Society/Culture Jordan B Peterson

[Mofra]

I wouldn't go along with that completely.

The average Chinese peasant is doing a lot better than once was the case, but communism has a "use by date" once it achieves it's initial goals.

That in itself is a separate argument - did the Chinese brand of communism help or hinder the shift from agrarian state to industrialised nation?

Mao made some pitifully bad decisions - killing the swallows, the widespread murder of Chinese doctors and subsequent need to issue replacement education texts - it's arguable that a more capitalist approach may have made the transition occur sooner.

 

[its free real estate]

China is a fascist state. All the celebrating of their achievements has to be put in that context.

 

[ShanDog]

That in itself is a separate argument - did the Chinese brand of communism help or hinder the shift from agrarian state to industrialised nation?

Mao made some pitifully bad decisions - killing the swallows, the widespread murder of Chinese doctors and subsequent need to issue replacement education texts - it's arguable that a more capitalist approach may have made the transition occur sooner.

And it was certainly after adopting a model that closer resembled open markets and capitalism (relatively speaking) in the 1980s that saw the boom in living standards in China.

 

[Snake_Baker]

That in itself is a separate argument - did the Chinese brand of communism help or hinder the shift from agrarian state to industrialised nation?

Mao made some pitifully bad decisions - killing the swallows, the widespread murder of Chinese doctors and subsequent need to issue replacement education texts - it's arguable that a more capitalist approach may have made the transition occur sooner.

Agree it wasn't perfect, but you can really only view then and now arguments, as hypotheticals lead down an endless path.

 

[Partridge]

Never understood how the little darlings thought safe spaces and trigger warnings could possibly result in more resilient and healthier minds.

Generation Snowflake.

Check out JP's interview with Jonathan Haidt. Discusses this very phenomenon in some detail.

 

[RegHickeyStand]

That in itself is a separate argument - did the Chinese brand of communism help or hinder the shift from agrarian state to industrialised nation?

Mao made some pitifully bad decisions - killing the swallows, the widespread murder of Chinese doctors and subsequent need to issue replacement education texts - it's arguable that a more capitalist approach may have made the transition occur sooner.

China provided the world with something precious: a stable, peaceful, educated society capable of taking any large scale tasks the rest of us asked of it.

I'm trying to think of a western capitalist example in which the West has provided similar after WW2. South Korea? What else? There is a shipload of abject failures. Anyway, nothing on the scale of China. Yay for communism! (I think)

 

[Taylor]

China starved 45,000,000 people to death, that leaves a lot more for the rest to enjoy.

 

[Mofra]

China provided the world with something precious: a stable, peaceful, educated society capable of taking any large scale tasks the rest of us asked of it.

I'm trying to think of a western capitalist example in which the West has provided similar after WW2. South Korea? What else? There is a shipload of abject failures. Anyway, nothing on the scale of China. Yay for communism! (I think)

Japan famously 'lost the war and won the peace'. West Germany also had a rapid transformation post WW2.

A large part of it was via nationalised businesses e.g. Toyota's early story is quite interesting. Post WW2 industrial history can be quite interesting, arguably the US being largely untouched by the war at home (all infrastructure intact and indeed expanded under the war effort) solidified their status as the new western superpower.

 

[Mofra]

China starved 45,000,000 people to death, that leaves a lot more for the rest to enjoy.

Some put the figure higher (60m) - and the killing of the swallows was a huge example of the gross mismanagement of Mao's central planning.

 

[RegHickeyStand]

Japan famously 'lost the war and won the peace'. West Germany also had a rapid transformation post WW2.

A large part of it was via nationalised businesses e.g. Toyota's early story is quite interesting. Post WW2 industrial history can be quite interesting, arguably the US being largely untouched by the war at home (all infrastructure intact and indeed expanded under the war effort) solidified their status as the new western superpower.

I left Germany and Japan out as they were powerhouses prior to WW2.

 

[RegHickeyStand]

Japan famously 'lost the war and won the peace'. West Germany also had a rapid transformation post WW2.

A large part of it was via nationalised businesses e.g. Toyota's early story is quite interesting. Post WW2 industrial history can be quite interesting, arguably the US being largely untouched by the war at home (all infrastructure intact and indeed expanded under the war effort) solidified their status as the new western superpower.

I left Germany and Japan out as they were powerhouses prior to WW2.

