Coach Justin Longmuir Pt 2

[Cayman Docker]

I was replying to people who were saying we have the best list we’ve ever had by literally listing players from our 2006 list. That was a strong list too.

I doubt all our current list will ever line up in what will prove with time to be the best 22, when Simpson is peaking Walters & Fyfe are likely gone etc.

Perhaps my mistake was putting them in position but that was our list in 2006 & it was a very good one that I think a better coach would have taken further.

At the moment we have journeyman like Hughes, Banners, Worner, a very young couple of key forwards & not really any proper wingers (Sharp is unproven) plus our number one ruck is out more than in, Fyfe has barely played for 3 years, Chapman & NOD can’t get on the park & people expect JL to win a flag against the likes of GWS & Sydney and Collingwood who are stacked with academy and F/S talent.

I was making an equivalence. You can say it’s based on a flawed premise, I just thought it was interesting.

Oh and my list was from a single year. Not a period.

Have always valued your perspective E Shed. This is exactly why we shouldn’t be getting ahead of ourselves with 2 wins. We are yet to put in 4 quarters and we are only another couple of injuries shy of dicky knees. We haven’t proven anything yet.

The logic says 24 will be another rollercoaster ride, but a string of early belief building wins could also take them anywhere, and JL does seem to have a good understanding of how much the mental part of the game is a factor…. well, barring the first quarter!

 

[freo1997]

I was replying to people who were saying we have the best list we’ve ever had by literally listing players from our 2006 list. That was a strong list too.

I doubt all our current list will ever line up in what will prove with time to be the best 22, when Simpson is peaking Walters & Fyfe are likely gone etc.

Perhaps my mistake was putting them in position but that was our list in 2006 & it was a very good one that I think a better coach would have taken further.

At the moment we have journeyman like Hughes, Banners, Worner, a very young couple of key forwards & not really any proper wingers (Sharp is unproven) plus our number one ruck is out more than in, Fyfe has barely played for 3 years, Chapman & NOD can’t get on the park & people expect JL to win a flag against the likes of GWS & Sydney and Collingwood who are stacked with academy and F/S talent.

I was making an equivalence. You can say it’s based on a flawed premise, I just thought it was interesting.

Oh and my list was from a single year. Not a period.

Think the list we have now is probably the most talented across the board. Just need to have the right coach and development coaches surrounding them and hoping they don’t ask for a trade!

I think that fwd line of 06(back half of the year) is the best it’s ever looked period. Pav, Murphy, Farmer, Jlo, Webster and Headland were a handful. It’s a shame ignorant Connolly couldn’t fit Medders in by the end.

Amiss, Jackson, Treacy, Freddy, Switta and Walters. Banners around the mark. Time will tell. I think just reading those names Blind Freddy can see we need a ready made FP to replace Walters when he retires. Would be looking at Bolton personally cause Farmer was the point of difference in that 06 year and Ballas/Walters we’re elite in 12-15.

 

[Freomaniac]

Yes, I remember now that your mention it. Thanks. Pretty good rotation. Loved Griff. Underrated talent. Could clunk a mark or two as well as a good tap ruckman. Still remember Zac's ability to get airborne was super - exciting.

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Pity you can't do that anymore. Players (managers?) get a sniff they might not be lock best 22 elsewhere and pack their bags. Lloyd Meek essentially went from WAFL/AFL to VFL/AFL (Hasn't played a game yet in the 1s this year).

I didnt mind meek... If he was Western Australian, I think he would still be on our list as a back up ruck

 

[Docker82]

I was replying to people who were saying we have the best list we’ve ever had by literally listing players from our 2006 list. That was a strong list too.

I doubt all our current list will ever line up in what will prove with time to be the best 22, when Simpson is peaking Walters & Fyfe are likely gone etc.

Perhaps my mistake was putting them in position but that was our list in 2006 & it was a very good one that I think a better coach would have taken further.

At the moment we have journeyman like Hughes, Banners, Worner, a very young couple of key forwards & not really any proper wingers (Sharp is unproven) plus our number one ruck is out more than in, Fyfe has barely played for 3 years, Chapman & NOD can’t get on the park & people expect JL to win a flag against the likes of GWS & Sydney and Collingwood who are stacked with academy and F/S talent.

I was making an equivalence. You can say it’s based on a flawed premise, I just thought it was interesting.

Oh and my list was from a single year. Not a period.

It’s no difference to people on here who act like Lachie Neale was a superstar in 2013 I guess.

It’s why I’ve talked so much about not necessarily using all three first rounders at the draft this year. I’m worried we won’t see the best of these players and some one our list aged between 25 and 28 currently at close enough to the same time.

We were lucky having Pavlich, Sandilands and McPharlin playing good footy post 30 in 2012-2015. The reality is however there probably was nothing to suggest that Hasleby and Hedland wouldn’t have been there as well in 2009 one year before they both retired. JL is also a similar age to these guys. It doesn’t always just happen.

