Liam Jurrah being held by police -Sen

[BlueBanger]

IM Aboriginal and Ive had similar experiences with Aboriginal people. And non Aboriginal people for that matter, but let me ask all the people who are so excited this has happened as it finally gives them the "chance" to espouse their pent up rage and hate...

The life these Aboriginal people lead. Being drunk, broke, homeless, on drugs. Being anti social, living in squalor... Is this a life you would choose? Does it seem enticing? Do you think any of them are truly or even remotely happy?

The answer of course is no. So here is my next question.

Why do you think they live that way. Go look at the real history of Australia. Not just the Genocide that happened 200 years ago. Not just the Stolen Generation that happened 30 years ago. Go look at the Close the Gap stats. The education stats. Go look at the hugely disproportionate number of indigenous kids and adults in prisons around Australia. Ask yourself why our first Australians are dying, living in squalor, in misery, and hopelessness. And finally. let me ask you this.

Are you a man/woman who thinks that all you are required to do in life is to build your own nest and care only for your immediate needs and comfort, or do you want to actually live for more, and be someone who builds and repairs this country you obviously so passionately love. If the answer is that latter, then instead of waiting for opportunities to judge and hate Aboriginal people, how about you look into the reasons for the negative experiences you've had, and look for a way YOU can be a part of the solution, so that in 25 years, your kids dont have the same dramas.

Look into World Vision. Their Linking Hands programs is involved in Aboriginal communities and making a massive difference in education and health. And honestly, Education is the key here. We need to get the stat of 3.5% of all Aboriginal people finishing high school up to the 70% of the broader population stat...

Bottom line is you can choose to hate and be negative, or you can educate yourself on the reasons we have such a huge problem (a problem you are telling everyone has affected you personally) and once you've learned about the history and causes, then you can set about being a solution and in turn a history maker. Your choice my man.

B+

 

[TAITA]

I notice you blame the Government but not the parents who let their kids down by encouraging them to get a good education.

Doesn't matter what colour or background you're from. If you don't encourage and support your children in their education you're a shit parent.

Whoa!

You have just reset the bar for ignorance.

Well done you.

 

[KingNothing]

http://www.smh.com.au/afl/afl-news/...ng-turns-into-a-nightmare-20120309-1uprq.html

This article is suggesting that one of the reasons for the 2010 stabbing death that is linked to this tribal feud is:

“...an older player, a stalwart of the side, retired and his guernsey was passed on to a newcomer. Great significance is attached to players' guernseys. When the newcomer to the Yuendumu team fell ill with cancer and died, the belief grew that the player who had formerly worn his guernsey was responsible for his death”.

Is this actual true?

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

Whoa!

You have just reset the bar for ignorance.

Well done you.

No but really.

You're an apologist who lays the blame only at the feet of one group.

Do tell us oh sage...

Why should the Government be held to blame yet the parents not held equally accountable?

 

[R00StaR]

Im still struggling to get over the Romans taking over England and that Alexander the great character has a lot to answer for. Wheres my damn compo Alex you pig? I blame him for how we turned out, its not our fault.

Be thankful your not shipped off to an outback prison country for a minor crime like one of my ancestors - 1st fleet.

 

[TAITA]

No but really.

You're an apologist who lays the blame only at the feet of one group.

Do tell us oh sage...

Why should the Government be held to blame yet the parents not held equally accountable?

The parents do a better job at parenting and educating their children than you or I ever do or could - they know their history and they know their beliefs.

Unfortunately Central Australia isn't just around the corner from Melbourne Grammar.

However, your premise is not only full of falsehoods, but is completely idiotic.

Sage.....

 

[Furn]

http://www.smh.com.au/afl/afl-news/...ng-turns-into-a-nightmare-20120309-1uprq.html

This article is suggesting that one of the reasons for the 2010 stabbing death that is linked to this tribal feud is:

“...an older player, a stalwart of the side, retired and his guernsey was passed on to a newcomer. Great significance is attached to players' guernseys. When the newcomer to the Yuendumu team fell ill with cancer and died, the belief grew that the player who had formerly worn his guernsey was responsible for his death”.

Is this actual true?

No, cancer is a result of mutations in the pathways that regulate growth and protein production in a cell. It has nothing to do with who formerly wore your footy jumper.

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

The parents do a better job at parenting and educating their children than you or I ever do or could - they know their history and they know their beliefs.

Erhm ok then

You can teach your kids family history and still send them to school you know...

And if you think that teaching them history/beliefs is enough to set them up for life then no they can't parent better than me.

