Player Watch Kayle Kirby (Delisted 2018)

[Apex36]

You know Apex, it's ok for other people to have a different opinion to your own.

And I have no problem with that, as long as their opinion is actually informed and not cherry picking a few random internet posts.

 

[frizzle]

My initial thought was Broomy.

Yeah think you are right.

 

[Apex36]

I'd say that neither of us are in a good position to make a fully informed judgement, albeit you, having attended some training sessions, are in a better position.

From reading training reports, it seems to be standard practice for our unfit guys at training sessions to do not much more than run laps of varying pace. My issue goes beyond Kayle Kirby and goes to the motivation of the whole group. When players retire, we quite often hear the reason is that they can't face another injury rehab. Thus the demotivating potential of mindlessly running laps shouldn't just be dismissed as a young guy needing to shape up or ship out. If the vast majority of rehab is spent mindlessly running laps, I'm not surprised they become demotivated. This could affect the playing longevity of our whole list. As well as the passion for the game and the positive consequences of that for the whole group. The way I see it, we should expect our coaching staff, when faced with a group of players not in condition for full training, which is inevitably the case, to be able to come up something a bit more stimulating, varied and enjoyable than 'run some laps.' A certain amount of jogging is obviously necessary, but it isn't the only way of improving endurance and we should expect our coaching group to be able to come up with other methods on a regular basis, but it sounds like at training, if you aren't fully fit, you run laps.

So what amazing things do Hawthorn for example, do differently to us in regards to getting players fit? Not even being a smartarse here, I'm genuinely curious to know given you've previously used them as an example?

 

[Apex36]

Is it Kirby in the back left of this photo?

But, but, but.... slow laps!

 

[Apex36]

It's nice that they are finally letting Kirby join in.

He's been joining in sporadically the whole time...

 

[sr36]

And I have no problem with that, as long as their opinion is actually informed and not cherry picking a few random internet posts.

When it comes to cherry picking, this is a classic example. In a discussion where someone disagrees with you, ignore the majority of their argument, find some incidental point to cherry pick and have a go at it as you feel it makes you the winner and discredits their whole argument. It's proving to be an effective tactic for a politician in the twitter age, but it's cheap and nasty and doesn't do your obvious intelligence justice.

 

[Apex36]

When it comes to cherry picking, this is a classic example. In a discussion where someone disagrees with you, ignore the majority of their argument, find some incidental point to cherry pick and have a go at it as you feel it makes you the winner and discredits their whole argument. It's proving to be an effective tactic for a politician in the twitter age, but it's cheap and nasty and doesn't do your obvious intelligence justice.

Keen to know what I cherry picked? If I did so, apologies, it's a pet hate of mime.

 

[MagpieBat]

Keen to know what I cherry picked? If I did so, apologies, it's a pet hate of mime.

Cherrys?

 

[Unknown Identity]

It's a shame the sub rule has gone, (as much as i hate it) would be the perfect sub! 1 quarter, 3 goals.. absolutely knackered after 20-25 minutes!

 

[Saintly Viewed]

I don't think that anyone's suggesting it's not his fault, but that doesn't mean that the coaching staff are handling the situation well.

A guy's unfit, can they really not come up with something better than let's get him to run slow laps by himself? If a high school PE teacher was interviewing for a job and was to present 'slow laps whilst everyone else is training' as an appropriate strategy to improve the performance of a talented but unfit student, he wouldn't get the job - not even at the crappest school in town.

Unless someone has insight into Kirbys full training regime not sure I can buy hes just doing laps.

Also I would suggest most afl sides are aware of psychology and different regimes and what players can and can't cope with. Not sure it's just the domain of us wise heads on the internet.
That said, I'm sure we as a club have made mistakes
But one thing I am certain of, OUR COACHES want Kirby to succeeed much much much more than we do,
Their (the coaches) livelihood and reputation is all about their players doing as well as possible.

Kirby seems a talent, it's up to the club and him to get the most out of the situation.

Prerequisite to any afl career one assumes is basic to high level fitness.

Otherwise they can just join the internet as it's simpler, don't need to be fit then.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

I've been to a few sessions. He's participated in some match sims, and when he was doing repeat sprints with Maynard (who lapped him) he had Jamie Cassidy-McNamara (I think that's his name) running alongside him the whole way encouraging him to push through.

You mean they didn't get him to do the walk of shame?

 

[Saintly Viewed]

Are you saying that some people prefer a whip to a feather?

Depends who is doing the whipping.....

 

[sr36]

Keen to know what I cherry picked? If I did so, apologies, it's a pet hate of mime.

