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AFLW 2024 - Round 10 - Chat, game threads, injury lists, team lineups and more.
Jimmy Bartel
- Thread starter Hu$tler
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Patty Healey
All Australian
Lucky to be in the top 20 IMO.
Nah, I thought it was a free kick and have been saying so all day on BF...its your blunt assessment of something that you had no knowledge about re my opinion that ticked me off.
No one thinks Bartel is shit. Even you can't bring yourself to say that. Bartel isn't saying people think he's going crap cos he plays different positions, it's because he went from being an elite brownlow-medal-winning midfielder racking up 30 touches per game to now getting 20 touches - sometimes less - and not having a defined role. It's the stark contrast between the two that have people like you confused.
Being a 'utility' isn't glamorous and it's not a role that's going to get hyped up much, but having Bartel in that role is invaluable to the Cats and that's been proven multiple times. It's not a coincidence he happens to impact the big moments in matches, that is now his job.
Patty Healey
All Australian
Go on...
- Banned
- #256
I've never said he was shit, have I?
Yes, he says that people think he's going crap as a result of having changing roles.
I think being a defender is an unglamorous role, the same can't be said of utilities, and I've given a few examples of that.
If you want all-ground utilities then Koutoufides, Hird, Cornes, Pavlich, Goodes, Buckley are some of the biggest stars in the modern game.
If you want midfield/forwards then Matthews, Ablett, Akermanis, the list goes on.
Bartel's statement in that article is odd, to say the least, since there's no reason you can't be a star utility.
- Banned
- #257
but you rate him now all of a sudden, right?
Is was or will be doesn't mean is.
I rate him according to his actual ability as do most. Hawkins has to perform to get the kudos.
Hey he won a BnF over there didn't he? And an AA in 2012? Credible performer, club's leading goalscorer. They don't give you those awards for nothing. There are some awards that have to be earnt.
Then who we would have to laugh at around here? He may be deluded and insane, but he keeps us entertained.
I already addressed that: "he went from being an elite brownlow-medal-winning midfielder racking up 30 touches per game to now getting 20 touches - sometimes less - and not having a defined role. It's the stark contrast between the two that have people like you confused."
We're talking about a very distinct change in role with Bartel, not guys who played predominantly one position and occasionally ran around elsewhere. With the exception of Kouta, most of those guys are/were still largely defined by one position. Pavlich still plays forward a lot or otherwise runs in the middle. He's always going to get attention playing these positions, but you don't see him ever playing a negating role like Bartel sometimes now does, and these are the kind of roles that often go unheralded. Bartel has been outside the top 10 for starts in the middle at Geelong for a few years now.
Again, they're still going to get headlines playing those roles.
He actually said he'd like to be an elite utility so he wasn't inferring that at all. Just that the stark contrast between what he was and what he is now has the effect of people thinking that he has dropped off his game.
- Jan 30, 2006
- 11,531
- 10,336
- AFL Club
- Essendon
- Moderator
- #260
lets play nicely
Balme actually said on SEN that he had a fracture in his foot and would have surgery on it. Not "some soreness on and off". So you know, sorry to ruin you with "facts" and i have enjoyed reading all the hilarity you make up.
So much trolling in this thread, no surprises a few Hawks fans are skulking around.
A sane summary is:
Bartel is a proven champion who has won numerous matches for the Cats.
He was a little down on form last year but stepped up in some big games and did have an injury for much of the year.
He no longer plays dedicated midfield and instead moves around the ground doing less flashy stuff. This is his role now.
He is still an extremely good player and still influences games and produces the big/important stuff when the chips are down.
Anyone who disagrees with any of those propositions either hasn't watched him play or has some personal issue which causes them to talk him down despite the facts.
A sane summary is:
Bartel is a proven champion who has won numerous matches for the Cats.
He was a little down on form last year but stepped up in some big games and did have an injury for much of the year.
He no longer plays dedicated midfield and instead moves around the ground doing less flashy stuff. This is his role now.
He is still an extremely good player and still influences games and produces the big/important stuff when the chips are down.
Anyone who disagrees with any of those propositions either hasn't watched him play or has some personal issue which causes them to talk him down despite the facts.
If you are going to be the guru of all things grammar, perhaps you should learn to differentiate between 'then' and 'than'!
- Banned
- #264
Interesting how the Geelong fans play down the importance of possessions and talk about Bartel playing his "role" and making an impact in the big moments of matches. Apparently he is "underrated" because the commentators don't bat each other off and call him a superstar every time he touches the ball like they do with Joel Selwood.
These same Geelong fans get annoyed at the TV commentators' hype with Cyril Rioli. This in turn causes them to put shit on Rioli at every opportunity. Apparently Cyril is no good because he doesn't rack up a heap of cheap possession, despite him playing his "role" across HF and making an impact, winning important contests, creating turnovers, drawing extra defenders to him and setting up scoring chances.
They think Travis Varcoe is better, Harley Bennell is better, Lewis Jetta is better... Any indigenous player who happens to be in a bit of form and played a good game on the weekend, that guy is better than Rioli. Apparently this is not being a troll, but they label Hodgepodge as a troll because he doesn't think Bartel should be considered among the Top 20 AFL players.
I just wish they'd make up their minds about some of this stuff.
Are statistics and possessions overrated?
Do we hate it when commentators dribble on about players or do we want them to do this?
FWIW, I think Bartel is a really good footballer who receives all the recognition he is worth and then some, so I'm not sure what he is complaining about. There are plenty of footballers better than him who never won a Brownlow. Is he a champion? Possibly. Depends on how loose your definition of the word is.
