Society/Culture Jordan B Peterson

[ShanDog]

Yes, there's always been a "hippie" element of the left, that hasn't changed. I doubt there's much overlap between this hippie element (those who might extol Reiki for anything) and those that admonish people about masks though. In any case, JP makes the element of "the left" that might have had skepticism over vaccines sound larger than it ever was, as if a large chunk of it was anti-vaccine, but fell in line with Big Pharma for some reason over Covid vaccines.

I think there's more examples/types of "science denial", and more widespread, on the right than the left, but yes it exists everywhere.

I think there's a very vocal bubble of lefties who don't like or trust vaccines. Same sort of people who can't let go of the debunked idea that vaccines cause autism, or who get scared about the nasty sounding chemicals in them (dihydrogen monoxide - deadly stuff that kills thousands per year!!!). Those sort of people are predominantly on the "wellness left", and there's plenty of others who hate vaccines for different reasons on the right, but any distinction one might try to draw based on numbers is really a moot point IMO. There's plenty enough of both to go around for any claim that paints one side as anti-science and not the other as silly.

 

[Bloods86]

Nah, Destiny is very firmly in the team Biden camp, he has said so numerous times and stated his case for a second term of old Joe's admin.

Yes, he's not as left as the left would hope, but he relentlessly attacks MAGA bullshit in a way that fake centrist MAGA ass kissing grifters like Tim Pool and Russell Brand would never dream of.

When he was talking recently to Chris Williamson he had to stop himself a few times from what he felt like was bullying of conservatives when he was pointing out their insane bullshit.

He just doesn't want to come across as biased and perhaps overcorrects himself at times.

What I like about Destiny is that he doesn't assume the worst qualities of people who support Trump and doesn't smugly look down on them all as idiots, even though it can seem that way sometimes.

That said, I have no sympathy for the grifting *s like Peterson and Shapiro. I think in Rogan's case he's just that moronic.

Yeah, Destiny himself says he's a liberal, centre-left, a capitalist. Pro-Israel (at least more defensive of Israel's actions than many on the left would agree with, myself included), more conservative on law/order (with limits, although he does fly off the cuff sometimes as noted). But then reasonably progressive (again, can go off the cuff about particular instances) on other things like education, social security, trans rights, industrial relations.

He's very good on Covid and it's handling (as evidenced in this JP convo), Biden's record vs Trump, Trump's anti-democratic bent, support for Ukraine etc.

But anyway, not the Destiny thread so I'll stop.

 

[ShanDog]

Some of this stuff is actually being taken on board in corporations and institutions of learning in America in the form of DEI seminars, and is facing the predictable backlash. The lunatic fringes on both sides are the greasy wheels. It’s depressing.

View attachment 1937153

To be fair, lots of the social science people would agree with her, so at least she's being scientific

 

[barreness]

Nah, Destiny is very firmly in the team Biden camp, he has said so numerous times and stated his case for a second term of old Joe's admin.

Yes, he's not as left as the left would hope, but he relentlessly attacks MAGA bullshit in a way that fake centrist MAGA ass kissing grifters like Tim Pool and Russell Brand would never dream of.

When he was talking recently to Chris Williamson he had to stop himself a few times from what he felt like was bullying of conservatives when he was pointing out their insane bullshit.

He just doesn't want to come across as biased and perhaps overcorrects himself at times.

What I like about Destiny is that he doesn't assume the worst qualities of people who support Trump and doesn't smugly look down on them all as idiots, even though it can seem that way sometimes.

That said, I have no sympathy for the grifting *s like Peterson and Shapiro. I think in Rogan's case he's just that moronic.

I mean yeh, I think if you've got questionably rascist blokes in team Biden it says a lot about the US

Destiny, Pool, and Brand. Jeez America gets the independant political coverage they deserve i guess. I do watch Hasan sometimes so you can probably guess my opinions, I reckon every centrist is a conservative

Williamson is an interesting one, I'll listen depending on the guests. Did you listen to the one with Nate Hagen? He basically writes him off and then goes on for weeks about low fertility rates. Same with a few of the climate change types he's had, will only take the ones that insist on buisness as usual and everything will be fine.
Thought destiny came of as a pretenious coward, but imo obvs

 

[ShanDog]

I reckon every centrist is a conservative

Remember though, there's always some more extreme than you. To some, you'd be a filthy centrist. Which in you own esteem, would make you a closet conservative.

Ew, you're gross.

 

[Coolangatta]

I mean yeh, I think if you've got questionably rascist blokes in team Biden it says a lot about the US

Destiny, Pool, and Brand. Jeez America gets the independant political coverage they deserve i guess. I do watch Hasan sometimes so you can probably guess my opinions, I reckon every centrist is a conservative

Williamson is an interesting one, I'll listen depending on the guests. Did you listen to the one with Nate Hagen? He basically writes him off and then goes on for weeks about low fertility rates. Same with a few of the climate change types he's had, will only take the ones that insist on buisness as usual and everything will be fine.
Thought destiny came of as a pretenious coward, but imo obvs

Conservatives who are gonna vote for Biden, now I've heard it all.

