- Apr 4, 2018
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It's always about Dusty in one way or another
Leigh Matthews Trophy most prestigious individual award
- Thread starter RCAB
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I think the thread is a misnomer. The Player’s MVP is certainly not the ‘most prestigious’. If you define prestige as fame and respect from the general public and from industry insiders, the one that is most talked about is the Brownlow.
A better question is which one best represents the season’s best player and that’s the one you ‘wish’ was the most prestigious.
None of them as perfect and by definition cannot be as it’s a mix of qualitative and quantitative assessment.
The Players’ MVP is highly subjective and subject to favouring general status in the game over many seasons versus one year’s outcome (because of lack of accountability week by week). It’s also highly dependent on whether players are footy heads or ignore all football besides their weekly game.
The Coaches votes has an inherent bias from the way each individual coach see the game and what they ask their players to do. It also requires all coaches to act objectively and some are clearly better at that than others.
The Brownlow is definitely the most flawed to me. If you had to create an award from scratch, getting the umpires to award the votes for it after every game would be one of last ideas on the table. They just don’t and cannot watch the game the way it should be to assess best on ground. You’d be better off asking a TV viewer pool after every game to get a more accurate assessment. And if you disagree I think the recent year’s absolute howlers (eg Neale last year) are well document and show the flaws in that system when it comes down to a few votes at the end. 3/2/1 is also less accurate than 5 votes from each coach by virtue of precision.
In the end I’d say the players and coaches top would more often correlate to truly best players in the game that season than the Brownlow. Whether one of the top 3-4 gets the award over the others is a bit of a toss of the coin based on game availability (eg this year you’d throw Heeney Cripps and Daicos in any order).
A better question is which one best represents the season’s best player and that’s the one you ‘wish’ was the most prestigious.
None of them as perfect and by definition cannot be as it’s a mix of qualitative and quantitative assessment.
The Players’ MVP is highly subjective and subject to favouring general status in the game over many seasons versus one year’s outcome (because of lack of accountability week by week). It’s also highly dependent on whether players are footy heads or ignore all football besides their weekly game.
The Coaches votes has an inherent bias from the way each individual coach see the game and what they ask their players to do. It also requires all coaches to act objectively and some are clearly better at that than others.
The Brownlow is definitely the most flawed to me. If you had to create an award from scratch, getting the umpires to award the votes for it after every game would be one of last ideas on the table. They just don’t and cannot watch the game the way it should be to assess best on ground. You’d be better off asking a TV viewer pool after every game to get a more accurate assessment. And if you disagree I think the recent year’s absolute howlers (eg Neale last year) are well document and show the flaws in that system when it comes down to a few votes at the end. 3/2/1 is also less accurate than 5 votes from each coach by virtue of precision.
In the end I’d say the players and coaches top would more often correlate to truly best players in the game that season than the Brownlow. Whether one of the top 3-4 gets the award over the others is a bit of a toss of the coin based on game availability (eg this year you’d throw Heeney Cripps and Daicos in any order).
There was an interview back a decade ago or so where players were asked about it and how much thought they put into it.
The response was they didn't even know all oppo players names on field and they often just voted for the known best player on that team.
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Any award not voted on a per-game basis is hugely flawed.
And the players aren’t arbiters of who has had the best year. Plenty openly say they don’t watch footy at all.
The coaches’ award is far more credible. Probably the 18 biggest footy heads in the country, living and breathing the game. And its done per game.
And the players aren’t arbiters of who has had the best year. Plenty openly say they don’t watch footy at all.
The coaches’ award is far more credible. Probably the 18 biggest footy heads in the country, living and breathing the game. And its done per game.
- Aug 15, 2014
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That might be true if the actual coaches voted on the award, which they don’t.
- Mar 2, 2015
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This is simply not true
Perhaps you think it applies this season with Bont beating out Cripps, Heeney, Hogan and Daicos for the MVP ???
But looking back through the honour roll of past winners, none of them were chosen based on their reputation.
They were all voted for based on having an exceptional season.
Brayshaw... Lachie Neale during Covid... Tom Mitchell... Swan... young Judd at West Coast... a young Nick Riewoldt.. Benny Cousins... Darcy... Crawf.... Banger Harvey... McKernan... Stynes... Millane.... Healy... Roosy.... Greene... TD...
I think people are far too critical of the players not giving a stuff, not watching games, not being footy heads, etc... They know who they believe the best player is. Maybe you don't need to watch every game. Who watches every game anyway?