Big Fozza
Premiership Player
- Banned
- #266
You obviously can't read. I never compared Jimmy and Cyril. That would be dumb. One is a 29 year old midfield utility player, the other is a 23 year old half forward. I compared the Geelong fans' tendency to downplay the importance of Bartel's stats and describe him as a champion, but point towards Rioli's stats as proof that he is just an ordinary footballer, overrated, etc
It's a double standard.
I also compared people's disdain for media hype, but when Bartel doesn't receive media hype they complain.
So I ask again, are statistics and possessions overrated?
And do we hate it when commentators dribble on about players or are we okay about this?
Most reasonable Cats fans would acknowledge that Rioli is very good. Personally, I think he is being misused, he is much more dangerous when he is used to generate pace and opportunities moving the ball through the midfield than languishing in the forward 50. What's the point of him sitting there when, e.g., the Cats suddenly had the ascendency in the middle on Easter Monday? Rioli should have been thrown in the middle to use his pace and skills to try to win back control.
One reason people get frustrated is because Bruce & co still crap on about Rioli even when his (undoubted) skills are being wasted parked in the forward pocket while virtually ignoring someone like Varcoe despite him wreaking absolute havoc through the midfield in exactly the kind of way that would make Bruuuuuuuce and co blow their load repeatedly about Rioli. Not Rioli or Hawk's fans' fault, but hypocritical and annoying nonetheless.
With Bartel, you have to appreciate that Cats fans have seen this bloke consistently influence games over and over again despite being surrounded by a seriously great team over the last decade. He's been through quieter patches before, but without any doubt whatsoever he always comes back. Most Cats fans would pick him if you had to pick one Cats player to be the one to do something ridiculous and inspirational. So a known Hawks troll talking him down on the basis of some half arsed observations which don't gel with the evidence of hundreds of games of footy is always going to cop a beating. Especially when in the most recent game he racked up 11 tackles, 19 touches and kicked the winning goal despite Geelong not touching the ball in the first half and him not playing in the midfield.
Yes. They correlate to some degree with quality players, but high possessions do not always equate to a good game and low possessions do not always equate to a bad game.
The word is "drivel", and yes.
I guess you could summarise the issue as: Bartel has been a more important and more influential player across his career to date than Rioli, yet if you could somehow measure media hyperbole, Rioli has had a shedload more of it than Bartel. Which is irritating for Cats fans, and informs the view that Bartel is underrated.
Big Fozza
Premiership Player
it took a whole 11 pages for them to bring Cyril into a Jimmy thread. that's actually not too bad
Big Fozza
Premiership Player
most posts in here by geelong and non geelong fans say that Jimmy stands up in big games when it counts - that's why he is a champion.
hawthorn and geelong fans are like ex's from a very volatile relationship, who both cant stand the other due to their perceived ongoing 'obsession' and inability to leave them alone.
face it: bartel et al work most of you hawk fools into a lather; and cyril and co do the same to a lot of cats idiots.
footy tribalism, amplified by what the internet and forums does to most people = a big waste of time.
bartel is a good to great player who we all think stands up for us when we need him.
cyril is talented as f***, and is one silky mover.
now, who is up for one more lap? circular arguments are great cardio.
face it: bartel et al work most of you hawk fools into a lather; and cyril and co do the same to a lot of cats idiots.
footy tribalism, amplified by what the internet and forums does to most people = a big waste of time.
bartel is a good to great player who we all think stands up for us when we need him.
cyril is talented as f***, and is one silky mover.
now, who is up for one more lap? circular arguments are great cardio.
He said his last 15 mins were vanilla. I think he was being very generous myself.
- Banned
- #274
That's just the TV networks selling the game, keeping people glued to the TV, etc. Every team has their hyped-up stars who get all the limelight. One or two players receive all the commentary hype and the slow-motion montages while other less-heralded, equally valuable teammates don't get the same attention.
If Bruuuuuuce would shut the f*** up about how awesome Selwood and Hawkins are, he might find the time to acknowledge the good work of Kelly, Bartel, Enright, Varcoe, etc.
If Bruuuuuuce would shut the f*** up about how delicious Cyril and Buddy are, he might acknowledge the good work of Mitchell, Hodge, Sewell, Breust, etc
But he won't shut the f*** up because he is a c**khead and Channel 7 think this is the best way to promote their coverage and boost ratings.
Yeah, I like Jimmy Bartel. Very good player. I can totally understand why you like him. I've seen him play enough good games versus Hawthorn to last me one lifetime.
I can sort of understand the bee up hodgepodge's bum over Bartel. While I don't agree 100%, but I can sort of see where he coming from. Normally the superstars and top-rated players need to dominate every week or people wonder what's wrong with them. Bartel escapes this kind of scrutiny to a degree. People seem to rate him by his best performances in the big games, or the match-winning final quarter rather than his output over four quarters every weekend.
Geelong fans counter by saying, "Yeah, but he plays a role." I can totally understand that too. Luke Hodge would've probably won a Brownlow Medal at some point from 2005-2010 if he'd been left to rack up stats in the centre and the coach didn't use him to play various roles around the ground or plug the gaping holes in our backline. It didn't make him any less of a player in my eyes.
I just wish people would be more consistent when they are debating the merits of footballers. The match-winning contributions of Bartel, Scarlett, Rioli, Goodes and Naitanui prove that a player's impact on the game has yet to be adequately measured by statistics (the published stats that people use on here, at least)
That was the only reason I brought up Cyril's name. It seemed quite pertinent to this discussion. Sheepdog midfielders get rated higher than Bartel because they accumulate 30 meaningless touches and Jimmy only gets 19-20. Idiots rate Milne aead of Rioli in the BF Top 50 because he plays closer to goal, kicks a couple of goals every game and Cyril 'only' gets 16 touches.
Somtimes I wonder whether people ever get along to a game and watch these guys.
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