My kids know all about their Irish heritage. ****ed if I'm placing that before things like Maths, English and Science though.

Any parent worth shit will nurture and encourage their child's education until the kid finds their own vocation in life whatever that may be.

Unfortunately Central Australia isn't just around the corner from Melbourne Grammar.

Irrelevant.

Don't demean the teachers and kids who work hard to get good grades in those remoter areas.

They do exist you know.

Plenty of Aboriginal families have moved closer to schools so the kids aren't having to travel as far.

However, your premise is not only full of falsehoods, but is completely idiotic.

Sage.....

The saddest thing is its people like you who culture this mindset that manifests itself in the moronic left wing brigade that portion none of the blame at the individuals themselves.

Imagine being such a cretin that someone would blame a government solely for a peoples situation in 2012.

Surely there's no such people out there?

 

[bing181]

Erhm ok then

Any parent worth shit will nurture and encourage their child's education until the kid finds their own vocation in life whatever that may be.

Just to take a single point out of your ill-informed post: life in many of these communities is so precarious that many of the kids do not have parents around to "nurture and encourage" them.

Education? You're kidding. Forget about getting good grades and a vocation. Chris Walker, charged with Liam for the machete attack, is 23 years old and can't even read and write.

Read Martin Flanagan's articles in that pinko rag, The Age.

 

[BeinPurplenGreen]

I hope he is innocent but if he is guilty i hope they lock him up for a very longtime.I couldn't give the slightest %%#% about what race the person is someone was seriously injured due to people acting like cowards and having to use weapons they need to be sent away for as long as possible so it does not happen to anyone else.

Race and tribal crap shouldn't come into the discussion at all. If someone from Sierra Leon chopped up a AFL player people would be calling for blood not discussing how they grew up in a war torn country where murders rapes and people having limbs chopped off was the norm and why this act in some sense was understandable and how we don't understand their ways.

"chopped up"???

Oh goodness me. Please, before you accuse Liam of specific acts - couldn't you at least check the facts???

If I applied the same logic you have just used in your "enlightened" post, Didak would be guilty of the shooting of the solicitor, the Dutch fellow and the girl - because he happened to be in the company of someone who later committed a specific crime. Please, can't you at least check your facts???

I feel sorriest for the Aboriginal families who follow just the one law, the same law we all follow.

They go to work and work hard. Kids get up every day and head off to school. They have a diverse group of friends from all different backgrounds because that's how most Australians live these days.

I often wonder if they share this "supposed" brotherhood with fellow Aboriginals who seem to do no favours to their cause through their actions. Or do they think more along the lines of grow the hell up you clowns and sort your shit out.

There is no "we", clown.

Guaranteed, you don't work hard.

Guaranteed, you don't declare all your income for full taxation.

Guaranteed, you drink too much some days, and make bad decisions on other days.

Guaranteed, when you do any or all of these things, and fall a little short of the ultra perfect standard of pure perfection that you demand of indigenous Australians, any mistakes you do make can glibly be explained away as the fault of your boss/parents/kids/spouse. And, when those excuses run out, you no doubt blame the indigenous kids or the immigrants down the road from your joint.

Truly, you are an insult to the Carlton football club and its long standing , highly decorated history with indigenous Australians.

http://www.smh.com.au/afl/afl-news/...ng-turns-into-a-nightmare-20120309-1uprq.html

This article is suggesting that one of the reasons for the 2010 stabbing death that is linked to this tribal feud is:

“...an older player, a stalwart of the side, retired and his guernsey was passed on to a newcomer. Great significance is attached to players' guernseys. When the newcomer to the Yuendumu team fell ill with cancer and died, the belief grew that the player who had formerly worn his guernsey was responsible for his death”.

Is this actual true?

Without commenting on the specifics of this particular case, and (to be very clear) without wishing to encompass every skin grouping, language cluster or geographic RAP, I can say from personal experience that any death (whether via violent or natural causes) in traditional communities does have a tendency to lead to a belief (very widely held in communities outside the main cities) that any items precious to the deceased person are immediately and directly linked spiritually to the deceased, and carry a highly negative connection to the event of the passing of the deceased person. Here's the important bit:

• where the item is something that only ever belonged to the deceased, the item is (generally) something to be revered and highly respected, often used as a talisman or semi-religious item - much as a Western religion regards a significant relic or totem; BUT
• where the item has been passed between individuals, such as a hunting spear, grinding stone, car, fishing line or footy jumper - the fact of the association with death is sometimes (not always, but often, especially in communities where multiple skin groups are closely intertwined) seen as "contamination" or "accountability" - that is, if you drive a car, then gift it to some one, who then contracts cancer or has a run of "bad luck", you (as the originator of the car) are seen as responsible.

