Coach Justin Longmuir

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Outshined said:
Yeah the football on display against Melbourne, Brisbane, Port and Geelong in particular was seriously good.

Unfortunately we subsequently got figured out and haven't really been able to get back to that level for more than a quarter or two at a time.
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Yep, it's not that we didn't play good footy last year, it's that we eventually got exposed as one dimensional. This was made apparent in the Gold Coast and Collingwood games, when we needed to play direct footy in the wet, couldn't and got thrashed. Now direct footy is the method of every team, and we're found wanting.
 
G Mus said:
From memory we lost on xScore and held on at the death by the skin of our teeth
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i mean we were up by 15 points with **** all left from memory before ryan and meek lost their minds at the end which made it far tighter then it would have been otherwise
 

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royale with cheese said:
Just checked the Geelong game again, we kept them to 1 goal for two quarters in a game they had both Cameron and Hawkins playing. Can't tell me that was luck - Cameron didn't score!
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That was because we had griffin Logue to tag him. Curnow too.
Watch cameron and curnow kick 15 goals between them against is this year without Logue in sight to stop them both.
 
Kram said:
Pyke? Hinkley?

Geez I know it's been a very poor start to the season but at least try to show a little dignity.
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Both are experienced coaches.

Pyke had a solid 4 year stint at the crows. Saying that, crows board are ruthless in the past.

If you spend 2 years in a row not making finals at the crows, you are sacked.

It happened to Robert Shaw, Neil Craig, Brenton Sanderson and Don Pyke.

Hinkley has had his flaws. He hasn't got Port a flag. But he has won finals. He has won 5 finals to be exact.

Looking at freos coaches...

Neesham won 0 finals.

Drum won 0 finals.

Connolly got us finals from 2003 and 2006. Just that one final in 2006.

Mark Harvey got us to finals in 2010. Won 1 final in 2010.

Ross Lyon got us to finals in 2012-5. Won 1 final in 2012, 2 in 2013, 0 in 2014 and 1 in 2015. 4 finals wins all up.

Justin Longmuir got us finals in 2022. Just that one Elim final win in 2022.
 
Wigarus said:
Whenever I think of a talented list, I think of midfielders that rack up big numbers and regularly kick goals, say 3 goals in 4 games or so. I don't see that anywhere on our current list. I think of big key forwards that can take pack marks and kick a couple goals a game and occasionally kick a bag. I don't see that on our current list. I see small forwards that are dangerous at ground level and kick a couple goals a game - we maybe have that on our list but between Walters, Switkowski and Schultz they are all lacking something that makes them legitimate A graders.

Prime Hayden Ballantyne would walk into our forward line and is easily better than either shultz or Switkowski, Walters is nowhere near his 2013 self, Pavlich would walk into the forward line or midfield. Chris Mayne while nowhere near an A grader would still be an improvement on Treacy / Amiss. Not only did he kick goals but he added some real forward pressure.

I honestly don't understand how anyone could look at our current list and think it's the most talented we've ever had. Our current midfield is as middle of the road as it gets, we don't have good wingers, and we don't have tall mids capable of taking a contested mark. We don't have contested beasts you can rely on to extract the ball and push it forward at the end of a quarter. Sandi, Barlow, Fyfe, Neale, Hill, Crowley, and DPearce is way more talented than the midfield we currently have, not to mention that by 2013 they were all battle-hardened with finals experience

I mean sure JLos a dud, but even Ross would struggle with the list we've got.
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Talent =/= ability.

Talent is the potential for ability and whilst we have a couple of holes, the potential for ability is equal/higher than any other team we've had. Doesn't mean they'll actually become that good. That said, how many times have we finished 5th or better? By that metric, they're already about the 4th best team we've had and most of the team is a few years off their prime.
 
royale with cheese said:
Yep, it's not that we didn't play good footy last year, it's that we eventually got exposed as one dimensional. This was made apparent in the Gold Coast and Collingwood games, when we needed to play direct footy in the wet, couldn't and got thrashed. Now direct footy is the method of every team, and we're found wanting.
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Our losses last year, wet weather footy and to the Pies highlighted our
weaknesses.
Even that come from behind win in the first final, the first half is our style
under JLo. When the gameplan isn’t working we throw caution to the wind.
Pies don’t have the champion twin towers of other teams, they just know how
to control the tempo of games. They give their forwards a chance 1 on 1.
We are stuck in limbo and it’s similar to when Lyon confronted Clarkson.
An older gameplan against modern footy, and a club at its peak off the field
compared to a battler.
It’s not like we haven’t see it all before and the outcome is inevitable.
Saints have surrounded Lyon to protect him from himself, it’s a team sport.
but Freo only spend big on players, or chasing that big signing.
Reality is this is what we stand for.
 
wakojako said:
We didn't get figured out, the game has gone past us.
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It's both.