I see people on here acting like they're opinions are better than everyone else's, but I bet they don't watch half the games either. That doesn't stop them from gobbing off with their crappy opinions, or from bagging the All Australian selection committee and the players' MVP voting.
I'm wouldn't matter what scoring system or voting system we had - people would still find faults and reasons to complain (mainly because their favourite player didn't win the award)
I personally think people get carried away by the week-to-week form of the top midfielders. The Brownlow and AFLCA awards are won and lost based on the weekly accumulation of BOGs... But I don't think this is always an accurate guide to who the real best player is.
I like the MVP award because it snaps back to reality - Bontempelli IS the best player, in my opinion. He gets robbed of many votes because he can play anywhere and his coach moves him around and he often parks him up forward.
Bont >>> Heeney, Cripps, Hogan and Daicos (in 2024)
It's close between Bont and Daicos, but I think Bont still edges him slightly.
MVP
1982 Leigh Matthews
1983 Terry Daniher
1984 Russell Greene
1985 Greg Williams
1986 Paul Roos
1987 Tony Lockett
1988 Gerard Healy
1989 Tim Watson
1990 Darren Millane
1991 Jim Stynes
1992 Jason Dunstall
1993 Gary Ablett
1994 Greg Williams
1995 Wayne Carey
1996 Corey McKernan
1997 Robert Harvey
1998 Wayne Carey
1999 Shane Crawford
2000 Anthony Koutoufides
2001 Andrew McLeod
2002 Michael Voss, Luke Darcy
2003 Michael Voss
2004 Nick Riewoldt
2005 Ben Cousins
2006 Chris Judd
2007 Gary Ablett Jr
2008 Gary Ablett Jr
2009 Gary Ablett Jr
2010 Dane Swan
2011 Chris Judd
2012 Gary Ablett Jr
2013 Gary Ablett Jr
2014 Nat Fyfe
2015 Nat Fyfe
2016 Patrick Dangerfield
2017 Dustin Martin
2018 Tom Mitchell
2019 Patrick Cripps
2020 Lachie Neale
2021 Marcus Bontempelli
2022 Andrew Brayshaw
2023 Marcus Bontempelli
2024 Marcus Bontempelli
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- Mar 25, 2019
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Their season was over though?
- May 5, 2016
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He was responding to a comment about the Carlton-Collingwood game which was very much a live game.
- Mar 25, 2019
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No Ross Lyon team is ever going to win a game by 200 points. Pies were cooked. Even then, the commentators were discussing his team feeding it to him on every occasion they could vs the Dees. One of the all time stat padding masterclasses
Plus, Flys said on numerous occasions that he felt Nicky was robbed of the awards last year due to injury. This year it was pretty clear that Fly was willing to take that into his own control and award him charity votes to make sure he'd get over the line at the end
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Great post.This is simply not true
Perhaps you think it applies this season with Bont beating out Cripps, Heeney, Hogan and Daicos for the MVP ???
But looking back through the honour roll of past winners, none of them were chosen based on their reputation.
They were all voted for based on having an exceptional season.
Brayshaw... Lachie Neale during Covid... Tom Mitchell... Swan... young Judd at West Coast... a young Nick Riewoldt.. Benny Cousins... Darcy... Crawf.... Banger Harvey... McKernan... Stynes... Millane.... Healy... Roosy.... Greene... TD...
I think people are far too critical of the players not giving a stuff, not watching games, not being footy heads, etc... They know who they believe the best player is. Maybe you don't need to watch every game. Who watches every game anyway?
I see people on here acting like they're opinions are better than everyone else's, but I bet they don't watch half the games either. That doesn't stop them from gobbing off with their crappy opinions, or from bagging the All Australian selection committee and the players' MVP voting.
I'm wouldn't matter what scoring system or voting system we had - people would still find faults and reasons to complain (mainly because their favourite player didn't win the award)
I personally think people get carried away by the week-to-week form of the top midfielders. The Brownlow and AFLCA awards are won and lost based on the weekly accumulation of BOGs... But I don't think this is always an accurate guide to who the real best player is.
I like the MVP award because it snaps back to reality - Bontempelli IS the best player, in my opinion. He gets robbed of many votes because he can play anywhere and his coach moves him around and he often parks him up forward.
Bont >>> Heeney, Cripps, Hogan and Daicos (in 2024)
It's close between Bont and Daicos, but I think Bont still edges him slightly.