And no, I haven't heard that one, don't really do the podcast thing much but will probably ramp it up a bit. Destiny didn't come across that way to me at all, I really think you've got him wrong. Sure, you might disagree with him on some topics, but he's clearly not afraid to attack Trump, Trump's base, or be reluctant to say he supports the Dems (just not on everything). He hasn't gone Elon Musk who is pretty adamant that Biden needs to be stopped to "save America" at this rate.

 

[barreness]

Conservatives who are gonna vote for Biden, now I've heard it all.

Bidens policies would be considered pretty conservative in a social democracy, particuarly 50 years ago. He's about as green as thatcher for example, not doing much on state healthcare/student debt/housing costs, suppying a genocide

When the only other choice is a proto-fascist dictatorship then yeh lesser of two evils

 

[barreness]

Remember though, there's always some more extreme than you. To some, you'd be a filthy centrist. Which in you own esteem, would make you a closet conservative.

Ew, you're gross.

......theres always the Moaist third worlders

I should have said self identifying centrists within the current US political situation, when your liberals are considered leftists ya know

 

[ShanDog]

Bidens policies would be considered pretty conservative in a social democracy, particuarly 50 years ago. He's about as green as thatcher for example, not doing much on state healthcare/student debt/housing costs, suppying a genocide

When the only other choice is a proto-fascist dictatorship then yeh lesser of two evils

You have to couch that within the framework of the American political system though, which is generally more conservative than ours and the UK. I mean, just those examples you gave would be what we'd expect from our conservative party (actually, many would be shocked by it) and that's been pretty consistently the Dems policies.

 

[Coolangatta]

Bidens policies would be considered pretty conservative in a social democracy, particuarly 50 years ago. He's about as green as thatcher for example, not doing much on state healthcare/student debt/housing costs, suppying a genocide

When the only other choice is a proto-fascist dictatorship then yeh lesser of two evils

Yeah, Biden admin is more like a centre-right party and Trump is the right/far-right arguably.

 

[Chief]

I'll say this, though.

You're right about nutty progressives being a thing, and ones who just automatically assume the worst qualities about people who don't buy into their worldview.

But something like 70% of Republicans think the election was stolen from Trump, which is insanity.

I think it's a helluva lot easier to find deranged conservatives than it is to find deranged liberals that exist outside of California.

The conservatives vote the nuts into positions of power.

The fringe loons with crystals and whatnot don't vote people into powerful positions beyond the odd mayorship of Nimbin. They are a tiny minority whereas your average rabid anti-immigration boomer has a lot more power and the anti-science, anti-vax (or dog whistlers of same) dweebs are getting voted in, or at least getting selected over more moderate party rivals.

Usually they can get more money behind them as all of this is garbage, pointing the finger at the powerless and minority groups to distract everyone from the people who just don't want to pay taxes.

Bigotry, racism, and anti-science are unfortunately firmly and widely held conservative positions. Whether they want to believe that or not.

 

[ShanDog]

Bigotry, racism, and anti-science are unfortunately firmly and widely held conservative positions. Whether they want to believe that or not.

The key attitude to winning over your opposition right here

 

[Chief]

The key attitude to winning over your opposition right here

It ain't my full-time job to change the mind your average anti-vax, AGW-denying, Elon stanning weirdo boomer.

 

[ShanDog]

It ain't my full-time job to change the mind your average anti-vax, AGW-denying, Elon stanning weirdo boomer.

Maybe consider making it a casual weekend job at least. Otherwise what the hell is the point of posting on here besides a circle-jerk with the like-minded?

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

Some of this stuff is actually being taken on board in corporations and institutions of learning in America in the form of DEI seminars, and is facing the predictable backlash. The lunatic fringes on both sides are the greasy wheels. It’s depressing.

View attachment 1937160

Corporate virtue signalling has been around a while. But US culture warriors have slapped an acronym on it now heaps of you are up in arms. It’s like the black history study thing from a few months ago that I’ve forgotten about, and you all have too.

DEI will go away, once the next thing makes you angry.


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[mcnulty]

Yeah, Biden admin is more like a centre-right party and Trump is the right/far-right arguably.

And yet Trump is the one talking about trade protection. The MAGA crowd claim to hate neocons and the old frames of reference about left and right are increasingly pointless.

The battle lines and indeed parties seem to be organising themselves around the culture wars- woke vs anti woke essentially.

 

[mcnulty]

Corporate virtue signalling has been around a while. But US culture warriors have slapped an acronym on it now heaps of you are up in arms. It’s like the black history study thing from a few months ago that I’ve forgotten about, and you all have too.

DEI will go away, once the next thing makes you angry.


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I’m not angry or up in arms. It really doesn’t affect me. It’s problematic though because it’s just more fuel to the fire in the culture wars.