The account I've just given is of necessity (for space reasons) a summary, and I want to stress that it is only in certain areas - but this deeply spiritual sense of "accountability" and attachment of outcomes to specific items of clothing, furniture and belongings is very deeply ingrained in many culture groups within Indigenous Australia.

To put it in perspective, the act of awarding a top layer's guernsey to the next generation is endowed with much deeper reverence than usual squad shirt nights, because it is generally acknowledged in the group that the spirit of the forebears is bound up in the shirt/number/footy boots of the player. This works well when everything goes well, but if the new player/captain gets sick, or has lots of injuries, it can be (and often is) seen as a "fault" of the former holder of the jumper/footy/car/shoes. Not fair under our Western system, but very fair and defensible under the much older and more established indigenous system...

Neither is "right" - I'd just be bloody grateful if we could all take a moment or two to try to be accommodating of the other belief systems in play, instead of posting some of the rubbish views that show the worst, one eyed, highly racist views that old school "white Australia" policies set in train.

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

Just to take a single point out of your ill-informed post: life in many of these communities is so precarious that many of the kids do not have parents around to "nurture and encourage" them.

Ill informed?

We're talking about parental responsibility though.

Or do you disagree to that the parents should get a free pass on having to be responsible ones?

Ill informed is when you blame the government for all their problems.

Education? You're kidding. Forget about getting good grades and a vocation. Chris Walker, charged with Liam for the machete attack, is 23 years old and can't even read and write.

Is that because he's aboriginal? **** no.

There's plenty of highly intelligent and well educated young aboriginals out there.

Your rubbish attitude demeans their hard work and achievements because you skoff at the thought there's no education out there for them which is utter crap.

So tell me, are you blaming society and the Government solely for Chris Walker's situation?

Read Martin Flanagan's articles in that pinko rag, The Age.

Why would I read a shit paper like that?

I actually prefer watching Living Black.

Often see great stories on young Aboriginals in remote communities achieving high grades and heading off to uni then returning to work in the community.

I don't want to read about excuses, I want to read positive stories about young aboriginals achieving and there are plenty.

 

[Chief]

I feel sorriest for the Aboriginal families who follow just the one law, the same law we all follow.

They go to work and work hard. Kids get up every day and head off to school. They have a diverse group of friends from all different backgrounds because that's how most Australians live these days.

I often wonder if they share this "supposed" brotherhood with fellow Aboriginals who seem to do no favours to their cause through their actions. Or do they think more along the lines of grow the hell up you clowns and sort your shit out.

My God you are just the most sanctimonious, irritating, reductive and simple person I've yet to meet on this site.

Begone.

And no, this is not an invitation to everyone to start cracking it at every troll they find on BigFooty. Try to be better than me.

 

[AndSmithMustScore]

There is no "we", clown.

There is a "we" it's called the Australian public, full of all kinds of people from different backgrounds including Aboriginals.

Guaranteed, you don't work hard.

Guaranteed you'd make **** all money as a psychic

Guaranteed, you don't declare all your income for full taxation.

Given I don't run a black market operation you'd be wrong again.

Guaranteed, you drink too much some days, and make bad decisions on other days.

I'm a non drinker. You're really woeful at this guessing game.

Guaranteed, when you do any or all of these things, and fall a little short of the ultra perfect standard of pure perfection that you demand of indigenous Australians, any mistakes you do make can glibly be explained away as the fault of your boss/parents/kids/spouse. And, when those excuses run out, you no doubt blame the indigenous kids or the immigrants down the road from your joint.

Actually politically I'm a Libertarian. Do you know what that is?

I vote for the LDP, how about you?

I place incredibly high importance on personal responsibility. Any of my actions I take into consideration how they may effect others. If I falter it's my fault and mine alone for placing myself and/or others into that situation.

Why I would blame some innocent aboriginal kid beggars belief. Are you drunk or two bricks short of a load?

You really are the worst fisher ever.

Truly, you are an insult to the Carlton football club and its long standing , highly decorated history with indigenous Australians.

Given you're woeful with the truth that means little.

 

[Ron The Bear]

Truly, you are an insult to the Carlton football club and its long standing , highly decorated history with indigenous Australians.

The history that pushed Doug Nicholls to Fitzroy after a few weeks because the trainers refused to give him a rubdown?

 

[KingNothing]

Without commenting on the specifics of this particular case...