My point, admittedly not expressed very succinctly, is that it sounds like Kirby and others who are not fit enough for full training just spend the majority of their time at training running laps. I'm suggesting that if this is the case it's poor practice - regardless of what other clubs do. The reason why I used a high school teacher for an analogy is that I do think there are a huge number of similarities in the job of teacher and coach - obviously the content that your maths teacher delivers is totally different, but I don't see why the principles and methodology regarding differentiation to suit the individual and varying instruction and activities to encourage engagement should be any different. For a long time, my daughter was very good at some aspects of maths, but very weak when it came to the core knowledge of basic number facts - eg. times tables. If her maths teacher told me that they'd put her in the corner and have her practicing her times tables in the same way every lesson - I'd have been appalled. Fortunately, she had a good teacher. Yes, for her to succeed in Maths, you've got to get her to know her number facts, but you vary how she practices it and you involve her as much as possible in the standard lesson. I view players who lack the fitness to fully achieve on the football field in the same light, be it for the reasons that Kirby does or if they are in rehab. Kirby sounds like he is excellent at some attributes, but at this stage lacks the fitness to succeed. Yes, you've got to get them to work on their fitness, but you vary it and you involve them as much as possible. You don't leave them on the outskirts performing the same fitness building activity every training session. As far as I'm concerned, we've got enough coaches to plan different activities for me to not read in every training report that those in the rehab group ran laps. By coaches, I don't just mean Buckley, I mean our fitness staff and those in their command who should be saying - Jesus Christ, you've had them running laps for 3 weeks, come up with something else you slack ####.

When I pointed out that I don't attend training, which I did so to point out that I don't really know if we our approach is as backward as is suggesting by the regular repetition of 'the rehab group ran laps'. You dismissed my entire argument by quoting "I don't attend training" with the simple statement.

There's your issue. You're not really in a particularly good position to make an informed judgement.

I'd classify that as cherry picking.

I've got no idea if any other clubs do it better than we do. I'm not even sure how we do it. The reason why I used Hawthorn and Clarkson's reported favourable attitude towards those with a teaching background as an example wasn't to support their training methods, but it was a counter to your cherry picking statement to dismiss my high school teacher analogy.

This isn't high school and Kirby is not a child.

You did then make some reasonable points not just reliant on twitter style dismissiveness, although I don't agree with your points, as I feel they differ from my view of the need to create an environment that encourages enthusiasm and motivation.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

My point, admittedly not expressed very succinctly, is that it sounds like Kirby and others who are not fit enough for full training just spend the majority of their time at training running laps. I'm suggesting that if this is the case it's poor practice - regardless of what other clubs do. .

If being the operative word in these sentences.

Bottom line you believe what you read on this thread or what you selectively choose to read on this thread (ie cherry picking) and have drawn a conclusion from it assuming it to be fact. Others have clearly stated he hias done more than laps and is participting in many drills.

 

[ClaytonM]

Perhaps some Zumba action might help.

I don't think KK has the hair for Zumba, but it might explain Langdon's recent do. Obviously too much rehab.

 

[TradeDraft]

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Looks like he's doing laps of the planet with a leap like that

 

[jmac70]

I don't think KK has the hair for Zumba, but it might explain Langdon's recent do. Obviously too much rehab.

Langdon will go blind with all that rehab...

 

[jmac70]

Looks like he's doing laps of the planet with a leap like that

Clearly he lost his hat in the zero gravity of space.

 

[Apex36]

My point, admittedly not expressed very succinctly, is that it sounds like Kirby and others who are not fit enough for full training just spend the majority of their time at training running laps. I'm suggesting that if this is the case it's poor practice - regardless of what other clubs do. The reason why I used a high school teacher for an analogy is that I do think there are a huge number of similarities in the job of teacher and coach - obviously the content that your maths teacher delivers is totally different, but I don't see why the principles and methodology regarding differentiation to suit the individual and varying instruction and activities to encourage engagement should be any different. For a long time, my daughter was very good at some aspects of maths, but very weak when it came to the core knowledge of basic number facts - eg. times tables. If her maths teacher told me that they'd put her in the corner and have her practicing her times tables in the same way every lesson - I'd have been appalled. Fortunately, she had a good teacher. Yes, for her to succeed in Maths, you've got to get her to know her number facts, but you vary how she practices it and you involve her as much as possible in the standard lesson. I view players who lack the fitness to fully achieve on the football field in the same light, be it for the reasons that Kirby does or if they are in rehab. Kirby sounds like he is excellent at some attributes, but at this stage lacks the fitness to succeed. Yes, you've got to get them to work on their fitness, but you vary it and you involve them as much as possible. You don't leave them on the outskirts performing the same fitness building activity every training session. As far as I'm concerned, we've got enough coaches to plan different activities for me to not read in every training report that those in the rehab group ran laps. By coaches, I don't just mean Buckley, I mean our fitness staff and those in their command who should be saying - Jesus Christ, you've had them running laps for 3 weeks, come up with something else you slack ####.

When I pointed out that I don't attend training, which I did so to point out that I don't really know if we our approach is as backward as is suggesting by the regular repetition of 'the rehab group ran laps'. You dismissed my entire argument by quoting "I don't attend training" with the simple statement.



I'd classify that as cherry picking.

Fair enough, I guess you could say that was cherry picking, but my point stands. You and several others seem to be under the impression that Kirby is only doing laps at training. I can tell you first hand that's just not true, yet that seems to largely be ignored in favour of the 'slow laps' hyperbole.

