Leyonhjelm and Day create small-government voting bloc. Want lower minimum wage.

[medusala]

Yet, there is no evidence countries with lower or no minimum wages outperform others in terms of employment figures.

WTF? See Europe. There is a heap of evidence. If a min wage doesn't hurt employment, lets just raise it by 50% then. May as well.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timwors...age-is-too-high-youth-unemployment-proves-it/

They have been handed a golden opportunity, use CBA's malfeasance as a chance to reform the industry and the chokepoint they are placing on capital as an excuse to open the industry to greater competition.

Reform? We just need regulators to carry out their jobs well for a change. Australia has 4 big banks. For a country of our size that is very competitive. Whilst I agree the last few mergers shouldn't have been allowed, you wont get much more competition than that. Big os banks don't have much interest.

Its nothing like the UK and US, where the finance industry has real clout.

 

[Hill2Pav]

There is no equivalent study of Australian data. Until there is such a study, and it shows otherwise, I am more inclined to believe the results that do exist elsewhere generalise to Australia. I don't see a reason to start with the assumption that they must be different.

There have been a multitude of studies into the Australian minimum wage and the employment affects.

But the real issue here isn't the minimum wage, it is actually real unit labour costs for employers.

 

[DivideandMultiply]

WTF? See Europe. There is a heap of evidence. If a min wage doesn't hurt employment, lets just raise it by 50% then. May as well.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timwors...age-is-too-high-youth-unemployment-proves-it/

Lol Worstol, now it's my turn to attack the messenger. He and that other bloke Dorn who write for Forbes are hacks of the highest order.

If see Europe was valid, why do some of the worst employment figures mirror countries with the worst wage conditions.

Likewise why were states in the US, with higher minimum wages some of the fastest to recover from the GFC.

The minimum wage myth needs to be chucked on the scrap heap, with trickle down economics as one of the more absurd and harmful cons of the 20th century.

 

[medusala]

Lol Worstol, now it's my turn to attack the messenger. He and that other bloke who write for Forbes are hacks of the highest order..

Worstall is ok. There is huge consensus on the topic. Even the French have admitted they need to change employment laws..

.

If see Europe was valid, why do some of the worst employment figures mirror countries with the worst wage conditions..

Correlation isn't causation. In any event ask yourself this - why are countries with far more flexible labour markets typically so much richer with higher wages?

.

Likewise why were states in the US, with higher minimum wages some of the fastest to recover from the GFC...

because they benefitted the most from QE. Again correlation isn't causation.

.

The minimum wage myth needs to be chucked on the scrap heap, with trickle down economics as one of the more absurd and harmful cons of the 20th century.

It is hardly a myth. Anyone who has ever run a business will tell you that. It doesn't take a genius to work out that if labour costs more than all else being equal demand for it will fall.

Again, if there are no harmful effects, lets increase the min wage by 50%.

In fact why don't we increase all wages by 50%?

 

[DivideandMultiply]

It is hardly a myth. Anyone who has ever run a business will tell you that. It doesn't take a genius to work out that if labour costs more than all else being equal demand for it will fall.

Again, if there are no harmful effects, lets increase the min wage by 50%.

In fact why don't we increase all wages by 50%?

I know plenty of business owners or management types, and my experience is all will complain about wages, heck even Chinese employers would complain about wages, however I am yet to see any evidence a decline in wage costs leads to higher levels of employment. Those savings will be passed onto the business, or used as justification for executive/upper management wage increases or higher bonuses.

In fact, highly profitable businesses still pursue staff cuts as a policy to increase efficiency, often followed by executive pay rises.