Look closely at the second half of last year. Teams worked us out. Our results were those of a side just outside the 8 ... hard fought wins against bottom sides and outplayed by good sides. Just lucky to get the Bulldogs who had poor defensive structures.

Last year we were 1st or 2nd for defending opposition entries and near the bottom for scoring efficiency. The faster ball movement has made defending harder, and now we can't cover our forward entry woes that have always been there.

Throw in a drop in collective output from Lobb, Acres, Mundy versus Jackson, Henry, JOM.

JL says our problems are contested ball and scoring efficiency. He's right. But the issues with our lack of forward talent and lack of size/power in the midfield were clear before the season started. I don't think it is a mental thing. The players to fix our problems are very inexperienced and we just have to wait on Jackson, Amiss, Sturt, Treacy, Erasmus, Johnson, Chapman, O'Driscoll.
 

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Alfonz said:
It's both.

Look closely at the second half of last year. Teams worked us out. Our results were those of a side just outside the 8 ... hard fought wins against bottom sides and outplayed by good sides. Just lucky to get the Bulldogs who had poor defensive structures.

Last year we were 1st or 2nd for defending opposition entries and near the bottom for scoring efficiency. The faster ball movement has made defending harder, and now we can't cover our forward entry woes that have always been there.

Throw in a drop in collective output from Lobb, Acres, Mundy versus Jackson, Henry, JOM.

JL says our problems are contested ball and scoring efficiency. He's right. But the issues with our lack of forward talent and lack of size/power in the midfield were clear before the season started. I don't think it is a mental thing. The players to fix our problems are very inexperienced and we just have to wait on Jackson, Amiss, Sturt, Treacy, Erasmus, Johnson, Chapman, O'Driscoll.
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Everyone can see this except the coaches?
Johnson in one game as the sub showed the poise missing.
We need a coach to show belief in the kids, and the kids mentioned are goers.
 
Alfonz said:
It's both.

Look closely at the second half of last year. Teams worked us out. Our results were those of a side just outside the 8 ... hard fought wins against bottom sides and outplayed by good sides. Just lucky to get the Bulldogs who had poor defensive structures.

Last year we were 1st or 2nd for defending opposition entries and near the bottom for scoring efficiency. The faster ball movement has made defending harder, and now we can't cover our forward entry woes that have always been there.

Throw in a drop in collective output from Lobb, Acres, Mundy versus Jackson, Henry, JOM.

JL says our problems are contested ball and scoring efficiency. He's right. But the issues with our lack of forward talent and lack of size/power in the midfield were clear before the season started. I don't think it is a mental thing. The players to fix our problems are very inexperienced and we just have to wait on Jackson, Amiss, Sturt, Treacy, Erasmus, Johnson, Chapman, O'Driscoll.
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100%

I have been concerned about the size/power of our midfield since that flat-track bully Paddy Cripps beat Brayshaw up a couple of years ago and we went into our shells. "Hang on," I thought. "If Cripps is bullying us, we're in trouble."

Brodie is a big-bodied midfielder but he's not explosive. More double-jointed. His lack of dash just adds to the general one-paced nature of our midfield. They're not slow, exactly, just none of them have the power to really take off or the size to make sure they get through if they try.

JOM is not a big-bodied midfielder. And is one-paced.

The two of them together are just more of the same.

Added to the stumpy but willing mainstays of Brayshaw and Serong, you are lacking size and speed where it matters most.

The bit that shits me to tears is that Brayshaw would be one of the competition's best wingers in no time flat. Chuck him out there to trundle up and down all firkin day and get Erasmus (190cm) and Johnson (193cm) in there. At least for a bit. They are no smaller or rawer than the other young-uns who roll through their respective midfields. Throw Jackson in there on occasion.