I've got no idea if any other clubs do it better than we do. I'm not even sure how we do it. The reason why I used Hawthorn and Clarkson's reported favourable attitude towards those with a teaching background as an example wasn't to support their training methods, but it was a counter to your cherry picking statement to dismiss my high school teacher analogy.

I see. So we could very well have industry best practice in regards to fitness (but that's highly doubtful).
As it stands, from what I've seen, and what Collingwood media have conveniently posted today (99% chance lukem has been lurking in this thread), Kirby has been doing a combination of laps, sprints, and has been participating in match sims too. Fitness work has been given priority over sims and drills for obvious reasons.
Just a quick thought too... a player running laps stands out a lot more than a player doing match sim/drills. That's likely the reason we've seen so many 'Kirby was running laps' posts rather than 'Kirby was doing match sim' posts.

You did then make some reasonable points not just reliant on twitter style dismissiveness, although I don't agree with your points, as I feel they differ from my view of the need to create an environment that encourages enthusiasm and motivation.

As I said earlier, I've seen a coach shadowing and encouraging Kirby for an entire sprints drill. It's probably a bit much to expect a coach to dedicate his entire time to do that with laps though. There are 44 other players on the list that need to be coached and encouraged too.

 

[sr36]

Fair enough, I guess you could say that was cherry picking, but my point stands. You and several others seem to be under the impression that Kirby is only doing laps at training. I can tell you first hand that's just not true, yet that seems to largely be ignored in favour of the 'slow laps' hyperbole.


I see. So we could very well have industry best practice in regards to fitness (but that's highly doubtful).
As it stands, from what I've seen, and what Collingwood media have conveniently posted today (99% chance lukem has been lurking in this thread), Kirby has been doing a combination of laps, sprints, and has been participating in match sims too. Fitness work has been given priority over sims and drills for obvious reasons.
Just a quick thought too... a player running laps stands out a lot more than a player doing match sim/drills. That's likely the reason we've seen so many 'Kirby was running laps' posts rather than 'Kirby was doing match sim' posts.

As I said earlier, I've seen a coach shadowing and encouraging Kirby for an entire sprints drill. It's probably a bit much to expect a coach to dedicate his entire time to do that with laps though. There are 44 other players on the list that need to be coached and encouraged too.

I'm happy to hear all of that. I can't wait to see Kirby kicking some VFL games.

I'm not expecting constant one on one coaching for anyone, but I am hoping to hear something other than the rehab group ran laps with the occasional three quarter paced sprint - (hopefully they do give those with a niggle something different sometimes). Which I'm stoked to hear they've been doing with the guy who's rehabbing from an unfortunate beer and turkey swallowing Christmas injury. With the amount of resources we have there is no excuse for boring training/rehab regimes. It does affect motivation and thus performance. As you can probably tell, I hated running laps. Thankfully, the level I played and the amount of ground you could get away with covering in those days was such that I could get away with a one week preseason, but the boredom of training is why I stopped playing at the crap level I played, despite still loving game day.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Sr you managed to refer to yourself ten times in that post!

 

[lukem]

Fair enough, I guess you could say that was cherry picking, but my point stands. You and several others seem to be under the impression that Kirby is only doing laps at training. I can tell you first hand that's just not true, yet that seems to largely be ignored in favour of the 'slow laps' hyperbole.


I see. So we could very well have industry best practice in regards to fitness (but that's highly doubtful).
As it stands, from what I've seen, and what Collingwood media have conveniently posted today (99% chance lukem has been lurking in this thread), Kirby has been doing a combination of laps, sprints, and has been participating in match sims too. Fitness work has been given priority over sims and drills for obvious reasons.
Just a quick thought too... a player running laps stands out a lot more than a player doing match sim/drills. That's likely the reason we've seen so many 'Kirby was running laps' posts rather than 'Kirby was doing match sim' posts.

As I said earlier, I've seen a coach shadowing and encouraging Kirby for an entire sprints drill. It's probably a bit much to expect a coach to dedicate his entire time to do that with laps though. There are 44 other players on the list that need to be coached and encouraged too.

Hi Apex, yes, I'm lurking, but only because you tagged me!

On this note, here's the VFL team for Saturday - http://magpi.es/2ngSm4e It includes Cal Brown, Sam McLarty, Mitch McCarthy, Liam Mackie and Max Lynch as first-time Magpies. Some good storylines among those selected, so it should be worth watching.

Noticed a few queries regarding injury updates, too - the weekly Blackmores Injury Update will be back again this year (OUT: Balmey, long-term); we'll have our next one in the lead up to R1 against the Dogs.

#gopies

 

[sr36]

Sr you managed to refer to yourself ten times in that post!

25% of the words in this post are either my forum name or a pronoun representing me!

Are you obsessed with me too? Or are you just having a go at me, because I was critical of a point regarding coaching and thus I am a Buckley hating villain who must be attacked and ridiculed?

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Not obsessed with you in the least, nor with any poster. Perhaps you're obsessed with yourself! I just call it as I see it. Mentioning yourself ten times was amusing though. The threads about kirby and your point regarding coaching was laughable at this early stage of kirbys career, as it was based on a premise that wasn't true. No kirby is not just running laps and never has been just running laps.