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AFLW 2024 - Round 6 - Chat, game threads, injury lists, team lineups and more.
It's a pity, Destiny and Vaush are the only two left debaters I rate.The Charlie Kirk debate on Tim Pool was good. He can tone things down, but then Kirk wasn't being as obnoxious or disingenuous as he is otherwise capable of, or other opponents have been (where Vaush loses his cool or just mocks them).
I'm not sure he's ever getting a debate with JP or Shapiro, at least not these days, though did have a discussion with Mikhaila Peterson a while back.
Probably not the thread to go down that rabbit hole... but re: "grifter", you'd have to show that they don't actually believe what they say. And I don't think you can. Maybe you can try and make a case that they aren't very effective or helpful, but that's not grifting.Vaush and destiny suck, they're just the progressive grifters
It's all just content for clicks and money to all of them these days and their fans can be pretty rabid too
Are they flawed? Absolutely. But do you know how valuable it is to shatter the optics that Peterson and Shapiro are NOT these master debaters that will own any leftie that dares to combat them. I think that matters a huge deal, especially with Ben, the conservatives loved to make it out like Ben is just this god tier debater that no one can combat.Vaush and destiny suck, they're just the progressive grifters
It's all just content for clicks and money to all of them these days and their fans can be pretty rabid too
You're entitled to your opinion, and you can argue about how effective the debates are, that they never change minds, or how effective/credible the attempts by some of these figures to get their audiences involved at a community level or in political campaigns are.So much time wasted watching debate bros try and prove who is smarter
It's entertaining sure but its not good
It's like Dawkins and co running around on tv decades ago debating Christians on American TV
The most they achieved was a rabid following of wanna be atheists
They didn't break the church or the conservatives faith
This is the same you end up with Shapiro fans and destiny fans arguing who won and no actual work to fix or change anything happens
Someone pro Dems isn't looking for changeYou're entitled to your opinion, and you can argue about how effective the debates are, or how effective/credible the attempts by some of these figures to get their audiences involved at a community level or in political campaigns are.
But I also suspect if the preferred outcome is to just tear the whole system down somehow (as I think you believe from other threads), then nothing these guys do is going to be very satisfactory.
I think you're being a bit simplistic in your characterisation of these guys and what they are saying. Destiny maybe more so, but not entirely, and Vaush definitely not, are not "Pro Dem" in the way you make it sound. They both criticise the Dems, Vaush even more rabidly. I just don't think it's very serious engagement to assume that because someone is advocating for voting one way over the only other current alternative (in reality), and providing information on the good things that party/candidate has done or tried to do, that it means they want zero change to the system. It's about going the least worse option so that things don't become even harder to change in the future.Someone pro Dems isn't looking for change
Someone pro Israel isn't looking for change
I don't think any of these people should be put on pedestals
The parasocial relationships people have with them are dangerous
Because at some point people start believing what they say just because they said it.
Is there anyone of opposing viewpoints to yourself that you respect and can listen to?Someone pro Dems isn't looking for change
Someone pro Israel isn't looking for change
I don't think any of these people should be put on pedestals
The parasocial relationships people have with them are dangerous
Because at some point people start believing what they say just because they said it.
I just don't see the real value in themI think you're being a bit simplistic in your characterisation of these guys and what they are saying. Destiny maybe more so, but not entirely, and Vaush definitely not, are not "Pro Dem" in the way you make it sound. They both criticise the Dems, Vaush even more rabidly. I just don't think it's very serious engagement to assume that because someone is advocating for voting one way over the only other current alternative (in reality), and providing information on the good things that party/candidate has done or tried to do, that it means they want zero change to the system. It's about going the least worse option so that things don't become even harder to change in the future.
I don't think they should be put on pedestals either, they are fallible humans like the rest of us. However, I think they can be useful to good ends, even if not as effective as some/I would like.
The parasocial relationship and skipping the "forming views" step of having views, are not really related to there being figures that discuss and debate politics, that people watch and support. That there is a potential for bad outcomes from an over-reliance on something, does not mean the thing itself is inherently or entirely bad.
I think you raise points which are valid in some cases. But I also think there are other cases where people do actually have their views shifted in a legitimate way (not just following the opinion of whoever debates good).I just don't see the real value in them
I certainly don't see the point in getting excited about them going on conservative shows to debate their opponents because the fans of those shows generally are not going to be oh my guy lost I should change my views
They're as likely to double down as anything
People not interested so far might tune in for the big debate and start their journey down the rabbit hole
I just see it as legitimising people like Shapiro and Jorpy further
And yeah an American progressive is largely not that progressive and focusing on US entertainment politics warps your views
I think they all do more damage than good
Now that's a fair point.I also can't think of anything worse to do with my time than spend hours watching YouTube videos so I'm not their target demographic though
I'm now mid/late 30s and I've actually gone the other way. Used to be a voracious reader (of books) when younger and have progressed more to YouTube for general political/social and US political discussion. Some of it is time, energy levels i.e. reading a book requires more focus, whereas you can listen to/watch something while driving (listening obviously), cooking, doing other household stuff. I do read articles, so not entirely visual/verbal, but not much in the way of books any more. If some look down on that, eh.Now that's a fair point.
But a lot of young people these days spend time on/get their information from YouTube/Podcasts/Social Media and that's not going away, it's probably only going to get worse.
It might be a much nicer world if people ditched the smart phones, podcasts, and social media and went back to getting off their ass and going to a book store to learn more about the world, but that's not the trajectory we're on.