It's not like we have to keep short-term winning in order to appease the fans. We're good at having no expectations and happily tracking the development of kids, thinking of a brighter future. That's our schtick. It's expectations we can't handle.

We have the solutions to our problems. The timing is wrong but you can't have everything. I would argue that having your stop-gap cannon fodder types get touched up every week, while your kids do well in the WAFL, is a backwards step in more ways than one. You're crushing the collective belief.
 
Bigger said:
100%

I have been concerned about the size/power of our midfield since that flat-track bully Paddy Cripps beat Brayshaw up a couple of years ago and we went into our shells. "Hang on," I thought. "If Cripps is bullying us, we're in trouble."

Brodie is a big-bodied midfielder but he's not explosive. More double-jointed. His lack of dash just adds to the general one-paced nature of our midfield. They're not slow, exactly, just none of them have the power to really take off or the size to make sure they get through if they try.

JOM is not a big-bodied midfielder. And is one-paced.

The two of them together are just more of the same.

Added to the stumpy but willing mainstays of Brayshaw and Serong, you are lacking size and speed where it matters most.

The bit that shits me to tears is that Brayshaw would be one of the competition's best wingers in no time flat. Chuck him out there to trundle up and down all firkin day and get Erasmus (190cm) and Johnson (193cm) in there. At least for a bit. They are no smaller or rawer than the other young-uns who roll through their respective midfields. Throw Jackson in there on occasion.

It's not like we have to keep short-term winning in order to appease the fans. We're good at having no expectations and happily tracking the development of kids, thinking of a brighter future. That's our schtick. It's expectations we can't handle.

We have the solutions to our problems. The timing is wrong but you can't have everything. I would argue that having your stop-gap cannon fodder types get touched up every week, while your kids do well in the WAFL, is a backwards step in more ways than one. You're crushing the collective belief.
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"The bit that shits me to tears is that Brayshaw would be one of the competition's best wingers in no time flat. Chuck him out there to trundle up and down all firkin day and get Erasmus (190cm) and Johnson (193cm) in there. At least for a bit. They are no smaller or rawer than the other young-uns who roll through their respective midfields. Throw Jackson in there on occasion."

100%. JLo needs to realise that loading up with experience just to sneak short term wins is not working. Need to use this step backward to pump games and synergy into this young talented group for a better crack next year. Even RTB has played Phillipou (and other kids) every game this year and not as the sub. That JLo is even more conservative than RTB is pi55ing us all off.
 
Big Animal said:
"The bit that shits me to tears is that Brayshaw would be one of the competition's best wingers in no time flat. Chuck him out there to trundle up and down all firkin day and get Erasmus (190cm) and Johnson (193cm) in there. At least for a bit. They are no smaller or rawer than the other young-uns who roll through their respective midfields. Throw Jackson in there on occasion."

100%. JLo needs to realise that loading up with experience just to sneak short term wins is not working. Need to use this step backward to pump games and synergy into this young talented group for a better crack next year. Even RTB has played Phillipou (and other kids) every game this year and not as the sub. That JLo is even more conservative than RTB is pi55ing us all off.
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I've been saying that for ages, the decision seems quite clear to me. With Bae and Noddy on the wing and Serong/Ras/Johno/Brodie in the center, you have a very elite midfield. I would say that midfield is about two years away so we need to make that move now and pump games into Ras/Johno.
 
Bigger said:
100%

I have been concerned about the size/power of our midfield since that flat-track bully Paddy Cripps beat Brayshaw up a couple of years ago and we went into our shells. "Hang on," I thought. "If Cripps is bullying us, we're in trouble."

Brodie is a big-bodied midfielder but he's not explosive. More double-jointed. His lack of dash just adds to the general one-paced nature of our midfield. They're not slow, exactly, just none of them have the power to really take off or the size to make sure they get through if they try.

JOM is not a big-bodied midfielder. And is one-paced.

The two of them together are just more of the same.

Added to the stumpy but willing mainstays of Brayshaw and Serong, you are lacking size and speed where it matters most.

