Current Kathleen Folbigg * Convictions Overturned

[Lady O]

Looking for some history on this case, I found this article.

"Folbigg’s defence team retaliated to those accusations by claiming that 19-day-old Caleb, 8-month-old Patrick, 10-month-old Sarah and 19-month-old Laura all died from SIDS. They argued Caleb died from a floppy larynx, Patrick, an epileptic fit, Sarah, an inflamed uvula and Laura died of the heart disease myocarditis.

A panel of international experts disagreed and unanimously testified they had never heard of four children in the same family dying of SIDS. It was claimed the odds of it occurring within the same family was a staggering one in one trillion. Despite those odds a disturbing similarity has emerged between the Folbigg case and 258 similar British cases of infanticide where parents convicted of killing their children will have their cases re-opened."

International experts have now agreed that she was not responsible for the deaths of her children. I guess you just need the right international experts? Anyway, an interesting case.

 

[Kurve]

Looking for some history on this case, I found this article.

"Folbigg’s defence team retaliated to those accusations by claiming that 19-day-old Caleb, 8-month-old Patrick, 10-month-old Sarah and 19-month-old Laura all died from SIDS. They argued Caleb died from a floppy larynx, Patrick, an epileptic fit, Sarah, an inflamed uvula and Laura died of the heart disease myocarditis.

A panel of international experts disagreed and unanimously testified they had never heard of four children in the same family dying of SIDS. It was claimed the odds of it occurring within the same family was a staggering one in one trillion. Despite those odds a disturbing similarity has emerged between the Folbigg case and 258 similar British cases of infanticide where parents convicted of killing their children will have their cases re-opened."

International experts have now agreed that she was not responsible for the deaths of her children. I guess you just need the right international experts? Anyway, an interesting case.

Do you have a link to this please?

 

[MSB ROYS]

The science only said it was possible for 2 of the kids, didnt it? There is still no explanation on how the other 2 died?

Also, the talk is that she has been pardoned, but I thought it was just her sentence was commuted? The original sentence still stands?

The fact that these days you get 6 to 10 years for killing someone shows the flaws in our system because someone in prison in 1985 can be there longer than someone found guilty of the same crime in 2015.

If you read back in the last page or so of this thread, there is a discussion about the two boys.

 

[HairyO]

If you read back in the last page or so of this thread, there is a discussion about the two boys.

Yes, guesses about even more genetic mutations. But there is no science behind that is there? And even the science behind the 2 known genetic mutations are not always going to lead to an early death?

 

[Lady O]

Do you have a link to this please?

https://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=2586&page=1

Interestingly, Mark Tedeschi KC (then QC) was the Crown Prosecutor at that time (recently defending Shane Drumgold at the Inquiry into the trial of Bruce Lehrmann).

 

[MSB ROYS]

https://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=2586&page=1

Thanks for sharing. Our understanding of genetics, ability to rapidly and accurately sequence DNA and the number of human genomes available to reference is so far more advanced since this was written in 2004.

 

[Lady O]

Thanks for sharing. Our understanding of genetics, ability to rapidly and accurately sequence DNA and the number of human genomes available to reference is so far more advanced since this was written in 2004.

Yes, my point was that even in 2004, you could find a "panel of experts" prepared to testify to death of her four children by natural causes. What has changed? Are we bamboozled or persuaded by anything that can attribute their deaths to DNA? I personally think that the odds are far too high, and the evidence flimsy, but she has probably spent enough time in jail regardless.

 

[DropBearess]

Not everyone will agree KF is innocent. However, 20 years is a long time in custody. She is not of childbearing age anymore. Right or wrong, "beyond reasonable doubt" is the key to our justice system and must be respected.

 

[MSB ROYS]

Yes, my point was that even in 2004, you could find a "panel of experts" prepared to testify to death of her four children by natural causes. What has changed? Are we bamboozled or persuaded by anything that can attribute their deaths to DNA? I personally think that the odds are far too high, and the evidence flimsy, but she has probably spent enough time in jail regardless.

I see what you mean, experts were saying that it could be genetics in 2004. As DropBearess says, the science has now moved the narrative to "beyond reasonable doubt", where it wasn't considered this way in 2004.

