Liam Jurrah being held by police -Sen

[King Elvis]

There are a couple of articles in this thread stating Jurrah was struggling a bit under the new setup, as they weren't giving him the same leeway that Bailey did; reading those, and then that, it doesn't seem that outlandish.

Again, it wasn't a criticism of the club or the player; it just highlights the complexity of the situation when you have a player from pretty deep aboriginal culture, trying to fit into a footy club.

 

[Ron The Bear]

The more we hear the worse this story sounds.

I don't feel that way at all. The reporting of facts has been incredibly poor.

I don't think he would remain in hospital due to just having six stitches .

They just interviewed him FFS. The most obvious of questions is "What are your injuries?". Why seek anecdotal medical testimony from his wife, which may or may not be accurate? Could they not have spoken to a doctor?

Emotive bullshit reigns supreme.

 

[something]

We are comfortable with what we know and what we experience. We are uncomfortable with the unknown. Priests and Politicians (in broad brush-strokes) prey upon our fears to deliver them our faith.

Open your mind to the fact that there are countless cultures on the face of our planet, each of them with its own complex belief system. You don't have to philosophically agree with their methods... just understand that there are no absolutes when it comes to "right" and "wrong", and the fact that you have grown up knowing nothing except for the Westminster system of government and jurisprudence has little meaning to billions of people co-existing on this planet let alone in this country.

Liam Jurrah is torn in a way that you could only begin to understand if you left here tomorrow with whatever you could fit into a backpack to live with a native tribe in the heart of Central Australia for an indeterminate period with the understanding that you were doing it for the betterment of yourself AND your people. But that still wouldn't come close...

R u a wizard?

Seriously, A+ post!

 

[Blues_Man]

I don't feel that way at all. The reporting of facts has been incredibly poor.

How do you determin what are actual facts ?

 

[Ron The Bear]

How do you determin what are actual facts ?

Ask pertinent questions, supply quotes (in context), verify independently.

Unfortunately the goal of modern journalism appears to be to prompt opinions (or worse, shape them) rather than to inform.

 

[Admiral Byng]

no one is arguing in favour of sovereignty - it goes against the notion of what a treaty is ie. an agreement between the "old" owners and the "new" owners of the land.

we're getting into hypothetical "PM for a day" stuff here - so i will only say that as a white man living in a city, it's completely irrelevant what i would include in this treaty.

the whole idea is built around consultation. us telling them what a treaty would look like, or indeed indigenous Australians telling the government what a treaty would look like is also against the notion of what a treaty is.

it would probably be built around an agreed system of self determination and customary law; it we repeal the post-Wik legislation that removed/disallowed native title claims on land with pastoral leases granted. it would also do something about these ghetto settlements that "we" moved them into, because "we" apparently know better. (stolen generation is only one element of what "we" did to them)

the reason it's so difficult is that there is no Aboriginal nation - it's a number of different nations. so theoretically you need a number of different treaties with different nations.

the other reason it's so difficult is because Australia is a greedy country. the reason John Howard wouldn't say sorry is because he thought it would open the door to compensation claims. similarly, no government will ever sign a treaty that removes pastoral leases from land holders.

the suggestion that Aboriginal justice is arbitrary is (probably unintentionally) ignorant. what Jurrah is alleged to have done doesn't fall into this category - tribal justice is anything but arbitrary. it's the subject of intense discussion by elders, and negotiation and agreement where a crime has been committed across tribes.

i can certainly think of crimes where a spear to the leg would be more appropriate than the jail cells we offer people that include better gym facilities than i can afford, weekly allowances and foxtel.

i think you'll find that Aboriginal people don't actually want that much. they don't want time rewound 250 years. they don't want their country back. what they want is a recognition of what they lost, and to stop being treated as sub human.

I stand to be corrected, but it was reported a while back, around the time a big group fled the community for Adelaide, that the whole thing started from some bloke dying of natural causes. The community don't accept natural causes and accused someone else of witchcraft or sorcery to cause the death. Sounds a bit arbitrary to me.

 

[Heisenberg_]

I stand to be corrected, but it was reported a while back, around the time a big group fled the community for Adelaide, that the whole thing started from some bloke dying of natural causes. The community don't accept natural causes and accused someone else of witchcraft or sorcery to cause the death. Sounds a bit arbitrary to me.