 

[medusala]

I know plenty of business owners or management types, and my experience is all will complain about wages, heck even Chinese employers would complain about wages, however I am yet to see any evidence a decline in wage costs leads to higher levels of employment.

http://press.anu.edu.au/agenda/015/02/mobile_devices/ch07s04.html

One of the major factors in the fall in the unemployment rate since the mid 1980s is the fall in real unit labour costs (RULC) over the same period

There is considerable empirical research on the labour market in Australia and the effect of rises in average wages on employment (see, for instance, Lewis and Seltzer 1996; Bernie and Downes 1999; Lewis and MacDonald 2002). This research indicates that a 10 per cent increase in average wages reduces employment by about 8 per cent

 

[DivideandMultiply]

http://press.anu.edu.au/agenda/015/02/mobile_devices/ch07s04.html

One of the major factors in the fall in the unemployment rate since the mid 1980s is the fall in real unit labour costs (RULC) over the same period

There is considerable empirical research on the labour market in Australia and the effect of rises in average wages on employment (see, for instance, Lewis and Seltzer 1996; Bernie and Downes 1999; Lewis and MacDonald 2002). This research indicates that a 10 per cent increase in average wages reduces employment by about 8 per cent

The RULC is not the minimum wage and is dependant on a number of factors, the relationship between real wage costs and employment figures has nothing to do with arguments over minimum wage cutting or abolition. In fact to bring it up is highly disingenuous.

It is tempting to use the above analysis to argue the effects of imposing a minimum wage for the lower paid. However, the above analysis needs to be adjusted for the analysis of minimum wages. Since most workers would obtain a wage higher than the minimum anyway, the effect of imposing a minimum wage is to increase the wages only of those who would otherwise receive the lowest wages. The effect on the average wage is small and, thus, the impact on total employment and unemployment is also small. The international empirical evidence confirms that the impacts of minimum wages on total employment and unemployment are small (Brown, Gilroy and Kronen 1982; Neumark et al. 2000).

I strongly disagree with the conclusions drawn on the truncation effect and the numbers do not support a case for significant disproportional effect on lower skilled workers.

However, removal of the minimum wage usually corresponds to depressed wages, outside of the lowest skilled demographics with little evidence of corresponding increases in employment figures.

 

[medusala]

The RULC is not the minimum wage and is dependant on a number of factors, the relationship between real wage costs and employment figures has nothing to do with arguments over minimum wage cutting or abolition. In fact to bring it up is highly disingenuous.

Of course its related. How can a rise in the minimum wage have nothing to do with real wage levels?

"In summary, the impact of the minimum wage on total employment may be proportionately small but the impact on low-skilled, low-paid workers is disproportionately high"

"Minimum wages are all about distribution. Jobs and income are redistributed away from the worst off."

Don't you hate inequality? A high minimum wage screws the most unfortunate ie low skilled unemployed

Why kick them in the face?

 

[DivideandMultiply]

Of course its related. How can a rise in the minimum wage have nothing to do with real wage levels?

"In summary, the impact of the minimum wage on total employment may be proportionately small but the impact on low-skilled, low-paid workers is disproportionately high"

"Minimum wages are all about distribution. Jobs and income are redistributed away from the worst off."

Don't you hate inequality? A high minimum wage screws the most unfortunate ie low skilled unemployed

Why kick them in the face?

See my edited post above.

You originally misrepresent your own quoted article, the conclusions of the author are that employment figures are largely unaffected by a minimum wage.

I also disagree with the highlighted conclusion. Wealth distribution is actually greater in OECD countries with higher minimum wages, or higher enforced minimums agreed to via collective bargaining, amongst lower skilled workers in a high proportion of examples.

The Scandinavian countries have union enforced not state backed minimums, that are amongst the highest in the world. Similar to them are Australia, Belgium, France, Luxembourg and the Netherlands with very high state backed minimum wages.

Now Australia is the odd one out when it comes to low gini coefficients, which is likely due to Howard era tax cuts and a general neo liberal lite economic policy, leading to an aggressive concentration of wealth at the top end, much like the US, however when looking at OECD countries, most of the lowest Gini coefficients after transfers and taxes belong to countries with either high state mandated minimum wages or high minimums set by collective bargaining (you hate those pesky unions).

 

[medusala]

You originally misrepresent your own quoted article. I .

