USA Kamala Harris the 47th President of the United States - Hopefully.

[Chief]

Funny how you and Chief always turn up at the same time.

I'm not even a member of Mensa! Too awesome for them.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Funny how you and Chief always turn up at the same time.

It's cheaper to send the posts out in batches

 

[Chief]

Ana Kasparian

Ana can do no wrong!

 

[Chief]

Haha this is Ghost Patrol I own Chief's account !

 

[Ghost Patrol]

This is Chief, you are under a rest

 

[Stokey]

Well it often seems to start with "Oh some people on the left were a bit mean to me or others" and they then steadily move rightward.

Not necessarily saying that lefties can't be mean, oh they can.

But when you use that as part of your reasoning (which Tulsi, Ana Kasparian, Dave Rubin do), then either your principles driving your positions were fairly weak or maybe there's other motives.

So are you saying your principles must be rigid?

Kamala has walked away from a lot of her progressive pronciple since taking olover from Joe. Do you have issue with this?

 

[Stokey]

This is Chief, you are under a rest

Haha this is Ghost Patrol I own Chief's account !

 

[Blue1980]

Well it often seems to start with "Oh some people on the left were a bit mean to me or others" and they then steadily move rightward, while "championing" principles the politicians they end up supporting are worse on.

Not necessarily saying that lefties can't be mean, oh they can.

But when you use that as part of your reasoning (which Tulsi, Ana Kasparian, Dave Rubin do), then either your principles driving your positions were fairly weak or maybe there's other motives.

I mean its pretty pathetic isn't it? Like a few people disagreed with me on something who was also left leaning and were rude to me, my answer wouldn't be "well now I love low taxes for the rich, deregulation, anti-abortion and now suddenly terrified of trans people", its just so comically transparent.

Anyone can be mean and say mean things, but the core of it all should be what you believe and what kind of world you want it to be. In doing that, people will say mean things, lose their cool and often be douchebags, you just need to deal with it.

Also you can't just be all civil to people having bad faith arguments. It's the kind of thing that right wingers love to do, claim the left should be "better" or more "civil" than them. Its a tactic so they can try and frame the conversation say any batshit insane thing then act all pearl clutchy when you eventually lose it at them.

 

[Stokey]

Media people - you bet are opportunists. The whole pivot from the left, to enlightened centrist to always ending on the right, to try and maximise their audience. With Ana Kasparian, I and many others picked what she was doing 2 years ago, they just do it gradually enough to try and make it plausible.

Regular people - not necessarily as it can just be evolving beliefs and no obvious benefit like it is in the online political media sphere.

What is this left cult you speak of? There is no cult of Harris (not that I consider her left), there was no cult of Biden (not left either). What on earth are you blabbering on about? Why can't you ever put a good argument together?

No there is a cult of the left.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

No there is a cult of the left.

It's actually a cat.

 

[Bloods86]

No there is a cult of the left.

Please explain.

Because one of the frustrating things on the left, especially in US politics, is that unlike conservatives, there's far less unity around candidates and more purity testing, which means worse candidates are just going to get elected more.

Fight between elections and in primaries sure, but show pragmatism if the only alternative is a Republican.

 

[Chief]

This is Chief, you are under a rest

Haha screw you Chief and you're bad spelling !

 

[Blue1980]

No there is a cult of the left.

You support a party which is a cult. No one you judge as being "on the left" (pretty much anyone to the left of Mike Pence) is supporting any party with a cult leader.

 

[Blue1980]

It's actually a cat.

No we cancelled the cat for not being sufficiently woke

 

[Stokey]

Please explain.

Because one of the frustrating things on the left, especially in US politics, is that unlike conservatives, there's far less unity around candidates and more purity testing, which means worse candidates are just going to get elected more.

Fight between elections and in primaries sure, but show pragmatism if the only alternative is a Republican.

I don't know many convervative friends, if any, that would end a friendship over politics.

I know many examples of the left ending friendships when they find out they support the Tories or Trump.

My mate in Jackson refuses to talk politics as he knows with certainty that it will cost him friends.

To me that comes across as cultish.

Also the people like the ones mentioned above siddendly became enemy number 1 when the switch.

