Society/Culture Jordan B Peterson

[Gralin]

Well one would hope, as these guys often do, is provide more detail about why they say it's not true/reasonable, or where the data comes from, or at least provide the counter point as to what is true/reasonable, rather than just yelling "it's not true, it's not tuurrruuuueee!" over and over.

There is only so much one can do in a debate, yes, it has limitations as a format. But we know that certain viewpoints are going to occupy the space regardless, preaching to large audiences, having faux debates or conservative lovefests, so I don't see anything "wrong" with people turning up or hosting events to challenge them (granted, there are pros and cons with almost every action).


Sure, but that doesn't invalidate the guys doing it. Well, not for this reason, even if you think it is invalid.

I just don't personally think Vaush or Destiny should be who we're hoping for

 

[Chief]

Jordan and Vaush could exchange racy goblin drawings. A true meeting of minds.

 

[the_interloper]

Ever had a mental illness that was cured by cleaning your bedroom?

Ever dealt with someone with a mental illness where actually completing a task (no matter how small) can improve their mindset?

 

[Chief]

Ever dealt with someone with a mental illness where actually completing a task (no matter how small) can improve their mindset?

I'm sure that is a thing.

But I am also sure Jordy is not the only person who ever told them to clean their room.

It ends up looking like a trick. My watch started after I messed around with it while Yuri Geller was on the tele making a face like he was in deep mystical concentration! Yuri's special mind powers fixed it! If your watch is still broken, you just didn't try hard enough.

 

[bourbons]

The key attitude to winning over your opposition right here

You say that like an argument that would win them over possibly exists

 

[ShanDog]

kickazz I think a general discussion on this topic is
Do you separate the art from the artist.

I say no.

I also say that how the art made you feel before you found out about the artist is not invalidated by that.

But that doesn't mean you have to defend the artist or continuing to like what they do

Yeah this makes sense, but in my case I do separate the art and the artist. I don't know if that is right or wrong, I just do.

Fine
I don't because I can't

Sorry to go back a bit - I thought I'd posted a response, but apparently I can't do six things at once anymore and somehow didn't hit the go button. But it's still sort of relevant...


I think this discussion is very interesting but is kind of easily resolved when framed in the high vs low cognitive decoupling concept.

Some people have the natural tendency to separate ideas from their greater context, and some people don't. This is a great example of it.

I don't think one approach is necessarily more ideal than the other, and we're largely programmed to do one or the other from birth.

 

[ShanDog]

You say that like an argument that would win them over possibly exists

It's partly an argument, but not entirely. It's also just actually meeting someone halfway by listening and engaging with intellectual respect. Unless that barrier is broken, nobody is even really listening to arguments, they're usually just trying to find holes in what the other person says.

 

[phantom13]

It's partly an argument, but not entirely. It's also just actually meeting someone halfway by listening and engaging with intellectual respect. Unless that barrier is broken, nobody is even really listening to arguments, they're usually just trying to find holes in what the other person says.

So Jordan Klepper (host on the daily show) was asked about this in a between the segments piece and gave a really thoughtful answer.

Effectively he said unless you can concede some point of being unsure youll never reach anyone, but that flows two ways.

In my experience the rabid Jordy, Trump, Tate supporters wont ever cede an inch so engaging them in meaningful and genuine discussion is a lost cause from the start.

Ive actually spoken to a friend who very VERY nearly went down the MRA hole on reddit, in discussion with him the reasons for his jumping off point and the appeal of it were pretty obvious and evident but by his own admission, at the point he was at no one was going to convince him why it was a shit idea except himself.

Theres likely a few exceptions to that rule but when the ideology is so ****ed and harmful and someone has already committed to it, id say its astonishingly rare that listening will do anything.

 

[ShanDog]

So Jordan Klepper (host on the daily show) was asked about this in a between the segments piece and gave a really thoughtful answer.

Effectively he said unless you can concede some point of being unsure youll never reach anyone, but that flows two ways.

In my experience the rabid Jordy, Trump, Tate supporters wont ever cede an inch so engaging them in meaningful and genuine discussion is a lost cause from the start.

Ive actually spoken to a friend who very VERY nearly went down the MRA hole on reddit, in discussion with him the reasons for his jumping off point and the appeal of it were pretty obvious and evident but by his own admission, at the point he was at no one was going to convince him why it was a s**t idea except himself.

Theres likely a few exceptions to that rule but when the ideology is so ****ed and harmful and someone has already committed to it, id say its astonishingly rare that listening will do anything.

I don't disagree. Which is why it's so important IMO that there are people willing to not just write off those who've been sucked in, and who try to engage with them.

