Lights Out!

[Power Raid]

Yeah screw the earth, I want everything cheap. **** my kids future.

your right

so why do people buy chinese renewables when they now about rare earths and toxic dumping of silicon tetrachloride, hydrofluoric acid and double the CO2 footprint of panels made in the wast. not to mention wy do they buys renewables which use the heavy metal cadmium which is a genotoxin and carcinogen when other alternatives are available. Cadmium is a massive issue especially in places like China where the source of the not governed by controls.

perhaps a sensible discussion will help weed out those in the industry who are in fact not green

 

[Puddy]

Yeah screw the earth, I want everything cheap. **** my kids future.

Lets try to save the enviroment even though we produce very little emissions by crippling ourselves economically with expensive, unreliable power. Thats great for our future

 

[smokingjacket]

your right

so why do people buy chinese renewables when they now about rare earths and toxic dumping of silicon tetrachloride, hydrofluoric acid and double the CO2 footprint of panels made in the wast. not to mention wy do they buys renewables which use the heavy metal cadmium which is a genotoxin and carcinogen when other alternatives are available. Cadmium is a massive issue especially in places like China where the source of the not governed by controls.

perhaps a sensible discussion will help weed out those in the industry who are in fact not green

Actually enforcing quality standards with imports would be another great one. Shit Chinese steel, solar panels with half the efficiency promised etc. you could start a whole new thread.

 

[smokingjacket]

Lets try to save the enviroment even though we produce very little emissions by crippling ourselves economically with expensive, unreliable power. Thats great for our future

We're one of the highest per capita emitters of greenhouse gases in the world and despite a few abortive attempts at reform, that still hasn't changed much. We're way beyond the norms of even other Western countries.

We don't want to cripple our economy but suggesting that slight rises in electricity prices are crippling the Australian economy is absurd. At the end of the day this is a fairly black and white issue. It's not about saving the Gilbert's Potoroo it's about saving human civilisation, human habitats, our standard of living, and our economic structure, all of which are threatened by the implications of climate change.

 

[Gough]

Perhaps we could subsidise renewables at the same level we do the mining industry.

 

[Fire]

Exactly. Well said.

What needs to happen is for the Commonwealth to compel the states to give precedence to the secular over the religious or quasi religious.

Should mandate that every state must ensure its own guaranteed baseload requirements via gas/coal and/or hydro within its own borders before it can receive any funding for renewables.

How was renewable energy responsible for the power going out in SA?

 

[Gough]

If you look really closely at Frydenberg you can see the fossil fuel lobby pulling his strings.

 

[Demosthenes]

We're one of the highest per capita emitters of greenhouse gases in the world and despite a few abortive attempts at reform, that still hasn't changed much. We're way beyond the norms of even other Western countries.

We don't want to cripple our economy but suggesting that slight rises in electricity prices are crippling the Australian economy is absurd. At the end of the day this is a fairly black and white issue. It's not about saving the Gilbert's Potoroo it's about saving human civilisation, human habitats, our standard of living, and our economic structure, all of which are threatened by the implications of climate change.

The problem is that we are getting so close to the point of no return on catastrophic climate change that it's looking increasingly likely that countries WILL have to cripple their economies in order to achieve the needed reductions. The NOAA reckons we'll get there in 2042 at current growth rates, and that date has been coming forward every year.

I'm fatalistic enough to believe that the targets now required are already geopolitically unviable, and as a result it's futile for Australia to do anything of substance unilaterally. Unless that 'doing something' is not having kids.

 

[Gough]

China, Europe, and the US have all ratified the Paris climate agreement. We're hardly acting unilaterally, if anything we're the ones dragging the chain on these issues.

 

[Demosthenes]

The Paris agreement is non-binding and all the parties you've mentioned are expected to miss their targets. It's little more than lip service to the idea of stopping climate change.

The absence of a binding multilateral agreement incorporating the major economic powers means that any real action on emissions is effectively unilateral.

I genuinely don't believe there's the political will to get an effective international agreement in place before it's too late.

 

[GuruJane]

How was renewable energy responsible for the power going out in SA?

If South Australia had its own guaranteed baseload backup instead of relying on Victoria then there wouldn't have been a state wide black out.

Wind energy couldn't be used for restart because it is variable. In fact it is unclear how much wind energy is being used in the system since the restart because they don't know yet what part the wind failure played in triggering the meltdown.