I dont give a shit if Arnie has endorsed Harris. It's not going to stop me ftom enjoying Predator and Total Recall.

 

[Blue1980]

I don't know many convervative friends, if any, that would end a friendship over politics.

I know many examples of the left ending friendships when they find out they support the Tories or Trump.

My mate in Jackson refuses to talk politics as he knows with certainty that it will cost him friends.

To me that comes across as cultish.

Also the people like the ones mentioned above siddendly became enemy number 1 when the switch.

I dont give a shit if Arnie has endorsed Harris. It's not going to stop me ftom enjoying Predator and Total Recall.

I don't actually know of any friendships which have ended over political disagreements either way, maybe I am just fortunate.

Been some heated arguments with people that I have seen with others and I have been involved with, but nothing that would end a friendship.

Maybe its different here in Australia than the US or UK.

 

[Bloods86]

I don't know many convervative friends, if any, that would end a friendship over politics.

I know many examples of the left ending friendships when they find out they support the Tories or Trump.

My mate in Jackson refuses to talk politics as he knows with certainty that it will cost him friends.

To me that comes across as cultish.

Also the people like the ones mentioned above siddendly became enemy number 1 when the switch.

I dont give a shit if Arnie has endorsed Harris. It's not going to stop me ftom enjoying Predator and Total Recall.

So anecdotes. And look I don't deny this occurs.

When I was a political and religious conservative, friends who were quite progressive certainly disagreed with me, but were patient, put up with what I now regard as BS arguments, and didn't disown me once they found out how conservative I was. Of course, I don't think I'd have supported Trump, because that doesn't just come down to how conservative you are or not, but whether you value democracy above other things.

I don't disown my friends or family that are conservative, and I certainly have conservative family members (more often than friends) that I will have passionate arguments with over the economy, unions, immigration, abortion, general political competence etc (though they do think Trump is a lunatic / criminal which is a plus).

 

[Blue1980]

So anecdotes. And look I don't deny this occurs.

When I was a political and religious conservative, friends who were quite progressive certainly disagreed with me, but were patient, put up with what I now regard as BS arguments, and didn't disown me once they found out how conservative I was. Of course, I don't think I'd have supported Trump, because that doesn't just come down to how conservative you are or not, but whether you value democracy above other things.

I don't disown my friends or family that are conservative, and I certainly have conservative family members (more often than friends) that I will have passionate arguments with over the economy, unions, immigration, abortion, general political competence etc (though they do think Trump is a lunatic / criminal which is a plus).

I have a mate who is a Trump loving ALP supporter who I try to avoid talking politics with as his position is so contradictory I can't talk anything logical with him. Like if he was LNP or super conservative here, I could at least understand it. It would be like Stokey being pro Labor in the UK but all in on Trump in the US, what can do you with that?

Here is a funny story though, back in 2004 I had guys who were similar age to me who thought I was the antichrist and an evil conservative as I voted for Howard. So to these people for years I was known as the conservative guy, now we were still friends but I felt like I was typecast. In saying that I didnt know shit about politics compared to what I do now, so some of those guys if they met me again now may still think of me as a conservative and be surprised how different I am to 15-20 years ago on those points. In saying that I was also pro democrat in the US.

 

[Stokey]

I don't actually know of any friendships which have ended over political disagreements either way, maybe I am just fortunate.

Been some heated arguments with people that I have seen with others and I have been involved with, but nothing that would end a friendship.

Maybe its different here in Australia than the US or UK.

It's definitely different in the US. The UK is better but I live in an area that votes in Diane Abbott with 75% of the vote so I am very much an outlier but don't let on my political position. At poker games with Dads they have openly said they would question frienships if they found out the friend was a Tory or a Reform voter.

 

[Bloods86]

I have a mate who is a Trump loving ALP supporter who I try to avoid talking politics with as his position is so contradictory I can't talk anything logical with him. Like if he was LNP or super conservative here, I could at least understand it. It would be like Stokey being pro Labor in the UK but all in on Trump in the US, what can do you with that?

