but does not have his ground level ability, agility or pace. For most KPD's spoiling is their bread and butter and this makes them very uncomfortable. It also allows Buddy to run in and have shots from close range rather than a hit and miss set shot.

I think it's partly to do with his hand issues as well. Always has his hands heavily strapped and to be truthfull he's probably smashed them up by not being as clean a grab as most others. I don't think he has the confidence in his ability to clunk it like the riewoldt's, cloke etc. Every now and then he does clunk one and it looks awesome, turning blokes around is probably more productive for him though. He probably should take more marks given the amount of ball directed his way, but i think most opposition fans are glad he doesn't. How good would he be if could grab it like Roughy?!

 

[lmach]

He's clutching at straws man - their season has been a massive disappointment and they might miss finals. Kennedy winning the Coleman is probably the last hope to have some success this year.

Maybe he's still a bit upset about that 10 goal haul JR8 kicked against them back in 2010

Let the footy world underrate Jack, he does the business for us and that's all that matters

When he's not throwing the toys out of the cot.

 

[Madd Dawg Morg]

Jack is a FF and not a traditional CHF and in fact most fwds these days aren't either. N Riewoldt and J Brown are relics of the past. Cloke used to be like that but he is told to stay at home more. In fact imo the tigers don't play the game that suits the traditional CHF role and if we did we would play Griffiths in that role.

Yep. I think after pushing Jack further up the ground earlier in the season he has gone back to playing deep with Edwards leading outside the 50 and even Vickery pushing further up. Our possession style of footy mean we try and retain the ball through the middle and half back rather than kicking it to a big contest 70m out. This has been a league wide trend since teams started putting their damaging ball users across half back in the hope of setting up their scoring opportunities from defense.

This may be to our detriment in the end but with the style of footy we play a traditional CHF is not necessary. Will be interesting to see how the forward line functions in the coming years if McBean continues his rate of progress and forces his way into the side sooner rather than later. Having 2 blokes 200+cm in the forward line, with Jack still deep, is certainly not common.

 

[Upgrayedd]

He does alright.

 

[MightyTiger]

Yes which I go on to acknowledge so you can place your facepalm to yourself.

Or you can read the rest of my post where I spell out my views that FF's aren't as valuable as CHF's as dominant key forwards these days. Ie. Riewoldt in the 1990's would be a star but now he is a player who's talents don't fit naturally with this style of football employed by most clubs including Richmond.

And that Jack is often playing up the ground now to give space to Vickery which is also because you can't be expected to change from the ruck to CHF that's a bad match up. So maybe face palm your coaches if you don't agree with that.

Therefore I wonder how Richmond will go winning a flag with Aaron Edwards at CHF and Jack in his best position or alternatively playing their best forward out of position to cope with the modern game. And th e alternative is to develop a CHF for the future now and not play Edwards or McGuane.

In a lot of ways I'd like to see a coach buck the trend and change to an attacking game plan. Richmond have the tools in a fleet of quick skilled midfielders and Vickery and Riewoldt. No doubt September style footy and defense wins premierships but also innovation wins premierships. Brisbane beat Essendon using sheer size, then Port got them with skill, Sydney and West Coast negated skill with all over contested brand, which Geelong blew past with fast running up tempo footy until Hawthorn invented the press which Coll refined then Sydney played this rebound footy that pressures then counter attacks like soccer.

Otherwise it won't be Jack Riewoldt AFL's best KPF and unstoppable goal machine but Jack Riewoldt - decent FF who also comes up the ground and is mediocre as a CHF and is an underutilized talent.

Have you even watched a Richmond game? Riewoldt, Vickery and Edwards and or McGuane all take there man out of the F50 to give other forwards space, Riewoldt isn't a CHF, he's your traditional FF who has exceptional reading of the ball in the air and extremely good body work.

It's a reason why when Richo and Schultz left Riewoldt truly shined, the FF position became his and he became the #1 target.

I suggest you watch more games to see how our F50 functions, because at the moment you are way off the mark.

 

[Hawkas1988]

Jack isn't the best KPF in the comp but he is still one of the best. Very consistent and does his job well for the Tigers.

Franklin is the best, most people would agree, then after him Jack could be considered the next best.

Great footballer and every club would love to have him

 

[WCEbrody]

Probably already been said in the thread but Jack is overrated by some Richmond supporters and underrated by other teams supporters. He'll probably be in the top 5 KPF for most of his career, so he's always going to be a good player but i'm not sure if he'll ever be the best forward in the game.

On 2013 form i'd go Roughead and Kennedy to make the AA team at this stage and N.Riewoldt,J.Riewoldt,Cloke and Franklin not far behind.

 

[MightyTiger]

Probably already been said in the thread but Jack is overrated by some Richmond supporters and underrated by other teams supporters. He'll probably be in the top 5 KPF for most of his career, so he's always going to be a good player but i'm not sure if he'll ever be the best forward in the game.

On 2013 form i'd go Roughead and Kennedy to make the AA team at this stage and N.Riewoldt,J.Riewoldt,Cloke and Franklin not far behind.

How do you over rate a dual Coleman medallist?