Jimmy Bartel

[CF]

I know it's been said before but I really don't get the comparison of Bartel & Cyril going on in this thread. Both play different roles and positions most of the time. Jimmy's record speaks for itself and while he may not be the greatest player ever in the history of the game, he has certainly done enough to be given his due respect. Cyril is a very talented player with that X-factor we all love in small forwards. He is great to watch when he is on song that is for sure. Judging players purely on stats is flawed to begin with but people still do it.

The Geelong/Hawthorn rivalry is epic. I get that. I enjoy it too and have given my fair share of digs at the Hawks fans over the years as well. However, sometimes we all need to step back and take a deep breath, as it's only a game.

 

[Chewy]

The word is "drivel"

Hmm. I' knew the difference between "dribble" and "drivel" and always scoffed at people's incorrect usage on here, but I never knew "drivelling" was also a verb. Cheers.

I guess you could summarise the issue as: Bartel has been a more important and more influential player across his career to date than Rioli, yet if you could somehow measure media hyperbole, Rioli has had a shedload more of it than Bartel. Which is irritating for Cats fans, and informs the view that Bartel is underrated.

See my previous post.

Media hype is never distributed equally to all AFL footballers according to their actual output.

Dayne Beams has one great season and suddenly he is a superstar of the game
Michael Hurley has yet to play more than a handful of good games in a season and he is a star
If Bryce Gibbs was taken with the 27th pick in the 2006 draft, would anyone talk about him?

I reckon when people discuss the all-time greatest players, the media hyperbole works in Gary Ablett Sr's favour. No player ever received more hype than Ablett did for his spectacular play. A contrast to Jason Dunstall, who never received any of the hype. He wasn't flashy like Ablett. He didn't take big speckies. Mr Efficiency, he was. He didn't look as awesome as Lockett. He didn't take the big pack marks.

People have always talked down Dunstall's accomplishments. I would argue he was better than both Lockett and Ablett. Seriously. In my opinion, he was. Back then I could have a decent argument about it. Nowadays, people think I'm trolling. It's ludicrous. Dunstall was one of the greatest players of all time. He performed week after week, with little or no fanfare, no hype, no carry-on or dramas. His teammates received most of the limelight and "boring" Dunstall just got on with job, kicked his 8 goals, then went home.

It's different now he works in the media, but Dunstall the footballer had a very similar demeanour to Jimmy Bartel. Unflappable. Quiet. Confident. All business. No histrionics. You never see them get angry.

 

[Chewy]

I know it's been said before but I really don't get the comparison of Bartel & Cyril going on in this thread. .

Try reading the thread instead of jumping to conclusions

Maybe then you'll understand nobody was actually comparing them as footballers

We were discussing the "recognition" that footballers receive and also the idiocy of rating a player purely by their stats

 

[cayze]

Hmm. I' knew the difference between "dribble" and "drivel" and always scoffed at people's incorrect usage on here, but I never knew "drivelling" was also a verb. Cheers.

See my previous post.

Media hype is never distributed equally to all AFL footballers according to their actual output.

Dayne Beams has one great season and suddenly he is a superstar of the game
Michael Hurley has yet to play more than a handful of good games in a season and he is a star
If Bryce Gibbs was taken with the 27th pick in the 2006 draft, would anyone talk about him?

I reckon when people discuss the all-time greatest players, the media hyperbole works in Gary Ablett Sr's favour. No player ever received more hype than Ablett did for his spectacular play. A contrast to Jason Dunstall, who never received any of the hype. He wasn't flashy like Ablett. He didn't take big speckies. Mr Efficiency, he was. He didn't look as awesome as Lockett. He didn't take the big pack marks.

People have always talked down Dunstall's accomplishments. I would argue he was better than both Lockett and Ablett. Seriously. In my opinion, he was. Back then I could have a decent argument about it. Nowadays, people think I'm trolling. It's ludicrous. Dunstall was one of the greatest players of all time. He performed week after week, with little or no fanfare, no hype, no carry-on or dramas. His teammates received most of the limelight and "boring" Dunstall just got on with job, kicked his 8 goals, then went home.

It's different now he works in the media, but Dunstall the footballer had a very similar demeanour to Jimmy Bartel. Unflappable. Quiet. Confident. All business. No histrionics. You never see them get angry.

Why does every single one of your posts turn into unwarranted whinging about how Geelong/their players aren't as good as what people believe and Hawthorn is hard done by/their players relentlessly underrated.

All you do is whine uneccessarily/troll.

Bartel is a champion.

 

[Senatorguesty]

Why does every single one of your posts turn into unwarranted whinging about how Geelong/their players aren't as good as what people believe and Hawthorn is hard done by/their players relentlessly underrated.

All you do is whine uneccessarily/troll.

Bartel is a champion.

You would think the whole 3 flags > 1 flag would kinda prove that maybe, just maybe, Cat players ARE better than the hawks....