I don't dabble much into the YouTube world myself either but I can't say I've always felt like I just wasted my time. I've gotten something out of it but you're right that most people are probably not gonna change their minds.
That's not necessarily always the goal, though, but instead to reduce radicalisation and polarisation.
Now that's a fair point.
But a lot of young people these days spend time on/get their information from YouTube/Podcasts/Social Media and that's not going away, it's probably only going to get worse.
It might be a much nicer world if people ditched the smart phones, podcasts, and social media and went back to getting off their ass and going to a book store to learn more about the world, but that's not the trajectory we're on.
I don't dabble much into the YouTube world myself either but I can't say I've always felt like I just wasted my time. I've gotten something out of it but you're right that most people are probably not gonna change their minds.
That's not necessarily always the goal, though, but instead to reduce radicalisation and polarisation.
With you 100% on that, I called out my brother on that when he was going on about the stupidity of the younger generation and all that. I said the average young person is not the one making decisions in government etc that are screwing people over.Blaming youth/social media for everything, while boomers with all the power have long consumed Murdoch media, for example.
That's true. Tolstoy's War and Peace has been a real grind for me, it's holding me back from moving on to other books so I'm gonna leave it on the back burner for a while. I just can't get into it enough to want to keep going, in fact I think it's just that I strongly prefer non-fiction. 100% right about the focus issue, though.I'm now mid/late 30s and I've actually gone the other way. Used to be a voracious reader (of books) when younger and have progressed more to YouTube for general political/social and US political discussion. Some of it is time, energy levels i.e. reading a book requires more focus, whereas you can listen to/watch something while driving (listening obviously), cooking, doing other household stuff. I do read articles, so not entirely visual/verbal, but not much in the way of books any more. If some look down on that, eh.
its not just young people though, its everyone, which social media they are using for their news might be differentNow that's a fair point.
But a lot of young people these days spend time on/get their information from YouTube/Podcasts/Social Media and that's not going away, it's probably only going to get worse.
there is plenty of good stuff you can get from online but I just think watching debate bros is largely not itIt might be a much nicer world if people ditched the smart phones, podcasts, and social media and went back to getting off their ass and going to a book store to learn more about the world, but that's not the trajectory we're on.
clearly yes because if this didn't influence anyone the christian right in america would not put billions into doing itI think you raise points which are valid in some cases. But I also think there are other cases where people do actually have their views shifted in a legitimate way (not just following the opinion of whoever debates good).
see above on the whole you can't fact check live thoughDestiny for example, I think treats Shapiro with too much respect. He may be playing the game, so he can continue to reach Shapiro's audience, but on the flip side, Destiny makes it clear (outside of these cordial interactions) in no uncertain terms that he thinks the Republican/conservative side of politics in the US currently is majorly off the deep end vs reality on a variety of issues/topics.
I'm not sure how you could characterise the Destiny / JP discussion as legitimising JP that much, given Destiny's willingness to just say outright "that's not true", "no way that's true", "that's not what happened" (or in similar words) many times. I've probably only watched about 3/4 of it though. Unless of course, just engaging with them at all is seen as legitimising them. I have differing views on this, since I grew up very conservative and it was partially through patient friends who engaged with me, that my views changed or mellowed out on some topics (even before a bigger shift later on). Rather than just refusing to be my friend, or to talk about certain things, or to just continually call me an idiot (though there were times that happened).
I don't disagree I just think that history shows that we don't want to be relying on one or two guys to do it, we don't want to lionise themNow, obviously there needs to be some responsibility when you're engaging publicly with someone who has "problematic" views (like JP), and this is where people like Joe Rogan fall over a lot (partially because he may agree with them), but I think in most cases, and maybe it's tactical sometimes, that Destiny, Vaush etc will push back against most things, rather than legitimise them. And having people that will do that publicly, is better imo than just leaving large sections of the population thinking there are no alternative views held by sensible sounding people.
yeah i saw that the 8 hour eating window and 91% increase risk of heart attackBut obviously we should be skeptics of books, too, not just alternative media/podcasts. Last book I read before the grating War and Peace was something like the science of longevity and health by Dr. Peter Attia.
He's got his own podcast, he's been on Rogan (probably why his book was one of the best sellers), and he's got a bit of the "look at me, I'm a tough guy" thing about him. Have never listened to an episode of his pod.
Anyway, I thought it was a good book but doctor or not, his whole pro-intermittent fasting thing was... interesting, considering that it's now recently come out that it can increase your risk of a heart attack.
Scary thing is, I've done this myself before. Not taking the chance anymore, and I like to eat so any excuse to eat more is a-okay with me.yeah i saw that the 8 hour eating window and 91% increase risk of heart attack
Well one would hope, as these guys often do, is provide more detail about why they say it's not true/reasonable, or where the data comes from, or at least provide the counter point as to what is true/reasonable, rather than just yelling "it's not true, it's not tuurrruuuueee!" over and over.does Destiny saying that isn't true cut through at all to JPs fans? I doubt it will, maybe some will go and look it up for themselves afterwards, we can hope
Sure, but that doesn't invalidate the guys doing it. Well, not for this reason, even if you think it is invalid.I don't disagree I just think that history shows that we don't want to be relying on one or two guys to do it, we don't want to lionise them
we also tend to end up with the same "sort" of guys as the champions of the left over and over and its very much the same type of voices which is a problem