I think we’ve done very well at drafting players born between 1998 and 2003 tbh. Have those guys all at the club at age 24-30 (in 2027) we’ll be a competitor. Add to that group and we might be premier. It doesn’t mean you can’t have 21 year olds or 32 year olds but those guys aren’t exactly fully in their prime.

 

[WilloTree]

Think the list we have now is probably the most talented across the board. Just need to have the right coach and development coaches surrounding them and hoping they don’t ask for a trade!

I think that fwd line of 06(back half of the year) is the best it’s ever looked period. Pav, Murphy, Farmer, Jlo, Webster and Headland were a handful. It’s a shame ignorant Connolly couldn’t fit Medders in by the end.

Amiss, Jackson, Treacy, Freddy, Switta and Walters. Banners around the mark. Time will tell. I think just reading those names Blind Freddy can see we need a ready made FP to replace Walters when he retires. Would be looking at Bolton personally cause Farmer was the point of difference in that 06 year and Ballas/Walters we’re elite in 12-15.

The other thing Blind Freedy can see if the lack of depth. Sturt, Voss and Delean are the only forwards I can think of currently not getting a game. DeLean is miles of AFL ready, so it's basically Sturt and Voss. I shudder to think what happens if we lose Amiss.

 

[Docker82]

The other thing Blind Freedy can see if the lack of depth. Sturt, Voss and Delean are the only forwards I can think of currently not getting a game. DeLean is miles of AFL ready, so it's basically Sturt and Voss. I shudder to think what happens if we lose Amiss.

I don’t think any team has good depth everywhere.

Across the board I think our depth is probably above average compared to most teams in the AFL. I know we can send out around 30-odd players on our list and they’ll do okay. There’s probably another 4-5 that I think might do okay but I haven’t seen enough of at AFL level yet (I’ll include Worner and Draper in that list for now tbh).

I don’t think we even need to play as many small/medium forwards as we do plus I think Simpson would probably do okay in that role if/when given the opportunity.

What you’re talking about is mainly a problem 2-3 years time but something we need to address as soon as we can - I’d start looking at the Mid Season Draft before looking again at years end tbh.

 

[WilloTree]

I don’t think any team has good depth everywhere.

Across the board I think our depth is probably above average compared to most teams in the AFL. I know we can send out around 30-odd players on our list and they’ll do okay. There’s probably another 4-5 that I think might do okay but I haven’t seen enough of at AFL level yet (I’ll include Worner and Draper in that list for now tbh).

I don’t think we even need to play as many small/medium forwards as we do plus I think Simpson would probably do okay in that role if/when given the opportunity.

What you’re talking about is mainly a problem 2-3 years time but something we need to address as soon as we can - I’d start looking at the Mid Season Draft before looking again at years end tbh.

I agree with you on defenders. Great depth there. Our onballers are pretty good as well. I'm pretty comfortable with Raz, Brodie and as you mention Simpson - had a really good pre-season and looked comfortable. O'Meara is ready for full games now as well. We haven't had to roll Walters or Switta through there at all yet this year (both very capable).

We're a bit light for outside mids while NOD is injured, but you only need a small number (Very pleased with Sharp) and there are some others who can hold the fort there (Worner, Raz, Johnno, Stanley?, Chappy?, O'Meara, Freddy). We could look at adding another at the draft, but it's not urgent.

We have enough rucks.

The forward line is desperately thin in comparison. It's compounded by my concern that we are carrying quite a few forwards who don't look like they are going to make a difference even if they are fit, and we've lost Corbett and Kuek for the season.

We're OK in the short term as we don't have any major injuries there, and Walters is still playing great footy. What's the plan if we lose Amiss or Walters retires? There really isn't one....yet. We've got 4 1st rounders to fix it though. So, that's the good news

 

[Dale147]

 

[Docker82]

I agree with you on defenders. Great depth there. Our onballers are pretty good as well. I'm pretty comfortable with Raz, Brodie and as you mention Simpson - had a really good pre-season and looked comfortable. O'Meara is ready for full games now as well. We haven't had to roll Walters or Switta through there at all yet this year (both very capable).

We're a bit light for outside mids while NOD is injured, but you only need a small number (Very pleased with Sharp) and there are some others who can hold the fort there (Worner, Raz, Johnno, Stanley?, Chappy?, O'Meara, Freddy). We could look at adding another at the draft, but it's not urgent.

We have enough rucks.

The forward line is desperately thin in comparison. It's compounded by my concern that we are carrying quite a few forwards who don't look like they are going to make a difference even if they are fit, and we've lost Corbett and Kuek for the season.