I say that while fully putting my hand up as hypocritical - I get a sick pleasure in making fun of alien truthers on the internet. We're all flawed...

 

[the_interloper]

So Jordan Klepper (host on the daily show) was asked about this in a between the segments piece and gave a really thoughtful answer.

Effectively he said unless you can concede some point of being unsure youll never reach anyone, but that flows two ways.

In my experience the rabid Jordy, Trump, Tate supporters wont ever cede an inch so engaging them in meaningful and genuine discussion is a lost cause from the start.

Ive actually spoken to a friend who very VERY nearly went down the MRA hole on reddit, in discussion with him the reasons for his jumping off point and the appeal of it were pretty obvious and evident but by his own admission, at the point he was at no one was going to convince him why it was a s**t idea except himself.

Theres likely a few exceptions to that rule but when the ideology is so ****ed and harmful and someone has already committed to it, id say its astonishingly rare that listening will do anything.

You've described a fair bit of the discourse on this board quite well.

 

[phantom13]

I don't disagree. Which is why it's so important IMO that there are people willing to not just write off those who've been sucked in, and who try to engage with them.

I say that while fully putting my hand up as hypocritical - I get a sick pleasure in making fun of alien truthers on the internet. We're all flawed...

I think the hard part is that by and large people defend their position with absolutely no intent to listen to others, especially on the internet.

Ive had DMs from people going pretty hard about why they believe whatever, now if theyve taken the time to DM me ill always listen and try but by and large its pointless.

Distinguishing between those who are open to discourse and those that arent would be the key. No idea how you do that.

You've described a fair bit of the discourse on this board quite well.

Yeh, i mean everyone on the internet goes harder and bolder than in person IMO.

Big footy is unlikely to change any minds.

 

[the_interloper]

I think the hard part is that by and large people defend their position with absolutely no intent to listen to others, especially on the internet.

Ive had DMs from people going pretty hard about why they believe whatever, now if theyve taken the time to DM me ill always listen and try but by and large its pointless.

Distinguishing between those who are open to discourse and those that arent would be the key. No idea how you do that.

Yeh, i mean everyone on the internet goes harder and bolder than in person IMO.

Big footy is unlikely to change any minds.

Certainly something I've tried to change over my internetting years, now i really just try and talk how I would to people IRL, it's hard to do of course.

 

[kickazz]

Effectively he said unless you can concede some point of being unsure youll never reach anyone, but that flows two ways.

When you listen to people who are just way too sure of themselves and 100% think that they are right - you know what you learn? Nothing really apart from what it's like inside their head - because you are given nothing to work with or ponder for yourself.


When you yourself are completely assured that you are 100% right on a topic then again, listening to others speak about it will teach you nothing about the issue - it will again just teach you whether this person agrees with you or not.

When people are convincing but still have the humility to be unsure - then the focus of the listener (and speaker fwiw) moves away from the speaker and their mindset to the actual issue at hand. They give you something to work with, something to ponder, an opportunity to learn about the issue being discussed.

 

[the_interloper]

When you listen to people who are just way too sure of themselves and 100% think that they are right - you know what you learn? Nothing really apart from what it's like inside their head - because you are given nothing to work with or ponder for yourself.


When you yourself are completely assured that you are 100% right on a topic then again, listening to others speak about it will teach you nothing about the issue - it will again just teach you whether this person agrees with you or not.

When people are convincing but still have the humility to be unsure - then the focus of the listener (and speaker fwiw) moves away from the speaker and their mindset to the actual issue at hand. They give you something to work with, something to ponder, an opportunity to learn about the issue being discussed.

People think to sound smart you need to know everything, and if you don't you pretend you do. Truly intelligent people are happy to ask questions if they don't know something.*

*That's why i don't ask many questions obvs

 

[phantom13]

When you listen to people who are just way too sure of themselves and 100% think that they are right - you know what you learn? Nothing really apart from what it's like inside their head - because you are given nothing to work with or ponder for yourself.


When you yourself are completely assured that you are 100% right on a topic then again, listening to others speak about it will teach you nothing about the issue - it will again just teach you whether this person agrees with you or not.

When people are convincing but still have the humility to be unsure - then the focus of the listener (and speaker fwiw) moves away from the speaker and their mindset to the actual issue at hand. They give you something to work with, something to ponder, an opportunity to learn about the issue being discussed.

I think the difficult part with a JP or Anti Vaxx or whatever is that both sides are usually starting both absolutely sure they are right and usually pretty emotive about it.