Here is a funny story though, back in 2004 I had guys who were similar age to me who thought I was the antichrist and an evil conservative as I voted for Howard. So to these people for years I was known as the conservative guy, now we were still friends but I felt like I was typecast. In saying that I didnt know shit about politics compared to what I do now, so some of those guys if they met me again now may still think of me as a conservative and be surprised how different I am to 15-20 years ago on those points. In saying that I was also pro democrat in the US.

I was pro Coalition, Howard voter, and pro Republican through high school and uni (turned 18 in 2004 and enthusiastically voted for Howard/Coalition a month or so later). Pretty sure I went Family First in the Senate once or twice. I survived with friendships intact, and I was never shy about my views. Remember a couple of uni friends wondering why on earth I wasn't on the Obama bandwagon (for his first term).

 

[Stokey]

I do find it strange Bloods86 and Blue1980 that you question people that change their beliefs and political allegiances from left to right and say their value system must be weak but you have both admitted you have done the same, the only difference is that it is in the other direction.

 

[Blue1980]

It's definitely different in the US. The UK is better but I live in an area that votes in Diane Abbott with 75% of the vote so I am very much an outlier but don't let on my political position. At poker games with Dads they have openly said they would question frienships if they found out the friend was a Tory or a Reform voter.

I think the US and UK have had pretty seismic events in Trump and Brexit both happening in 2016 which has probably led to greater polarisation.

We haven't had that in Australia yet. Sure the voice didn't get up, but that was something we didn't have so wasn't a change per se.

 

[Blue1980]

I do find it strange Bloods86 and Blue1980 that you question people that change their beliefs and political allegiances from left to right and say their value system must be weak but you have both admitted you have done the same, the only difference is that it is in the other direction.

I did mention for regular folk I didn't see it as grifting if people move from left to right I said that in an earlier post to you.

I will freely admit my initial right wing beliefs were built on fairly flimsy weak premises. I wasn't a political commentator living and breathing politics day to day, hence why a change for a regular person in either direction is more understandable.

Now I just can't buy a political commentator like Ana Kasparian who has been on a progressive network for nigh on 15 years living and breathing the stuff, has suddenly had an epiphany. Its happened to too many people in the space and they all follow the same trajectory. First its "hey I am just asking questions" then "I am politically homeless/enlightened centrist", at this point they begin to only ever criticise the left when claiming to be centrists, and then eventually they cultivate a right wing audience and they reach their final form.

I say this as someone not a fan of the whole Democrat's trying to find any old neo con to campaign with them thinking that is a genius strategy to use Liz Cheney and laud Dick Cheney supporting them. I mean at least neither of them are claiming to be democrats (yet), but its still pretty dumb. They are old school neo-cons which both parties supporter bases hate.

 

[Bloods86]

I do find it strange Bloods86 and Blue1980 that you question people that change their beliefs and political allegiances from left to right and say their value system must be weak but you have both admitted you have done the same, the only difference is that it is in the other direction.

Well unlike the people I've called out, I didn't do it because other conservatives were mean to me / did something bad (part of the reasoning they have given). The other side wasn't that lucrative to me either, because most of my friends were fellow political and religious conservatives, and there weren't media/audience opportunities I was missing out on by staying where I was.

I readily admit my conservative political beliefs were actually not that solidly founded. I'd absolutely steamroll my younger self now. I know a lot more now about politics and have covered a lot more sources/perspectives than back then, so am more confident in my positions being solid. That's what growing up in regional SA on a diet of commercial TV news, the Advertiser, talkback radio and like-minded family/churchfolk will do. I see some of my former self in the people I argue with on BigFooty, which is why I give people the benefit of the doubt at first. I know to my progressive friends I came across as obnoxious at times, though I do recall actually mellowing my opinions when bested on certain points, and obviously didn't support any outright authoritarians back then, so it's not a direct comparison to some of the people on here.

And among other things, it was partly my conservative religious beliefs and respect for the Bible that pushed me leftward on some things like economics, asylum seekers. In my 20s I was exposed to different perspectives than I'd been brought up on, over what the Bible might have to say about personal priorities and thus political priorities if one was to let their religious views influence the political. So in a way my value system changed to some degree, but partially was just realising I'd gotten priorities wrong from the same source. Years later I'd left religion behind, and that had an impact on the remaining "social issues" which I was still conservative about.

Anyway, go Harris, because I'm way off topic.