MVP
1982 Leigh Matthews
1983 Terry Daniher
1984 Russell Greene
1985 Greg Williams
1986 Paul Roos
1987 Tony Lockett
1988 Gerard Healy
1989 Tim Watson
1990 Darren Millane
1991 Jim Stynes
1992 Jason Dunstall
1993 Gary Ablett
1994 Greg Williams
1995 Wayne Carey
1996 Corey McKernan
1997 Robert Harvey
1998 Wayne Carey
1999 Shane Crawford
2000 Anthony Koutoufides
2001 Andrew McLeod
2002 Michael Voss, Luke Darcy
2003 Michael Voss
2004 Nick Riewoldt
2005 Ben Cousins
2006 Chris Judd
2007 Gary Ablett Jr
2008 Gary Ablett Jr
2009 Gary Ablett Jr
2010 Dane Swan
2011 Chris Judd
2012 Gary Ablett Jr
2013 Gary Ablett Jr
2014 Nat Fyfe
2015 Nat Fyfe
2016 Patrick Dangerfield
2017 Dustin Martin
2018 Tom Mitchell
2019 Patrick Cripps
2020 Lachie Neale
2021 Marcus Bontempelli
2022 Andrew Brayshaw
2023 Marcus Bontempelli
2024 Marcus Bontempelli
I reckon the Players MVP is a better guide to who the best player across any given season is than certainly the Brownlow.
I have no qualms with any winner, and it has historically recognised ruckmen and key position players more than the other awards (though still think there's room to rate the key position players higher - a recent example was Tom Hawkins in 2019, who was outstanding during the home and away season, and a big reason for Geelong finishing top of the ladder. They weren't the same team without him in the finals - which is the very definition of 'Most Valuable'. Meanwhile, a player from a non finalist won it.)
- Mar 25, 2019
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My issue is with Fly's rigged votes. Nicky played very well this season despite the squibs here and there
- Mar 25, 2019
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This thread isn't about me or you Fadgey. It's about the awards. If coaches are going to show clear bias in their votes for a player then the coaches award will lose its credibility.
Part of the reason I've always maintained that the Brownlow is the best award in footy. It has its own issues but the umpires are the closest to a neutral POV as there is in footy.
- Sep 14, 2003
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There are 3 major individual awards in the AFL.
One is decided by the most hated and biased people in football (according to fans every week, sometimes for decades - see 1966, 1979 and 2016 Grand Finals), who according to virtually everyone who posts on BF have no idea about the rules of the game, the feel of the game, or how to play the game.
One is decided by 18 completely biased and often crazy rulers.
And the third is decide by the very people that we worship and live vicariously through.
I know which award I would rather win, and it definitely is not the Umpire's Pet Award AKA the Brownlow Trophy.
This is not a new opinion either, as I have been saying this for decades - yes I am an old campaigner who remembers "superstars" of the game winning the umpire's trophy such as Brian Wilson, Brad Hardie, Shane Woewoden and Tony Liberatore.
One is decided by the most hated and biased people in football (according to fans every week, sometimes for decades - see 1966, 1979 and 2016 Grand Finals), who according to virtually everyone who posts on BF have no idea about the rules of the game, the feel of the game, or how to play the game.
One is decided by 18 completely biased and often crazy rulers.
And the third is decide by the very people that we worship and live vicariously through.
I know which award I would rather win, and it definitely is not the Umpire's Pet Award AKA the Brownlow Trophy.
This is not a new opinion either, as I have been saying this for decades - yes I am an old campaigner who remembers "superstars" of the game winning the umpire's trophy such as Brian Wilson, Brad Hardie, Shane Woewoden and Tony Liberatore.
- Mar 2, 2015
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The collective late-season sooking by Blues fans has been one of the highlights of the year
- Giving up on their own team after the Hawks spanked them
- Jamming the talkback lines for the next 3,4,5 days with their moaning and whining
- Throwing a bottle at the goal ump (and booing) cos the umpires weren't giving their boys the usual reach-around
- Booing their players off the field after the loss to St Kilda
- Melting down cos Crippa da Skippa was bridesmaid in all the awards and was "only" vice captain of the AA team
You've gotta laugh at how they bag McRae for giving Daicos 5 "undeserved" votes.
Especially when the rival coach also put Daicos in his top 3 players
Or what about Michael Voss? Do these Blues sooks think he hasn't been equally biased towards Cripps (if not more) throughout the year ? Cripps played one good quarter against the Saints in the last game. He was ordinary in the first half; he lifted in the 3rd quarter and won a load of clearances (but with his typically sloppy ball usage). But then his last quarter was less than stellar - he wasn't really a factor. He gave away some crucial free kicks.