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

I’m not angry or up in arms. It really doesn’t affect me. It’s problematic though because it’s just more fuel to the fire in the culture wars.

Not you personally just the ones up in arms about it.


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[Coolangatta]

The key attitude to winning over your opposition right here

There seems to be two schools of thought.

One, talk, question, counter, elaborate, don't judge, see if you can convince them (and the audience if it's a public thing) out of their position. The "free marketplace of ideas." Cons: misinformation, bad faith actors, interviewer too biased/stupid i.e. Rogan.

Two, shun them, don't give them a platform, shame them, ostracise them. Cons of this are obvious: there's way too many people who believe shitty things who'll continue to believe them if you just ignore them and let them stew in their own echo chamber.

I prefer the Destiny method of engagement as opposed to someone like Vaush who just shits on everyone and rarely engages with any opposition to his views.

 

[ShanDog]

There seems to be two schools of thought.

One, talk, question, counter, elaborate, don't judge, see if you can convince them (and the audience if it's a public thing) out of their position. The "free marketplace of ideas." Cons: misinformation, bad faith actors, interviewer too biased/stupid i.e. Rogan.

Two, shun them, don't give them a platform, shame them, ostracise them. Cons of this are obvious: there's way too many people who believe shitty things who'll continue to believe them if you just ignore them and let them stew in their own echo chamber.

I prefer the Destiny method of engagement as opposed to someone like Vaush who just shits on everyone and rarely engages with any opposition to his views.

Yep, totally agree. The second option results in no chance anything changes. The first at least gives it a chance, no matter how small.

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

Again, there’s a vibe of having to assuage the feelings of conservatives whose entire worldview is built on hate and exclusion of people based on cultural and gender characteristics.

I don’t care if the likes of Jordan Peterson or Thomas Sewell or Donald Trump feel the need to shut up, hopefully they do.


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[Coolangatta]

Again, there’s a vibe of having to assuage the feelings of conservatives whose entire worldview is built on hate and exclusion of people based on cultural and gender characteristics.

I don’t care if the likes of Jordan Peterson or Thomas Sewell or Donald Trump feel the need to shut up, hopefully they do.


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But they won't and if you force them to, it plays into their hands because they can successfully play the victim card.

Don't get me wrong, I get angry at some of the shit I've heard people say [in person, not just online] but I'm genuinely interested in trying to change their minds rather than tell them to go **** themselves which is just gonna make them not wanna deal with me ever again.

But generally I don't bother dealing with people much in my personal life as it is, but when I do I think it's better to take a strategic approach. I mean, they play the same game, people like Shapiro and stuff, will go on podcasts and appear moderate to a larger audience -- I think it's helped them capture new fans. Take a leaf out of their book and beat them at the same game.

A bit of passion and aggression can be good at times, though, especially if you're 100% on the fact ball.

 

[Bloods86]

There seems to be two schools of thought.

One, talk, question, counter, elaborate, don't judge, see if you can convince them (and the audience if it's a public thing) out of their position. The "free marketplace of ideas." Cons: misinformation, bad faith actors, interviewer too biased/stupid i.e. Rogan.

Two, shun them, don't give them a platform, shame them, ostracise them. Cons of this are obvious: there's way too many people who believe shitty things who'll continue to believe them if you just ignore them and let them stew in their own echo chamber.

I prefer the Destiny method of engagement as opposed to someone like Vaush who just shits on everyone and rarely engages with any opposition to his views.

Not really a fair critique of Vaush there. He is further left to Destiny, so there is wider disagreement on more issues, and yes he has less patience, but he has had many lengthy engagements with those holding opposing views. Tending to smaller more fringe "opponents", since he's a smaller channel/figure as well.

Destiny might, in person during the actual convo (he'll give his actual thoughts later), be able to keep his cool when nonsense is coming his way, but after trying to be patient and engage, Vaush will sometimes just break and meet people at their level.

 

[Coolangatta]

Not really a fair critique of Vaush there. He is further left to Destiny, so there is wider disagreement on more issues, and yes he has less patience, but he has had many lengthy engagements with those holding opposing views. Destiny might, in person during the actual convo (he'll give his actual thoughts later), be able to keep his cool when nonsense is coming his way, but after trying to be patient and engage, Vaush will sometimes just break and meet people at their level.

Vaush is very rhetorically effective, I'll give him that. But I don't see him making the rounds like Destiny has lately. Would love to see him take a crack at Peterson, Shapiro etc.

 

[Bloods86]

Vaush is very rhetorically effective, I'll give him that. But I don't see him making the rounds like Destiny has lately. Would love to see him take a crack at Peterson, Shapiro etc.

The Charlie Kirk debate on Tim Pool was good. He can tone things down, but then Kirk wasn't being as obnoxious or disingenuous as he is otherwise capable of, or other opponents have been (where Vaush loses his cool or just mocks them).

I'm not sure he's ever getting a debate with JP or Shapiro, at least not these days, though did have a discussion with Mikhaila Peterson a while back.