We're OK in the short term as we don't have any major injuries there, and Walters is still playing great footy. What's the plan if we lose Amiss or Walters retires? There really isn't one....yet. We've got 4 1st rounders to fix it though. So, that's the good news

No team in the league has much more than 30-32 players that are genuinely AFL ready.

Losing players to injuries would make anyone's depth look like they're one or two injuries away from playing very inexperienced players but IMO you need those inexperienced players on your list to develop the next generation of best 22 players.

 

[mattis117]

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Pleasantly surprised to see The West of all publications print an article like this, it's unusually progressive for them.

 

[ubiquitous226]

View attachment 1941672

That's quite the article!

I particularly find comments such as those from Brereton (and some supporters) particularly enlightening, the view that you have to be shouting at players or make rousing speeches to get the team going.

Different people respond to different methods, and in particularly the newer generation of players may not all respond the same way as the "good old days"

 

[Midnite65]

That's quite the article!

I particularly find comments such as those from Brereton (and some supporters) particularly enlightening, the view that you have to be shouting at players or make rousing speeches to get the team going.

Different people respond to different methods, and in particularly the newer generation of players may not all respond the same way as the "good old days"

Players like Brereton played in the era where shouting was the norm by coaches, Barassi, Walls, Malthouse, Eade, etc. Do that to a team these days and half the team will shirk into a corner.

 

[gungho]

I don't see this list as good as 2012-15 or even the one Connelly had with:

F - Farmer, Pav Medhurst
HF - Headland JL Crowley
C - Heath Black, Haselby, M Carr
HB - Hayden, McPharlin, Duff
B - Parker Haddrill Grover

Ruck - Sandy, J Carr, Bell
Int - Ibbo, MJ, Polak, Mundy, Thornton

Plus Cook, Schammer, Warnock, Murphy, Peake, McManus, Walker, Dodd.

That side would spank what we've got now. We're currently putting our first gamers, a skinny 19yo full forward, Makeshift wings and journeymen like Ethan Hughes & Banners. There is practically no one in our current team that would get a game in that 2006 list.

I'm not going to be as harsh as some other but geez, you must have rose coloured glasses about our past. I hate to break it to you but guys like Matt Carr, Shane Parker and Des Headland were not rated very highly by most neutrals.

Amiss, although young, is an A grade talent. He's had an average game this year against North but neutrals regard him as the best key forward under 22 in the comp. Serong is an A grade talent. Brayshaw is an A grade talent. Clark is an A grade talent.
Jackson is an A grade talent. Ryan is an A grade talent. Then you've got guys who are very good AFL players, like Young, Darcy, Fyfe, Walters, Pearce, Cox and Walker. That is a pretty darn good core of players. I reckon even our bottom six in the 22 (like Banners, Aish, Johnson, Sharp, Emmett, Hughes) are better than the bottom six of this team. (Sorry but Thornton, Schammer, Warnock, Murphy, Walker, Dodd ect were WAFL quality).

If we were to make up a best Fremantle Dockers of all time list, then I reckon Jackson, Fyfe, Ryan, Walters, Serong and Brayshaw would make that team, and in 2 years I reckon Clark, Young and Amiss would join them. To me, that suggests we have a pretty good list.

 

[The Feeder Club]

Players like Brereton played in the era where shouting was the norm by coaches, Barassi, Walls, Malthouse, Eade, etc. Do that to a team these days and half the team will shirk into a corner.

True that. Brereton played most of his career being coached by Yabby Jeans, who allegedly had a favourite tactic when first year players joined each year of running them to the point of exhaustion in their first training session and then, when they were near collapsing, wrestling them to the ground, biting their ear til it bled and then whispering don't ever forget who is boss.
Imagine that happening now. FMD there was some terrible shit done in the past

 

[Kram]

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Great article Danielle!

 

[mattis117]

Players like Brereton played in the era where shouting was the norm by coaches, Barassi, Walls, Malthouse, Eade, etc. Do that to a team these days and half the team will shirk into a corner.

Rubbish. What is with the innuendo that this generation is soft? Shouting and carrying on has died out because it is nowhere near as effective as people made it out to be.
Ask yourself how motivated you are to do something because someone yelled at you?
You'll begrudgingly do it, but it won't be your best effort.
People give their best efforts when they're intrinsically motivated to do so.

 

[The Feeder Club]

Rubbish. What is with the innuendo that this generation is soft? Shouting and carrying on has died out because it is nowhere near as effective as people made it out to be.
Ask yourself how motivated you are to do something because someone yelled at you?
You'll begrudgingly do it, but it won't be your best effort.
People give their best efforts when they're intrinsically motivated to do so.

I think that's too simplistic. Those tactics were the most effective way to win games in the era they were practiced. Technology and the way the game has evolved has made a huge difference to how the game is coached, it's way more won in the classroom now, in the day those coaches operated it was way more won in the playground.