That simply isn't correct. Min wage is clearly a part of real wage levels even if it only affects a small % of the population.

What you don't seem to be able to grasp is that the unions are extremely harmful to the unemployed. Their members profit at the expense of others.

Why are you so keen on a system whereby the well off profit at the expense of the less well off?

How can you allege to be concerned re inequality and yet completely indifferent to the plight of the unemployed?

 

[Ripper]

That simply isn't correct. Min wage is clearly a part of real wage levels even if it only affects a small % of the population.

What you don't seem to be able to grasp is that the unions are extremely harmful to the unemployed. Their members profit at the expense of others.

Why are you so keen on a system whereby the well off profit at the expense of the less well off?

How can you allege to be concerned re inequality and yet completely indifferent to the plight of the unemployed?

Because he is a leftie?

 

[DivideandMultiply]

That simply isn't correct. Min wage is clearly a part of real wage levels even if it only affects a small % of the population.

What you don't seem to be able to grasp is that the unions are extremely harmful to the unemployed. Their members profit at the expense of others.

Why are you so keen on a system whereby the well off profit at the expense of the less well off?

How can you allege to be concerned re inequality and yet completely indifferent to the plight of the unemployed?

Not at all, you are simply misrepresenting the situation.

Some of the most unionized workforces in the world are those in the Scandinavian countries. They also have some of the highest bottom end wages, which are reached via collective bargaining agreement (not state mandated).

In general they represent the lowest grouping of Gini coefficient scores, post tax and redistributions in the OECD. This means a better distribution of wealth, and more equal outcomes at the low end.

 

[DivideandMultiply]

Because he is a leftie?

Not a leftie, not particularly pro union, I simply look at the numbers.

Trust you to reduce the level of the conversation to dumb.

 

[Ripper]

Not a leftie, not particularly pro union, I simply look at the numbers.

Trust you to reduce the level of the conversation to dumb.

Now who is in denial?

 

[DivideandMultiply]

Now who is in denial?

You, is my guess?

I am fine with lower union representation in Australia, as long as we can achieve similar outcomes. Our economy would be far more healthy, if we actually tackled middle class welfare and the property bubble.

Union and political corruption are long term problems, but the above have readily available fixes.

 

[Ripper]

You, is my guess?

I am fine with lower union representation in Australia, as long as we can achieve similar outcomes.

Ever run you own show and employed people?

 

[DivideandMultiply]

Ever run you own show and employed people?

My family has.

Not a shop, but at one stage a highly profitable business. Both my father and grandfather were employers. Wages were never one of the key problems, however overheads in electricity costs and rental for office space do represent a significant challenge to small businesses.

The major issue though, would be access to capital. In fact it is probably the biggest issue for home grown businesses which aren't highly liquid, in Australia at the moment.

Forget wages, it is the reallocation of capital by banks away from business lending, to the home loan market which is the biggest challenge for businesses of nearly all sizes. Hence why so many big names, especially in agriculture and even increasingly in resources have been forced to either chase foreign capital, merge or face oversees buyouts.

 

[Ripper]

My family has.

Not a shop, but at one stage a highly profitable business. Both my father and grandfather were employers. Wages were never one of the key problems, however overheads in electricity costs and rental for office space do represent a significant challenge to small businesses.

The major issue though, would be access to capital. In fact it is probably the biggest issue for home grown businesses which aren't highly liquid, in Australia at the moment.

Forget wages, it is the reallocation of capital by banks away from business lending, to the home loan market which is the biggest challenge for businesses of nearly all sizes. Hence why so many big names, especially in agriculture and even increasingly in resources have been forced to either chase foreign capital, merge or face oversees buyouts.

That is nothing new, During the recession we bought a new building @ 18% interest rate. Within 3 months it had ballooned to 23%.

Money is comparatively cheap today for business compared to then. I do agree that too much is going into housing on the new reserves.

Work for yourself , there is no minimum wage, no work no money.