I think JP (on topic) is deeply, deeply harmful and dangerous and i struggle to stay level headed and open minded. I know hes full of shit and grifting, even if i can concede his "clean your room" stuff was helpful to some disenfranchised young men hes gone so far away from that at this point that you may as well be discussing two seperate people.

 

[ShanDog]

I think JP (on topic) is deeply, deeply harmful and dangerous and i struggle to stay level headed and open minded. I know hes full of s**t and grifting, even if i can concede his "clean your room" stuff was helpful to some disenfranchised young men hes gone so far away from that at this point that you may as well be discussing two seperate people.

Completely agree with your characterisation of him as two separate people.

I came across his stuff early and loved listening to the Psychological Significance of the Bible series, and also a lot of his early recordings of lectures in university. I also found the 12 Rules book to be interesting and thought-provoking. Some stuff he said was a bit out there, and a lot of it was repackaged old-school self help wisdom (which, to be fair, he outright said as such). But, the key thing for me was that he was generally staying in his lane and sharing well-considered viewpoints, right or wrong. And I'm certain that what he had to say has helped many, many people improve their mental health and/or lives. Which is of course a good thing!

But then he went rogue. Audience capture, maybe. Or perhaps he was already a bit cooked and the attention just fried what was left of his ability to remain in reality. So I think it's worthwhile to draw a line at some point several years ago and separate the man into BC (before crazy) and AD (after delirium).

 

[Kram]

When he stays within his scope of knowledge he is good, starts to jump the shark a bit when he leaves it.

 

[swingdog]

Steven Levitt (of Freakonomics fame) thought the three hardest words for people to say weren't "I love you" but "I don't know."

 

[the_interloper]

Completely agree with your characterisation of him as two separate people.

I came across his stuff early and loved listening to the Psychological Significance of the Bible series, and also a lot of his early recordings of lectures in university. I also found the 12 Rules book to be interesting and thought-provoking. Some stuff he said was a bit out there, and a lot of it was repackaged old-school self help wisdom (which, to be fair, he outright said as such). But, the key thing for me was that he was generally staying in his lane and sharing well-considered viewpoints, right or wrong. And I'm certain that what he had to say has helped many, many people improve their mental health and/or lives. Which is of course a good thing!

But then he went rogue. Audience capture, maybe. Or perhaps he was already a bit cooked and the attention just fried what was left of his ability to remain in reality. So I think it's worthwhile to draw a line at some point several years ago and separate the man into BC (before crazy) and AD (after delirium).

There’s a good bit of dough available if you target the right wing, I feel initially he wasn’t but now he seems to have jumped right on that gravy train (along with Russell Brand)

 

[Gethelred]

He also really doesn't seem well. I'm not just talking about his speech or what he's saying, but he looks physically unwell.

You get done up to go in front of a camera, you're going to be wearing makeup, a suit etc. He looks genuinely overly tense all the time, he looks as though the only thing keeping him awake is his will itself - or as though he's drunk multiple strong coffees within a half hour period - and his delivery is a long way from the considered way he used to talk.

I don't think it's just grifting that's got him to where he is. I think there are people in his life who see his prominence as connected to their own and refuse to do what he would need them to do to be healthy.

 

[Gralin]

He also really doesn't seem well. I'm not just talking about his speech or what he's saying, but he looks physically unwell.

You get done up to go in front of a camera, you're going to be wearing makeup, a suit etc. He looks genuinely overly tense all the time, he looks as though the only thing keeping him awake is his will itself - or as though he's drunk multiple strong coffees within a half hour period - and his delivery is a long way from the considered way he used to talk.

I don't think it's just grifting that's got him to where he is. I think there are people in his life who see his prominence as connected to their own and refuse to do what he would need them to do to be healthy.

The circles he moves in now I'd be shocked if he isn't on a cocktail of things to improve his health, youth, masculinity etc

 

[Chief]

he looks as though the only thing keeping him awake is his will itself - or as though he's drunk multiple strong coffees within a half hour period

Some sort of alertness enhancement anyway.

 

[Coolangatta]

The circles he moves in now I'd be shocked if he isn't on a cocktail of things to improve his health, youth, masculinity etc

Some sort of alertness enhancement anyway.

No doubt acquired from the Huberman Rogan lab school of super alpha Chad dude bro based red pill establishment ball busters.

 

[Gralin]

No doubt acquired from the Huberman Rogan lab school of super alpha Chad dude bro based red pill establishment ball busters.

I don't mean that they're actually helpful either
Just sold to them as and yeah

 

[Kram]

It's hard not to laugh when he talks about lifting weights.