The bit that shits me to tears is that Brayshaw would be one of the competition's best wingers in no time flat. Chuck him out there to trundle up and down all firkin day and get Erasmus (190cm) and Johnson (193cm) in there. At least for a bit. They are no smaller or rawer than the other young-uns who roll through their respective midfields. Throw Jackson in there on occasion.

It's not like we have to keep short-term winning in order to appease the fans. We're good at having no expectations and happily tracking the development of kids, thinking of a brighter future. That's our schtick. It's expectations we can't handle.

We have the solutions to our problems. The timing is wrong but you can't have everything. I would argue that having your stop-gap cannon fodder types get touched up every week, while your kids do well in the WAFL, is a backwards step in more ways than one. You're crushing the collective belief.
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If they project as expected, a Jackson, Serong, Johnson and Erasmus midfield would be quite formidable, with Brayshaw on the wing and Brodie rotating off the bench. But that’s a few years off and we’d still have severe forwardline problems.
 
theGav56 said:
Genuine question: why Graham?

Yes he did well with the WC forwards, but they were a pretty well structured, experienced and talented group.

Have you seen anything in his time with us to suggest he has what it takes?

It looks a bit like the weakest part of our structure has gone backwards, and that the off season forward strategy has some questionable aspects to it. Fyfe forward? Little development of Treacy. No apparent desire to play a medium forward. The use of Jackson not even looking like a work in progress. The vaunted next step of enhancing midfield/forward connection all but absent.

I look at our existing potential forward line and I expect more than is currently being produced.
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Very good questions and they're ones he would have to deal with in any interview. I will say Graham was on my list more on probability than on my actual preference to be honest. He wouldn't be my pick but I think he'd be Bell's if he was allowed another go at getting it right. I also don't have a deep knowledge of other assistants so probably lazily went for the name recognition over substance. I will add the fact he apparently was real close to getting the Pies job does hold some weight for me given how Macrae has turned out. I remember one report I read after Macrae was appointed was that he and Graham had very similar views on gameplans so that stuck now that Macrae has had the success he has had.

With that I think some of the queries you raise may not be solely laid at his feet. The 2 I would question most as to putting Graham on the hotseat for them would be our forward structure and our development of Treacy.

Firstly to structure. I've pointed it out before in other threads but our setup at stoppages at or near the centre (other than after goals) makes life difficult for our forwards and I believe this to be deemed by the senior coach as a central principle that the line coaches then work around. Is it Graham's job to push back on it if it's not working? Yes, no doubt. But he may have and JL2 has told him it won't be changed. Absolutely a concern but Graham could say at interview what was wrong with it and how he'd change it to get past that concern. If he is the author of that structure then that should kill his chances but without being sure, I'm of the belief he isn't.

With regard to the development of Treacy, I think this last pre-season we saw a glimpse of why Graham may be OK and JL2 is the trouble. During the PS (I've been told) the line coaches work more closely with the players than the head coach. The bulk of their 1-1 contact is with their line coaches and the S&C staff. Treacy in that environment was a different player to who we saw against the Saints and who has now been discarded since then. Again, that stinks of JL2 having a different view to most the rest of the world about a player and being dead wrong (other examples exist there too with Sturt and then Banfield at the other end of the spectrum). I'm guessing Treacy feels this lack of confidence and it impacts him in pushing too hard, second guessing etc. How JL2 has treated Treacy over the journey in selections is criminal in my view and any development being done would be drastically undermined by it. I think we saw the development growth of Treacy that Graham has contributed too in the PS and in the WAFL last year and JL2 is stepping all over it with poor use and even poorer selection treatment. The latest being replacing Tabs with 4 mid to small players flying over. He didn't give him even a sniff and instead decided on leaving Treacy behind. That means we must be going to play Jackson as a KPF again, replace him in the mids with Brodie and have Sturt join as a medium forward. Once again proof JL2 has no solid concept of the best structure and is the classic monkey throwing crap at the wall hoping some of it stick. Does Graham share blame in this? Yep. But I would give him the chance at interview to explain it away if he could.

I'd also say Fyfe up forward is yet to be determined. The Saints game was not an indication as the gameplan was so negative we had him and all the other forwards competing against 2-3 players each contest. That's not Fyfe or Graham's fault. JL2 blamed the players but he had 3 breaks to correct it and didn't so they either didn't listen (his problem) or it wasn't asked to be corrected (his fault).