What has changed? The ability to get genetic data from an old hospital blood spot (amazing work), ability to map this to a known but rare genetic defect, ability to run knock-out lethality experiments and the ability to share and compare data with experts who specifically study this rare condition. Not that it matters but I have worked as a scientist for a long time and I don't think that the evidence is flimsy but we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Kurve]

Don't see how the media could come under any punishment (or perhaps even the police/government) - the charges against her weren't removed. .

Unless she gets them overturned, I'm not sure she'll be in line for any compensation.

She might be successful in seeing the convictions quashed on appeal.

It will now be up to the head of the inquiry to refer the case to the Court of Criminal Appeal to consider whether the convictions should be quashed.

Ms Folbigg could then sue the state of NSW for compensation or seek an ex gratia payment.

Kathleen Folbigg pardoned after 20 years in jail, as ex-husband maintains her guilt

Craig Folbigg's lawyer said his client's view "has not changed whatsoever" as his ex-wife walks free after two decades behind bars.

www.abc.net.au

 

[BFew]

Ms Folbigg could then sue the state of NSW for compensation or seek an ex gratia payment.

Is any ex-gratia payment dependent on the convictions being quashed?

 

[Kurve]

Is any ex-gratia payment dependent on the convictions being quashed?

I don't think so ..

 

[Pamcake1]

Not a day to soon. She should have never been convicted. I feel for her her whole life to date ruined and wasted. I hope her coming years bring nothing but joy for her.

Long road to freedom: Kathleen Folbigg's tragic life started well before her babies died

Kathleen Folbigg was no stranger to tragedy when all of her children died before their second birthdays. This is how someone once known as Australia's worst female serial killer was freed from prison.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Kwality]

Yes, my point was that even in 2004, you could find a "panel of experts" prepared to testify to death of her four children by natural causes. What has changed? Are we bamboozled or persuaded by anything that can attribute their deaths to DNA? I personally think that the odds are far too high, and the evidence flimsy, but she has probably spent enough time in jail regardless.

The Folbigg case has been revisited time & time again:

Timeline of Kathleen Folbigg's case

Kathleen Folbigg's near-two-decade pursuit to have her homicide convictions overturned continue with a petition to the NSW governor calling for a pardon.

thewest.com.au

See the timeline:
* 1987 - Kathleen marries Craig Folbigg

* FEBRUARY 20, 1989 - Caleb Folbigg dies aged 19 days

* FEBRUARY 13, 1991 - Patrick Folbigg dies aged eight months

* AUGUST 30, 1993 - Sarah Folbigg dies aged 10 months

* MARCH 1, 1999 - Laura Folbigg dies, aged 18 months

* OCTOBER 24, 2003 - Folbigg sentenced to 40 years in prison for murder, non-parole period is 30 years. Later reduced on appeal to 30 years with a minimum of 25 years

• SEPTEMBER 2, 2005 - High Court refuses to grant special leave to appeal
• JUNE 10, 2015 - NSW governor David Hurley receives petition for review of convictions based on forensic pathology findings

• OCTOBER 28, 2018 - Former judge Reginald Blanch begins hearing inquiry into convictions
• MAY 2019 - An international medical registry reports that two US children have died of the mutation found in Sarah and Laura
• JULY 2019 - Blanch inquiry finds no reasonable doubt to Folbigg's convictions - v Validation of Folbigg mutation could not be completed before end of inquiry
• OCTOBER 2019 - Folbigg's lawyers apply for judicial review of the Blanch inquiry
• NOVEMBER 2020 - Likely role of CALM2 mutation in Sarah and Laura's death confirmed in world-leading study
• MARCH 3, 2021 - Scientists' petition for Folbigg pardon sent to NSW Governor Margaret Beazley
• MARCH 24, 2021 - NSW Court of Appeal dismisses challenge to Blanch inquiry, stating the conclusion was not at odds with the scientific evidence

 

[HairyO]

The Folbigg case has been revisited time & time again:

Timeline of Kathleen Folbigg's case

Kathleen Folbigg's near-two-decade pursuit to have her homicide convictions overturned continue with a petition to the NSW governor calling for a pardon.