 

[Gerald Preston]

Thoughts on this?

 

[Snake_Baker]

Thoughts on this?

A white supremacist religious nutcase calling JP out as a non believer.

Only an idiot would have thought otherwise.

Here's another one of posters clips:

 

[Leeda]

temple eleven says you are a drop kick.. sharing aint caring and shot gun politics is also shuttering eyelids...

 

[the_interloper]

Thoughts on this?

I'll give it a watch.

I've got to say I've watched a fair bit of Peterson's stuff and I agree with a lot of what he says (admittedly a bit goes over my head and he's very persuasive in the way he articulates his arguments.) Who is a good speaker for the negative though? Are there any people who disagree with him that are worth doing a bit of research into? Even better a debate worth watching where he meets his match?

 

[ShanDog]

I'll give it a watch.

I've got to say I've watched a fair bit of Peterson's stuff and I agree with a lot of what he says (admittedly a bit goes over my head and he's very persuasive in the way he articulates his arguments.) Who is a good speaker for the negative though? Are there any people who disagree with him that are worth doing a bit of research into? Even better a debate worth watching where he meets his match?

Sam Harris is definitely one to listen to - they have done a few discussions/debates and on some philosophical matters they come from polar opposites. Harris is probably one of the few (if not the only) who can not only hold their own against Peterson but can out-argue him; Harris is better at the back and forth debating, whereas Peterson's ability to monologue is his strength.

 

[ShanDog]

To clarify though - Harris isn't necessarily right and Peterson wrong.

 

[the_interloper]

Sam Harris is definitely one to listen to - they have done a few discussions/debates and on some philosophical matters they come from polar opposites. Harris is probably one of the few (if not the only) who can not only hold their own against Peterson but can out-argue him; Harris is better at the back and forth debating, whereas Peterson's ability to monologue is his strength.

Cheers for that, seems they've done a bit together, I've got a bit to get through. I do appreciate the art of the argument, I'm in sales which i treat basically as an argument as well (you don't want it to look like that of course), so i do like hearing from good debaters.

 

[the_interloper]

To clarify though - Harris isn't necessarily right and Peterson wrong.

Yeah like I said Peterson is so much better researched than me that it's hard for me to question a lot of what he says. It's why I was looking for someone who is on his level intellectually and academically so I can sort of find some middle ground i guess (and not have to do all of that work ha ha).

 

[FireKrakouer]

Sam Harris is definitely one to listen to - they have done a few discussions/debates and on some philosophical matters they come from polar opposites. Harris is probably one of the few (if not the only) who can not only hold their own against Peterson but can out-argue him; Harris is better at the back and forth debating, whereas Peterson's ability to monologue is his strength.

Can you sum up what their key differences of opinion are? Or just a couple of them, if it's all too vast. Looks like there's many hours of content. It doesn't just mostly come down to JP saying "I think there's merit in religion" and SH saying "I don't"??

 

[ShanDog]

Can you sum up what their key differences of opinion are? Or just a couple of them, if it's all too vast. Looks like there's many hours of content. It doesn't just mostly come down to JP saying "I think there's merit in religion" and SH saying "I don't"??

It can be summarised as that but goes down to deeper issues that comprise it, like the origin of value structures, how they shape society and whether pure secularism is a workable foundation for them. Those are huge questions.

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

Peterson's ability to monologue is his strength.

I think you mean waffle aimlessly

 

[Scotland]

Disappointed he's a bit of a climate change denier.

Appreciate his viewpoint RE: cumulative error in predictive models and being difficult to track impact of mitigation measures into the future (i.e. if the temperature is forecast to rise 1-2 degrees and rises 1 degree did our action/inaction actually make a difference?) but it's not a reason to do nothing. Even if you are a staunch believer that GHG emissions aren't a problem you can't possibly be pro pollution.

 

[ShanDog]

Disappointed he's a bit of a climate change denier.

Appreciate his viewpoint RE: cumulative error in predictive models and being difficult to track impact of mitigation measures into the future (i.e. if the temperature is forecast to rise 1-2 degrees and rises 1 degree did our action/inaction actually make a difference?) but it's not a reason to do nothing. Even if you are a staunch believer that GHG emissions aren't a problem you can't possibly be pro pollution.

Can you link where he's said these views before? Haven't seen them myself

 

[Scotland]

Can you link where he's said these views before? Haven't seen them myself