The rest I agree which is why Graham wouldn't be my pick but I listed him for those reasons.
 
Snuffaluphagus said:
I’m sorry, that’s just rubbish, we lost like 7 games for the whole year including that final and knocked off a few very good teams away. We were a good team last year by almost any metric
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Not aimed at just you Snuff but to you and others saying "we were great last year so saying JL2 is to blame is wrong" and scorned the idea the Collingwood game was a good sign of our true level, you could perhaps consider that our best games (other than the final) were in the early to mid part of last season. After that point we got worked out. Alfonz and Bigger got it.

I'm told the Swans with Longmire went to school on us and used us to help them beat the D's the very next week and then went to school on us again after seeing us struggle with what Mitchell did with an outmanned Hawks outfit here. Longmuir perfected what he thought he saw with Mitchell's Hawks and we were exposed from that point. The best teams went to work on it from there. Yes we were good for a good part of the year, but we got worked out.

The only top 8 team to struggle with us last year after the bye was the Bulldogs who have a similarly limited and stubborn coach. One who's Premiership masks a huge waste of a heavily laden list. JL2 has had his plan worked out and the failing of him is not the original gameplan he executed, which did work and worked great. It's that now he has had his plan pulled apart, he's been exposed for not being equipped to respond, adjust and move forward - at least not yet. That current failing and his infuriating penchant for continuing to pick the wrong players despite the mountain of evidence he is wrong indicates he is unlikely to correct things, at least in my opinion.

I pray I'm wrong and will happily change my account name to "JL2 I Was Wrong" and keep it that way forever if he manages to correct his obvious and recurring errors but right now he's making me look smart amongst my group of mates who chat about this stuff and that is a worry. I'd much prefer to look dumb and have us succeed.
 
Wobbly Punt said:
Not aimed at just you Snuff but to you and others saying "we were great last year so saying JL2 is to blame is wrong" and scorned the idea the Collingwood game was a good sign of our true level, you could perhaps consider that our best games (other than the final) were in the early to mid part of last season. After that point we got worked out.

I'm told the Swans with Longmire went to school on us and used us to help them beat the D's the very next week and then went to school on us again after seeing us struggle with what Mitchell did with an outmanned Hawks outfit here. Longmuir perfected what he thought he saw with Mitchell's Hawks and we were exposed from that point. The best teams went to work on it from there. Yes we were good for a good part of the year, but we got worked out.

The only top 8 team to struggle with us last year after the bye was the Bulldogs who have a similarly limited and stubborn coach. One who's Premiership masks a huge waste of a heavily laden list. JL2 has had his plan worked out and the failing of him is not the original gameplan he executed, which did work and worked great. It's that now he has had his plan pulled apart, he's been exposed for not being equipped to respond, adjust and move forward - at least not yet. That current failing and his infuriating penchant for continuing to pick the wrong players despite the mountain of evidence he is wrong indicates he is unlikely to correct things, at least in my opinion.

I pray I'm wrong and will happily change my account name to "JL2 I Was Wrong" and keep it that way forever if he manages to correct his obvious and recurring errors but right now he's making me look smart amongst my group of mates who chat about this stuff and that is a worry. I'd much prefer to look dumb and have us succeed.
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All that's fine and I pretty much agree but not really what I was arguing. We were a good team last year, to say otherwise is rubbish. We've taken a step back this year and a lot of that is JL's fault so I'm not going to anoint him a good coach or even really support the guy until we see some improvement but I'm also not going to take people writing off last year as a fluke, you dont get to fluke whole seasons in this league.
 
Snuffaluphagus said:
All that's fine and I pretty much agree but not really what I was arguing. We were a good team last year, to say otherwise is rubbish. We've taken a step back this year and a lot of that is JL's fault so I'm not going to anoint him a good coach or even really support the guy until we see some improvement but I'm also not going to take people writing off last year as a fluke, you dont get to fluke whole seasons in this league.
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Fair call, I agree with that too. Yours was just the last post I remembered so quoted yours. As I said it wasn't just aimed at you.

I agree and don't think last year was a fluke.

But I also agree with G Mus when he said Collingwood showed our level by the end of the year.

Both can exist in the same universe. We were a good team, then we got worked out and became an average one.
 
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