 

[CF]

Try reading the thread instead of jumping to conclusions

Maybe then you'll understand nobody was actually comparing them as footballers

We were discussing the "recognition" that footballers receive and also the idiocy of rating a player purely by their stats

Well you're comparing their levels of recognition and celebrity, which is still comparing. You seem to be the one continuing this pointless debate with your constant posts in reply to everything. Even when I complemented Cyril you find a reason to shoot back. You need to get a grip on reality mate. Life's too short.

 

[Ichabod Noodle]

there is no right or wrong in rating a footballer.

Unless you don't rate Jimmy Bartel. Then you are just a fool

 

[barmy44]

Unless you don't rate Jimmy Bartel. Then you are just a fool

that was implicit

 

[Hodgepodge]

I already addressed that: "he went from being an elite brownlow-medal-winning midfielder racking up 30 touches per game to now getting 20 touches - sometimes less - and not having a defined role. It's the stark contrast between the two that have people like you confused."

Yes, it's the explanation that we're talking about. Going from a midfield role to other roles just doesn't explain anything as we've already discussed other players who have done similar and were stars in both roles.

Trying to shift the blame onto fantasy footy is just insulting to football supporters. Very few people are as blindsided by possession numbers as Bartel would like to think.

We're talking about a very distinct change in role with Bartel, not guys who played predominantly one position and occasionally ran around elsewhere.

That isn't the case with these players at all. Kouta, Pavlich, Cornes all played CHB, midfield, and CHF at varoius stages in their careers. At times Hird was just a forward. Then his foot injuries meant he went into the midfield. He was equally celebrated in both roles. Hodge has won AAs and BnFs and premierships as a half back but also won an AA and BnF as a midfielder. He was second in the MVP in 2010 as a midfielder.

There's no evidence there at all of players falling away in esteem once they changed positions.

 

[manboob]

Hodge has won AAs and BnFs and premierships as a half back but also won an AA and BnF as a midfielder.

God enough with the best and fairest awards already. Bartel has won a premiership medal as a midfielder, a tagger and a half-forward flanker. But you're right Bartel has never won a "Most Courageous Player Award" or a "Hawthorn FC Most Aggressive Act Award" or a "Hawthorn FC Best First Year Player Award", so those flags don't mean much.

Oh and lastly one of those BnF's was won when you finished 7th so by your logic it's not that impressive to be honest.

 

[Hodgepodge]

God enough with the best and fairest awards already. Bartel has won a premiership medal as a midfielder, a tagger and a half-forward flanker.

Almost any player can win a premiership medal. Leon Davis won one and he didn't even play in his team's winning Grand Final. This just isn't as impressive as you would perhaps want it to be. It's a great achievement, but it doesn't relate to the performance of the player.

But you're right Bartel has never won a "Most Courageous Player Award" or a "Hawthorn FC Most Aggressive Act Award" or a "Hawthorn FC Best First Year Player Award", so those flags don't mean much.

I didn't mention at any stage that Bartel needed to win Hawthorn-specific awards at all, let alone in preference over his 3 flags. You're being cheeky.

Oh and lastly one of those BnF's was won when you finished 7th so by your logic it's not that impressive to be honest.

How is that by my logic? Hodge won the Hawthorn BnF and was second in the MVP and AFLCA that year as well. That's a very impressive year by any standard, and ladder positioning doesn't even enter into the argument.

 

[Senatorguesty]

Almost any player can win a premiership medal. Leon Davis won one and he didn't even play in his team's winning Grand Final. This just isn't as impressive as you would perhaps want it to be. It's a great achievement, but it doesn't relate to the performance of the player.

Yep maybe, now list the undeserving 3 time premiership players.

 

[Hodgepodge]

Yep maybe, now list the undeserving 3 time premiership players.

You said undeserving, so you list them. My comment was that its a great achievement but doesn't relate specifically to player performance. And of course it just doesn't.

 

[CF]

Almost any player can win a premiership medal. Leon Davis won one and he didn't even play in his team's winning Grand Final. This just isn't as impressive as you would perhaps want it to be. It's a great achievement, but it doesn't relate to the performance of the player.

Next you'll say any player can win a Norm Smith medal too. Any player can win a Brownlow Medal too eh? Jimmy is now part of an elite group of individual footballers who have a Premiership Medal, Norm Smith Medal, and Brownlow Medal. Others in the elite group include Simon Black, James Hird, Chris Judd, and Greg Williams. But like you said...any player can do that. So Jimmy must be just rubbish eh?

 

[Senatorguesty]

You said undeserving, so you list them. My comment was that its a great achievement but doesn't relate specifically to player performance. And of course it just doesn't.

Dont be obtuse.
You try to undermine Bartel by saying anyone can win a flag and use a guy who played in a drawn GF as your example to "prove" that point, yet Bartel has won 3 flags.
Anyone can win a Brownlow, yet they dont.
Anyone can win a Norm Smith, yet they dont.
Only a VERY select few have won 3 or more flags and BOTH of the above, guess who is in that group?