Top post, thanks for the insight man. This isn't something I'm familiar with (hence my asking in the first place), and whilst those sorts of belief systems seem strange to me, I appreciate being taught a bit about them. No harm can come of trying to understand something from someone-else's perspective.

...Neither is "right" - I'd just be bloody grateful if we could all take a moment or two to try to be accommodating of the other belief systems in play...

Many times this

 

[longdaveyjetta]

Top post, thanks for the insight man. This isn't something I'm familiar with (hence my asking in the first place), and whilst those sorts of belief systems seem strange to me, I appreciate being taught a bit about them. No harm can come of trying to understand something from someone-else's perspective.



Many times this

Kudos to you, wish a few more had your ability to have an open mind....

 

[bing181]

Kudos to you, wish a few more had your ability to have an open mind....

Agreed. But looking at some of what's been written here, you wonder if people have minds at all, yet alone open ones.

Ironically, it's the sporting press, so often down in the gutter, who have risen to the occasion with some well-considered pieces on this difficult situation. If there's an acknowledgement that the AFL needs to do more in terms of race relations and tolerance, no better place to start than right here on Bigfooty.

 

[longdaveyjetta]

The history that pushed Doug Nicholls to Fitzroy after a few weeks because the trainers refused to give him a rubdown?

Sir Doug please!!!

shame carlton shame,

 

[Dustin Credible]

Apologies if this has already been discussed, as I am reading the thread on my phone.

There appears to be plenty attempting to contextualise the violence with respect to indigenous law. (irrespective of who committed the act).

There are also those who are quoting the western ideal of "innocent until proven guilty"

I freely admit to knowing little about aboriginal customs or law. As such I have a few questions for those more informed than me.

Firstly, for the Walpiri. Who decides if someone is guilty? I am assuming there is no such thing as trial by jury and that someone or some cabal of elders decides and following this summary justice is meted out?

If so. The logical extension for those who state that this is a part of aboriginal justice is the following.

If the tribe of the victim deem that punishment should be delivered to Liam jurrah. eg having his throat cut and left to bleed out, as has been described earlier in this thread. That they would also accept it as it is part of the 'local customs' ?

Secondly, if "innocent until proven guilty" is not a tenet of aboriginal custom and aboriginal custom is the justification of these actions. Then why should the presumption of innocence be afforded to Liam jurrah?

Personally I find these 'contextualisations' a thinly veiled attempted to normalise truly abhorrent behaviour.

Try as I might I can never regard taking a machete to someone's head as 'normal'.

And to those who wish to blame the British for these problems. Whilst the approach of the past left a lot to be desired, those who simply accept the violence in aboriginal communities as part of the culture, are as culpable for the current problems as any past colonialism.

As it stands some will clearly view me as a racist white Anglo. And as that racist white Anglo I want justice for the victims and believe jurrah to be innocent until proven guilty.

 

[Black Diamond]

You are a little late to this, DC, but I've read many of the pages of this thread and your post seems pretty sober and well considered to me.

The questions you ask are fair enough. I don't support the aboriginal custom, and I think Jurrah should be afforded the presumption of innocence.

 

[Black Diamond]

Will Melbourne be a strong club and sack him as its a disgrace what he did, just tryed taking the law into his own hands, Liam needs to inderstand the world he lives in.

That wasn't really the point of my comment, but FWIW I think it would be a little early for sacking talk.

IIRC, Andrew Krakouer was no longer a Richmond listed player when he was charged, but the club still provided a character reference for him. That was for a rather bad assault, but I think society generally accepts bar fights happen.

Here, I don't think anybody outside these types of indigenous communities would accept an attack with a weapon like this as normal. I'm just glad it isn't my club who will be setting the precedent for others to follow.

 

[bing181]

Try as I might I can never regard taking a machete to someone's head as 'normal'.

I haven't read every single post, but I don't know that anyone writing on these pages has said that it was.

 

[Black Diamond]

I haven't read every single post, but I don't know that anyone writing on these pages has said that it was.

It has certainly been implied by a few that he should be given some slack due to it being normal within indigenous custom.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

My God you are just the most sanctimonious, irritating, reductive and simple person I've yet to meet on this site.

Begone.

And no, this is not an invitation to everyone to start cracking it at every troll they find on BigFooty. Try to be better than me.

It's good to be the King

 

[Dustin Credible]

It has certainly been implied by a few that he should be given some slack due to it being normal within indigenous custom.

This.

Implicit within the arguments made so far is that those with western values are unable to view the violence with in it's proper context. I.e when viewed within it's proper context it becomes acceptable or 'normal'.

It is this assertion that I'm challenging.