thewest.com.au

See the timeline:
* 1987 - Kathleen marries Craig Folbigg

* FEBRUARY 20, 1989 - Caleb Folbigg dies aged 19 days

* FEBRUARY 13, 1991 - Patrick Folbigg dies aged eight months

* AUGUST 30, 1993 - Sarah Folbigg dies aged 10 months

* MARCH 1, 1999 - Laura Folbigg dies, aged 18 months

* OCTOBER 24, 2003 - Folbigg sentenced to 40 years in prison for murder, non-parole period is 30 years. Later reduced on appeal to 30 years with a minimum of 25 years

• SEPTEMBER 2, 2005 - High Court refuses to grant special leave to appeal
• JUNE 10, 2015 - NSW governor David Hurley receives petition for review of convictions based on forensic pathology findings

• OCTOBER 28, 2018 - Former judge Reginald Blanch begins hearing inquiry into convictions
• MAY 2019 - An international medical registry reports that two US children have died of the mutation found in Sarah and Laura
• JULY 2019 - Blanch inquiry finds no reasonable doubt to Folbigg's convictions - v Validation of Folbigg mutation could not be completed before end of inquiry
• OCTOBER 2019 - Folbigg's lawyers apply for judicial review of the Blanch inquiry
• NOVEMBER 2020 - Likely role of CALM2 mutation in Sarah and Laura's death confirmed in world-leading study
• MARCH 3, 2021 - Scientists' petition for Folbigg pardon sent to NSW Governor Margaret Beazley
• MARCH 24, 2021 - NSW Court of Appeal dismisses challenge to Blanch inquiry, stating the conclusion was not at odds with the scientific evidence

So there has been zero official inquiry into Caleb and Patrick. And the science says its possible that Sarah and Laura died of a genetic mutation... but how common/uncommon is the genetic mutation and how common/uncommon is death?

One in 35 million for the mutation but does it 100% lead to death? Or 50% die? 10% die?

I cant find anything on that.

 

[jason_recliner]

Yes, my point was that even in 2004, you could find a "panel of experts" prepared to testify to death of her four children by natural causes. What has changed? Are we bamboozled or persuaded by anything that can attribute their deaths to DNA? I personally think that the odds are far too high, and the evidence flimsy, but she has probably spent enough time in jail regardless.

Genetic and other microbiological science today is SO much more advanced than 20 years ago.

 

[utility]

Ms Folbigg could then sue the state of NSW for compensation or seek an ex gratia payment.

Not bad for a convicted serial killer.

I'm more curious about the pardon process. Anyone know details around this? I don't believe the A-G obtained this from the King so what empowers a pollie to free convicted criminals?

 

[HairyO]

Not bad for a convicted serial killer.

I'm more curious about the pardon process. Anyone know details around this? I don't believe the A-G obtained this from the King so what empowers a pollie to free convicted criminals?

The conviction still stands at the moment. All they have done is commute the sentence. So right now I wouldnt think she has a right to sue or receive compensation. But that doesnt mean it wont be given. Probably depends on the media and public response more than anything else.

Genetic and other microbiological science today is SO much more advanced than 20 years ago.

There was a review including scientific research in 2019. That is only 4 years ago.

 

[BFew]

I hope Folbigg's ex-husband is getting the support he needs.

It's reported that he's still of the belief that she murdered all 4 infants.

The whopping sum paid for Kathleen Folbigg's tell-all TV interview

Kathleen Folbigg, 55, was convicted of three counts of murder and one of manslaughter in 2003 after her babies Patrick, Sarah, Laura and Caleb died in suspicious circumstances between 1989 and 1999.

www.dailymail.co.uk

'PUBLISHED: 07:49 AEST, 6 June 2023 | UPDATED: 11:21 AEST, 6 June 2023'

'Craig Folbigg, the father of the four children, has 'not changed his view' on the babies' causes of death despite a new inquiry finding there was reasonable doubt over her convictions. '

 

[jason_recliner]

There was a review including scientific research in 2019. That is only 4 years ago.