^^ But none of this stopped the President of the Paddy Cripps fan club, Michael Voss from giving Cripps his 5 votes
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- Mar 25, 2019
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The game Daicos was gifted 5 by McRae he was awarded 0 by the other coach - Voss. Nicky went at 54% for the game with 8 clangers.The collective late-season sooking by Blues fans has been one of the highlights of the year
- Giving up on their own team after the Hawks spanked them
- Jamming the talkback lines for the next 3,4,5 days with their moaning and whining
- Throwing a bottle at the goal ump (and booing) cos the umpires weren't giving their boys the usual reach-around
- Booing their players off the field after the loss to St Kilda
- Melting down cos Crippa da Skippa was bridesmaid in all the awards and was "only" vice captain of the AA team
You've gotta laugh at how they bag McRae for giving Daicos 5 "undeserved" votes.
Especially when the rival coach also put Daicos in his top 3 players
Or what about Michael Voss? Do these Blues sooks think he hasn't been equally biased towards Cripps (if not more) throughout the year ? Cripps played one good quarter against the Saints in the last game. He was ordinary in the first half; he lifted in the 3rd quarter and won a load of clearances (but with his typically sloppy ball usage). But then his last quarter was less than stellar - he wasn't really a factor. He gave away some crucial free kicks.
^^ But none of this stopped the President of the Paddy Cripps fan club, Michael Voss from giving Cripps his 5 votes
And re Cripps. Had 12 touches at 75% including 5 clearances in the 3rd while being tagged. Ridiculously bad take.
When a player wins the award by 4 votes and his coach is giving out 5 voters for performances like that the awards integrity has to be questioned.
Another against the Don's went at 42% for the game (in a loss) and one of the coaches bizarrely awards him 2 votes.
This is why the Brownlow and MvP will always be held in higher regard to me
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- Mar 2, 2015
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5 votes for one good quarter out of four... in a game they lost...
Yeah, that aint biased...
I couldn't have said it better myself.The collective late-season sooking by Blues fans has been one of the highlights of the year
- Giving up on their own team after the Hawks spanked them
- Jamming the talkback lines for the next 3,4,5 days with their moaning and whining
- Throwing a bottle at the goal ump (and booing) cos the umpires weren't giving their boys the usual reach-around
- Booing their players off the field after the loss to St Kilda
- Melting down cos Crippa da Skippa was bridesmaid in all the awards and was "only" vice captain of the AA team
You've gotta laugh at how they bag McRae for giving Daicos 5 "undeserved" votes.
Especially when the rival coach also put Daicos in his top 3 players
Or what about Michael Voss? Do these Blues sooks think he hasn't been equally biased towards Cripps (if not more) throughout the year ? Cripps played one good quarter against the Saints in the last game. He was ordinary in the first half; he lifted in the 3rd quarter and won a load of clearances (but with his typically sloppy ball usage). But then his last quarter was less than stellar - he wasn't really a factor. He gave away some crucial free kicks.
^^ But none of this stopped the President of the Paddy Cripps fan club, Michael Voss from giving Cripps his 5 votes
A poster in the Daicos thread provided the data that proved there was a higher potential discrepancy between the votes awarded to Cripps by Voss compared to the votes awarded to Daicos by McRae.
The response? Crickets.
And that's before we mention:
- Cripps 5 votes from Voss (reasonable) whilst Daicos gets none (hmmmm);
- Heeney 5 votes from McRae in the second Sydney game v. Collingwood (could have easily reduced that to 4, and given Warner the 5) and none to Daicos (could have easily given him 1 or 2) to allow Heeney to overtake Daicos with two rounds to go.
Next we'll hear McRae was the reason Heeney sat out the round 24 game, to allow Daicos to overtake him...
- Mar 2, 2015
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Hopefully Santa brings a new set of Paddy Cripps pillow cases and doona for the Blues fans this Christmas, so they can replace the tear-stained Paddy Cripps 2024 bedding.
- Mar 25, 2019
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I'm sure Crippa will sleep easy with another Brownlow in a few weeks
- Mar 2, 2015
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Ah, yes.. the Brownlow...
The most important and prestigious award in football.
It's what they all play for.
McRae did this only a few weeks ago. He gave Nick Daicos 5 votes (Voss gave him none) in the Blues v Pies game in Round 21.
Daicos had 28 ineffective disposals, one goal, less clearances than Pendlebury, 50% disposal efficiency.
A pretty selfish decision by McRae and the votes that ended up winning him the award.
Macrea also knows his role and how much he's getting attention that Pendles no longer receives.
Macrea may of rated his game higher on different metrics then us plebs.
I will say I think Pendles was our best but Nick still there about in top 3 to 5 pies.