Article in the paper today reported that is started because an 18 year old died of leukaemia and the elders when trying to work out how it happened was that another person pointed the bone at him.

 

[Ron The Bear]

I stand to be corrected, but it was reported a while back, around the time a big group fled the community for Adelaide, that the whole thing started from some bloke dying of natural causes. The community don't accept natural causes and accused someone else of witchcraft or sorcery to cause the death. Sounds a bit arbitrary to me.

This is one of the issues, but don't expect it to be addressed in the media. Aboriginals insist on retaining these superstitious beliefs/traditions, which the white man's education would help to dispel. Where is the line between interfering/retaining Aboriginal culture, and improving their lot? More generally, what do Aboriginals aspire to?

 

[Admiral Byng]

This is one of the issues, but don't expect it to be addressed in the media. Aboriginals insist on retaining these superstitious beliefs/traditions, which the white man's education would help to dispel. Where is the line between interfering/retaining Aboriginal culture, and improving their lot? More generally, what do Aboriginals aspire to?

That's the dilemma. Everyone is so keen to see the culture preserved, but what if the culture contains elements which are destructive - should those parts be preserved too? How does progressive cultural change happen without destroying the very culture that is being preserved?

It's a sort of Catch22. Not sure if there is an answer.

 

[Catsmaninamerica]

This is one of the issues, but don't expect it to be addressed in the media. Aboriginals insist on retaining these superstitious beliefs/traditions, which the white man's education would help to dispel. Where is the line between interfering/retaining Aboriginal culture, and improving their lot? More generally, what do Aboriginals aspire to?

I have seen with my own eyes the fall out from curses and so forth. And Im a "worldy/non traditional Aboriginal in many ways" - ie I live between Australia and the US as a singer/musician. Completely feel so distanced at times from my culture, yet when I close my eyes and let myself remember back I recall my pop passing down a used pointing bone that had been sun (Killed a lad a long time ago - not pop but the elders who sanctioned it) My cousins stories of first hand encounters with Devil devil man ... frightening stuff.

To you, your narrow and westernized life experience tells you its BS. But to us that have lived it and experienced if FIRST HAND. I can promise you its as real as Geelongs last 3 premierships. So really, here in lies the problem with reconciliation. Too many non Aboriginals instantly think that their way is the right way and the only real way, and anything else is backward and even not real.

I keep saying it, but when all Australians start really opening their ears, eyes and minds and truly attempt to really empathise... Then we will see the gap get closed. Your experience isnt the only experience.

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

Article in the paper today reported that is started because an 18 year old died of leukaemia and the elders when trying to work out how it happened was that another person pointed the bone at him.

I thought it was a member of Jurrah's football team who got stabbed in the leg and bled out?

 

[Baltimore Jack]

This is one of the issues, but don't expect it to be addressed in the media. Aboriginals insist on retaining these superstitious beliefs/traditions, which the white man's education would help to dispel. Where is the line between interfering/retaining Aboriginal culture, and improving their lot? More generally, what do Aboriginals aspire to?

You mean like an all knowing, all forgiving invisible God that waits for all us in Heaven. Is that the type of stuff you're talking about?

 

[Groggyk]

I thought it was a member of Jurrah's football team who got stabbed in the leg and bled out?

This article has the best detail I've seen:


The grand final that year was between Yuendumu and Papunya. The game was scarcely under way when a child ran into the crowd saying he had seen the kadaitcha man. Within minutes, the community was deserted. Everyone - including the teams - had fled.
In traditional Aboriginal society, events which cannot be explained by other means can be attributed to sorcery. This impacted on the Yuendumu football team in the 2000s when an older player, a stalwart of the side, retired and his guernsey was passed on to a newcomer. Great significance is attached to players' guernseys. When the newcomer to the Yuendumu team fell ill with cancer and died, the belief grew that the person responsible for the death was the player who had formerly worn his guernsey.
This dispute, fuelled by alcohol, was the backdrop for the knife fight in the Alice Springs town camp in late 2010 which resulted in the death of one young man and the wounding of two others. All involved, both the three assailants and the three assaulted, were Yuendumu footballers. They were also Liam Jurrah's teammates when the Yuendumu Magpies were premiers and the pride of Yuendumu. They had been teammates all their lives.


Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...n-countries-20120309-1uq1f.html#ixzz1og8iifxL

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

Thanks for that, so the leukemia caused the knife fight.

That's such a sad story; especially because such uncontrollable and natural event caused this mess.

 

[Furn]

You mean like an all knowing, all forgiving invisible God that waits for all us in Heaven. Is that the type of stuff you're talking about?

That's right it's stupid to think that that young mans illness was because of curse put in him. Clearly it was a punishment from god.

 

[Valve Bounce]

Can somebody opine where Jurrah deserves to play in the AFL and Fev doesn't?

 

[Forward Press]

Fev is/was getting on in years, had numerous off-field issues, and didn't put in the defensive effort that the modern AFL coaches ask from every forward.

 

[Higgs Boson]

Can somebody opine where Jurrah deserves to play in the AFL and Fev doesn't?

What sort of moronic post is this? Fev is free to play in the AFL, it's just that no-one drafted him when he nominated.

 

[Monkey King]

Irrespective of the cross cutting issues, it's this simple. Our country affords the right to a presumption of innocence and from the reports I've read, Jurrah has claimed he wasn't involved in the attacks. An accepted version of the truth will be decided upon by the courts later on and you can all gnash your teeth then.

 

[Tas]

Can somebody opine where Jurrah deserves to play in the AFL and Fev doesn't?

If he is guilty of what the papers say then neither do.

If found guilty the AFL should de-register Jurrah for attacking someone with a weapon, I don't care what culture you come from, that is barbaric.

That level of violence and intent to do harm is disgusting.

 

[whelan=legend]

''He's not my cousin any more,'' Basil said. ''That's all I can say.''

Asked who attacked him, Basil claimed Liam had hit him with an ''axe and machete''

....

''We was walking to Little Sister (town camp) and them family run to us with weapons,'' she claimed.

''There was too many, maybe nine of them. They all had weapons and firewood.

''Liam came and hit Basil with a machete and an axe. Liam said 'wait, don't run away, don't be frightened'.

She said her husband had six stitches in his head: ''He's angry for Liam. We're not scared.''

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/mo...-to-never-return/story-fn7x8me2-1226295469875

_______________________________________


Something doesn't make sense. 6 stitches from an axe/ machete attack? Did Liam hit him with the blunt end?

 

[Neese]

Just to take a single point out of your ill-informed post: life in many of these communities is so precarious that many of the kids do not have parents around to "nurture and encourage" them.

Education? You're kidding. Forget about getting good grades and a vocation. Chris Walker, charged with Liam for the machete attack, is 23 years old and can't even read and write.

Read Martin Flanagan's articles in that pinko rag, The Age.

On this note, I remember reading in an interview with Eddie Betts that he couldn't read or write when he came to Carlton and that he is working on it and improving all the time

 

[candiehappy]

I don't know many white people who are involved with tribes who try and kill each other.

never heard of domestic violence?

unaware that most people know their murderer?

what a bigoted moronic comment. It is this sort of attitude that undermines the whole problem in race relations

 

[campbell]

I have seen with my own eyes the fall out from curses and so forth. And Im a "worldy/non traditional Aboriginal in many ways" - ie I live between Australia and the US as a singer/musician. Completely feel so distanced at times from my culture, yet when I close my eyes and let myself remember back I recall my pop passing down a used pointing bone that had been sun (Killed a lad a long time ago - not pop but the elders who sanctioned it) My cousins stories of first hand encounters with Devil devil man ... frightening stuff.

To you, your narrow and westernized life experience tells you its BS. But to us that have lived it and experienced if FIRST HAND. I can promise you its as real as Geelongs last 3 premierships. So really, here in lies the problem with reconciliation. Too many non Aboriginals instantly think that their way is the right way and the only real way, and anything else is backward and even not real.

I keep saying it, but when all Australians start really opening their ears, eyes and minds and truly attempt to really empathise... Then we will see the gap get closed. Your experience isnt the only experience.

imo an excellent post.

 

[candiehappy]

imo an excellent post.

yes, and there are some quality posts, and many to the other extreme.

I don't think that anyone is condoning violenece. But be aware of broader social and cultural issues. Listen and open your eyes. That is the only way that there will ever be an improvement in the aboriginal situation