Significant advances every year but I'm not a specialist and couldn't say whether they're applicable to this case.

 

[BFew]

Wouldn't Folbigg's ex-husband also have a case for an ex-gratia payment from the NSW Government for having been living with the curse of having been seen as the ex-husband of Australia's ex-worst female/infant serial killer?

And for having not been corrected on his possible mis-interpretation of Folbigg's diaries by so-called experts (or lack of use of a range of experts) in the original trial that convicted Folbigg.

If so, so even if he turns around now and claims that he now thinks that there is either is reasonable doubt on whether she killed any of the 4 infants, or that he does not believe she killed any of them, is he going to be believed in his sincerity about this, if he then attempts to monetise his victim status in this tragic case.

Who's going to pay up big $ to get Craig Folbigg's side of the story for a TV special?

Probably Seven from the way they have promoted/defended Bruce Lehrmann and Ben Roberts-Smith in recent times.

 

[Kurve]

Kathleen speaks in a video.

Kathleen Folbigg 'extremely humbled' and 'grateful' after release

Ms Folbigg spent her first day of freedom since 2003 enjoying simple pleasures, like a comfortable bed and pizza, her best friend Tracy Chapman says.

www.abc.net.au

 

[HairyO]

Wouldn't Folbigg's ex-husband also have a case for an ex-gratia payment from the NSW Government for having been living with the curse of having been seen as the ex-husband of Australia's ex-worst female/infant serial killer?

And for having not been corrected on his possible mis-interpretation of Folbigg's diaries by so-called experts (or lack of use of a range of experts) in the original trial that convicted Folbigg.

If so, so even if he turns around now and claims that he now thinks that there is either is reasonable doubt on whether she killed any of the 4 infants, or that he does not believe she killed any of them, is he going to be believed in his sincerity about this, if he then attempts to monetise his victim status in this tragic case.

Who's going to pay up big $ to get Craig Folbigg's side of the story for a TV special?

Probably Seven from the way they have promoted/defended Bruce Lehrmann and Ben Roberts-Smith in recent times.

She is still guilty of killing her 4 children. They just let her out of gaol early.

He still believes she killed them and is angry and upset that she it out.

 

[Kurve]

He still believes she killed them and is angry and upset that she it out.

It's going to be very difficult for him, he turned his wife in to the police by handing her diaries over and gave evidence against her.

 

[BFew]

Crikey today.
Some things that Craig Folbigg said about 20 years ago, and an article from 20 years ago going into more detail on the matter.

Kathleen Folbigg was thrown into the abyss by a medieval justice system

Verdicts are passed on people's souls, based on passing cultural obsessions, making rapid and thorough appeals near-impossible.

www.crikey.com.au

Kathleen Folbigg was thrown into the abyss by a medieval justice system​

Verdicts are passed on people's souls, based on passing cultural obsessions, making rapid and thorough appeals near-impossible.
GUY RUNDLE
JUN 06, 2023
...
The diaries were what did her in, in the public eye. Taken to the police by the estranged husband she had left — and whom police recorded saying, of Folbigg, “I’ll **** your life, you ****ed mine” — in the hands of the prosecution they were transformed from stores of wayward thoughts into statements of conscious intent or reflection on actions done.'

Father of dead babies says he lied to police

www.smh.com.au

Father of dead babies says he lied to police​

April 8, 2003 — 10.00am
...
'Mr Folbigg told the NSW Supreme Court that on May 23, 1999 he changed a statement given to police four days earlier, in effect making Kathleen Folbigg appear to be a better mother.
...
When Mr Folbigg amended his statement on May 23, his wife moved back to live with him for a short time.

However, he then allegedly threatened her that he would make the police think she did kill her own children.

Police secretly recorded conversations between the couple which revealed Craig Folbigg saying: "I was so frustrated, I was hurting, so I thought, 'Fine, I'll f---ing fix this.

"I'll f--- your life, you f---ed mine. I'll go and tell some f---ing horrible things about you that the police think you did it anyway."

In a later recorded conversation Mr Folbigg tells his wife he could be a "a wicked person, a deviate person" using whatever he could to sell a car, including his own children's lives.
...'