 

[mattis117]

I think that's too simplistic. Those tactics were the most effective way to win games in the era they were practiced. Technology and the way the game has evolved has made a huge difference to how the game is coached, it's way more won in the classroom now, in the day those coaches operated it was way more won in the playground.

It's a subject that would take pages of text to unpack. Happy to leave it at people are not softer now than in previous generations, we have higher standards of respect and how we treat other people.

 

[WilloTree]

No team in the league has much more than 30-32 players that are genuinely AFL ready.

Losing players to injuries would make anyone's depth look like they're one or two injuries away from playing very inexperienced players but IMO you need those inexperienced players on your list to develop the next generation of best 22 players.

Yes, I agree with all this. The only thing i'd add is that I was talking about the forwards specifically. I'm not sure it's 'normal' to be so well covered in all other parts of the ground and have the front half so thin. It just seems really imbalanced to me.

 

[MadEyeEmmy]

Justin has always said his strength is building relationships with the players. He doesn’t get them to perform for him by screaming and shouting or delivering “inspiring” pre game speeches. They want to play for him because they respect him and value their relationship with him and they love the club.

 

[pK75]

Yes, I agree with all this. The only thing i'd add is that I was talking about the forwards specifically. I'm not sure it's 'normal' to be so well covered in all other parts of the ground and have the front half so thin. It just seems really imbalanced to me.

How many forwards do you think we need? We currently have.
KPF: Amiss, Treacy, Tabs, Voss
Fwd/Ruck: Jackson, Jones
Medium FWD: Banfield, Sturt, Emmett
Small forward: Walters, Frederick, Delean
Fwd/mid: Switta, Simpson.
That’s 14 of a list of 44 (basically a third of the list)
Haven’t included JOM, Stanley or Nod who could play the HHF/wing role if they demanded it in the 2s or Ras in Fwd/Mid role as I think he’s more of an inside mid.

 

[Docker82]

How many forwards do you think we need? We currently have.
KPF: Amiss, Treacy, Tabs, Voss
Fwd/Ruck: Jackson, Jones
Medium FWD: Banfield, Sturt, Emmett
Small forward: Walters, Frederick, Delean
Fwd/mid: Switta, Simpson.
That’s 14 of a list of 44 (basically a third of the list)
Haven’t included JOM, Stanley or Nod who could play the HHF/wing role if they demanded it in the 2s or Ras in Fwd/Mid role as I think he’s more of an inside mid.

I think we're talking quality not quantity here tbh.

Personally I think we need to realise Taberner wouldn't be playing if Darcy was fit. Not sure Voss is too far off ready either but I haven't seen him at AFL. Regardless, I don't think many teams have a Matt Taberner running around in the state leagues when everyone is fit.

The supposed lack of depth for small forwards is largely to do with Schultz leaving us unexpectedly and us basically replacing him with an 18 year old. Based off the second half of last year, Sturt was good depth but hasn't been the case based off the pre season - these things just happen at AFL level.

 

[Kram]

He doesn’t get them to perform for him by screaming and shouting

You mean Cam Shepherd down at Peel was doing it wrong?!

 

[WilloTree]

How many forwards do you think we need? We currently have.
KPF: Amiss, Treacy, Tabs, Voss
Fwd/Ruck: Jackson, Jones
Medium FWD: Banfield, Sturt, Emmett
Small forward: Walters, Frederick, Delean
Fwd/mid: Switta, Simpson.
That’s 14 of a list of 44 (basically a third of the list)
Haven’t included JOM, Stanley or Nod who could play the HHF/wing role if they demanded it in the 2s or Ras in Fwd/Mid role as I think he’s more of an inside mid.

We're talking about 2 different things. I've read this before - people listing names as if the number of forwards is the same as the actual depth. It's a furphy.

I'll give you an example.

Which 10 would you take?

LIST A: Pearce, Cox, Ryan, Clark, Young, Walker, Chapman, Wagner, Worner, Hughes
or
LIST B: Keuk, Corbett, Knobel, Sturt, Williams, Ready, Voss, Jones, DeLean, Taberner

Can you see that just listing players and counting them as equal is misleading?

 

[pK75]

When tabs is your 4th best KPF, I think that’s pretty good depth, so I’m not sure what your point is? We need to play 7 forwards per game and have 10 that are AFL standard at a minimum: Jackson, Amiss, Treacy, Tabs, Banfield, Emmett, Sturt, Walters, Frederick, Switta.
IMO if our Forward depth looks shallow it’s because our ruck and wing depth is so poor, Jackson is playing Ruck because Reidy and Knobel aren’t up to standard. Banfield is playing wing because NOD and Stanley are both injured and we have nothing else.
Taking 2 of 10 AFL standard forwards out of the forward line is bound to test our depth.
Likewise our backline has lost 3 AFL quality players in Cox, Chapman and McDonald and suddenly we’re testing an untried player in Draper.