 

[DivideandMultiply]

That is nothing new, During the recession we bought a new building @ 18% interest rate. Within 3 months it had ballooned to 23%.

Money is comparatively cheap today for business compared to then. I do agree that too much is going into housing on the new reserves.

Work for yourself , there is no minimum wage, no work no money.

My industry doesn't allow you to work for yourself, at least unless you are in an incredibly small minority. It is an industry with low union representation, unless you take a certain pathway and contains some of the smartest and hardest working people in the country. Yet hospitality workers and teachers have better working conditions, for different reasons.

It is requires dedication and motivation for the work. Fiscal rewards are med/low compared to risk, cost of education and working hours, except for a small percentage of private industry.

Also, the current situation re access to capital is new (post 07 it has gotten dramatically worse), and a huge problem. Our economies biggest current problem.

 

[Ripper]

My industry doesn't allow you to work for yourself, at least unless you are in an incredibly small minority. It is an industry with low union representation, unless you take a certain pathway and contains some of the smartest and hardest working people in the country. Yet hospitality workers and teachers have better working conditions, for different reasons.

It is requires dedication and motivation for the work. Fiscal rewards are med/low compared to risk, cost of education and working hours, except for a small percentage of private industry.

Also, the current situation re access to capital is new (post 07 it has gotten dramatically worse), and a huge problem. Our economies biggest current problem.

What do you do? I would guess IT, that I also do in my spare time.

 

[DivideandMultiply]

What do you do? I would guess IT, that I also do in my spare time.

Not IT.

Was originally an Econ/Poli Sci major, but decided to retrain. Undertook an Eng/Sci double but decided to go in the direction of the sciences. My field requires that I continue my education for a number more years, as undergrad then the full range of post grad to post doc research is often required to be competitive at an international level.

Ultimately, you sometimes make a choice between higher short term pay scales and work/education you prefer because you believe the latter may lead to a higher chance of success.

 

[Ripper]

Not IT.

Was originally an Econ/Poli Sci major, but decided to retrain. Undertook an Eng/Sci double but decided to go in the direction of the sciences. My field requires that I continue my education for a number more years, as undergrad then the full range of post grad to post doc research is often required to be competitive at an international level.

Ultimately, you sometimes make a choice between higher short term pay scales and work/education you prefer because you believe the latter may lead to a higher chance of success.

How come you are so ignorant of the temperature record then? You must have the skills to work out that it has been severely manipulated.

Or have you been too lazy to check for yourself.

"nullus in Verbia"

 

[DivideandMultiply]

How come you are so ignorant of the temperature record then? You must have the skills to work out that it has been severely manipulated.

Or have you been too lazy to check for yourself.

"nullus in Verbia"

This discussion has nothing to do with the current one.

Given our last attempt at discourse on scientific issues was a disaster, you being unwilling or unable to understand the science behind ocean acidification or how the oceanic carbon cycle and Ca2+/HCO3- and CO3 2- acquisition effect shell formation/disolution, likewise the disastrous effect a worsening situation would have on marine ecosystems and the wider food web, I am loathe to get sciency with you.

Your position is one of conspiracy theory, ideology and pre-determination, facts rarely penetrate rhetoric unless one is willing to learn, which you seem not very keen to do.

 

[Hill2Pav]

Now who is in denial?

An Egyptian?

 

[Hill2Pav]

Of course its related. How can a rise in the minimum wage have nothing to do with real wage levels?

"In summary, the impact of the minimum wage on total employment may be proportionately small but the impact on low-skilled, low-paid workers is disproportionately high"

"Minimum wages are all about distribution. Jobs and income are redistributed away from the worst off."

Don't you hate inequality? A high minimum wage screws the most unfortunate ie low skilled unemployed

Why kick them in the face?

Because they don't vote for the LNP so Joe Hockey doesn't care?

And good to see you changed from just talking about the minimum wage to the real unit labour costs (RULC) after I mentioned that it is a better indicator to use.