 

[the_interloper]

Bartel is a gun, if you don't recognise that you're either blind or know bugger all about footy.

 

[Hodgepodge]

Next you'll say any player can win a Norm Smith medal too. Any player can win a Brownlow Medal too eh? Jimmy is now part of an elite group of individual footballers who have a Premiership Medal, Norm Smith Medal, and Brownlow Medal. Others in the elite group include Simon Black, James Hird, Chris Judd, and Greg Williams. But like you said...any player can do that. So Jimmy must be just rubbish eh?

I didn't say that Bartel was rubbish or that anybody can win a flag/1Brownlow/1NormSmith. So it seems to me that if you had a real argument for Bartel you'd stop trying to pretend that I did say those things and just rely on the validity of Bartel's career.

The flag/Brownlow/Norm Smith group is again an achievement group and just doesn't correlate well enough to player performance. We've seen all manner of player win a Brownlow or Norm Smith or even as many as 3 flags. It's a group of players who have something in common, but it would be delusional of anyone to think that this puts them all on an equal footing in the game.

 

[Chewy]

Well you're comparing their levels of recognition and celebrity,which is still comparing

Just because I use other examples of players to make a point, it does not mean that I'm comparing them.

People were arguing over Bartel's stature in the game. In particular, his paltry stats vs his role in the team.

I could see both sides of the debate and thought Cyril Rioli was a good example of a footballer who plays his role to a tee, but who gets shit-canned by people for his low stats. Hopefully KidKenobi or HodgePodge read it and they both have a slightly better understanding about where the other person is coming from.

In any case, let's just say I did compare them. Why would this bother you? Since when did Australia become Nazi Geelong and people are not allowed to compare Bartel to another player in a thread about Jimmy Bartel?

 

[CF]

I didn't say that anybody can win a flag

Well you did say that and it's there for all to read. Then you say it's delusional to think that winning a Premiership/Norm Smith/Brownlow doesn't put Jimmy up there equal with players like Hird, Williams, Judd etc. You're the one who's delusional mate and you make that clear every post you make where you refuse to give a good player his dues only because he plays for Geelong. You have a problem mate.

 

[Hodgepodge]

Dont be obtuse. You try to undermine Bartel by saying anyone can win a flag and use a guy who played in a drawn GF as your example to "prove" that point, yet Bartel has won 3 flags.

You said undeserving of the flag. Undermining the individual performance of a player in a premiership team does not mean they are undeserving at all. It just means its not an individual award and thus completely irrelevant.

Anyone can win a Brownlow, yet they dont. Anyone can win a Norm Smith, yet they dont.

Sounds like you've confused the word anyone with everyone. I don't think I said that EVERYONE can win a Brownlow, it's just that almost anyone can win it in a particular year and it almost never goes to the best player in the competition.
Banking the legacy of Bartel on a particular set of awards just doesn't make any sense either. I think you're confusing rarity of achievement with level of achievement.

 

[Senatorguesty]

You said undeserving of the flag. Undermining the individual performance of a player in a premiership team does not mean they are undeserving at all. It just means its not an individual award and thus completely irrelevant.



Sounds like you've confused the word anyone with everyone. I don't think I said that EVERYONE can win a Brownlow, it's just that almost anyone can win it in a particular year and it almost never goes to the best player in the competition.
Banking the legacy of Bartel on a particular set of awards just doesn't make any sense either. I think you're confusing rarity of achievement with level of achievement.

I like how you pick and choose parts of my post to quote and ignore the parts that make you out to be a bitter biased old fool.

 

[Hodgepodge]

Well you did say that and it's there for all to read.

Now you're just responding to a completely edited post. The actual comment I made was that I didn't say anybody could win 3 flags/1 NS/1 Brownlow. Not that I didn't say that anybody could win a flag.

I don't know why you'd bother being such an obvious cheat.

You have a problem mate.

Hilarious.

 

[Hodgepodge]

I like how you pick and choose parts of my post to quote and ignore the parts that make you out to be a bitter biased old fool.

I have been discussing those parts all the time in this thread, and I referred to them in the reply. The 3 Flag/1 Norm Smith/1 Brownlow thing right? I already answered that by pointing out how rarity and level of achievement are two completely different things.

 

[Senatorguesty]

I have been discussing those parts all the time in this thread, and I referred to them in the reply. The 3 Flag/1 Norm Smith/1 Brownlow thing right? I already answered that by pointing out how rarity and level of achievement are two completely different things.

So you're either saying 3/1/1 is either common or not much of an achievement.
Which is it?

 

[Hodgepodge]

So you're either saying 3/1/1 is either common or not much of an achievement. Which is it?

Why don't you read what I actually said instead of putting words in my mouth and trying your false dilemmas on me?