 

[Gough]

Evolution of the conservative argument on climate change. First it's bollocks and just a lefty plot, then there's an admission that it might not be bollocks but it's definitely not man made, now it's too far progressed, and not worth doing anything about. Why do people even listen to you guys? On this issue so far you've been wrong every single time.

 

[Power Raid]

Actually enforcing quality standards with imports would be another great one. Shit Chinese steel, solar panels with half the efficiency promised etc. you could start a whole new thread.

Agree but you can't stop the environmental damage on the products as there are already audits on the mines and production.

The reason why they pass is the illegal operators do not get audited and simply sell to the audited entities. The audited entities can't compete on cost so they simply buy the product rather than operate and as they don't operate, they pass audits with flying colours.

This is how groups like apple, solar panels and wind turbines get around the equator principles.

 

[Demosthenes]

Evolution of the conservative argument on climate change. First it's bollocks and just a lefty plot, then there's an admission that it might not be bollocks but it's definitely not man made, now it's too far progressed, and not worth doing anything about. Why do people even listen to you guys? On this issue so far you've been wrong every single time.

Lot of assumptions about my views there.

I may be pessimistic but I'm not trying to be wilfully obstructive. No matter which side of the political aisle you sit, you don't have to look long at graphs of emissions growth to realise that it's an enormously tall order. And when you look at the global political efforts - from Kyoto to Paris - you really have to shake your head at how toothless and ineffective they've been.

At this point in time, any discussion about climate change has to involve the practicality of stopping it.

 

[Puddy]

South Australia has the highest power prices in the world and has a crippled economy. If renewables were cheap then the public would be happy to have them. Its a shame that alot of people who want to go full tilt into green power dont understand the poverty that it would create

 

[Power Raid]

South Australia has the highest power prices in the world and has a crippled economy. If renewables were cheap then the public would be happy to have them. Its a shame that alot of people who want to go full tilt into green power dont understand the poverty that it would create

it's interesting that nations with wealth are the nations that care about the environment. That's because environmental policies come at a cost and only those with wealth can afford them.

The greens and their supporters, fail to realise that protecting the economy is protecting the environment (of course the right balance). They also fail to see logic as they don't want to discuss or assess policy and technology on their merits. Just like religion, they shut down debate where to conversation starts to test sensitive areas.

Gough's calls "heretic, blasphemy, the devil" when ever someone questions the cost, reliability, safety, performance and the environmental damage of renewables. It is interesting that other technologies are OK to benchmark of these criteria but it is not OK to benchmark renewables. This attests to the emotional attachment some have with renewables.

This ultimately means using logic with the emotional is useless, as they lack willingness and critical thinking. Perhaps keeping the debate to "just because you don't like Collingwood, doesn't mean they're not good" is more appropriate.

 

[Gough]

Gough's calls "heretic, blasphemy, the devil" when ever someone questions the cost, reliability, safety, performance and the environmental damage of renewables. It is interesting that other technologies are OK to benchmark of these criteria but it is not OK to benchmark renewables. This attests to the emotional attachment some have with renewables.

This ultimately means using logic with the emotional is useless, as they lack willingness and critical thinking. Perhaps keeping the debate to "just because you don't like Collingwood, doesn't mean they're not good" is more appropriate.

If you can find one quote where I have said any of those words I'd be mightily impressed. With respect, I'd suggest verballing me is more than a bit emotional, and lacking in critical thinking.

 

[Bradesmaen]

your right

so why do people buy chinese renewables when they now about rare earths and toxic dumping of silicon tetrachloride, hydrofluoric acid and double the CO2 footprint of panels made in the wast. not to mention wy do they buys renewables which use the heavy metal cadmium which is a genotoxin and carcinogen when other alternatives are available. Cadmium is a massive issue especially in places like China where the source of the not governed by controls.

perhaps a sensible discussion will help weed out those in the industry who are in fact not green

Because people are not aware.

 

[Bradesmaen]

South Australia has the highest power prices in the world and has a crippled economy. If renewables were cheap then the public would be happy to have them. Its a shame that alot of people who want to go full tilt into green power dont understand the poverty that it would create

Our slow economy has nothing to do with power prices. They are also not the highest power prices in the world. South Australian power prices (per MWh) was less than QLD last year

 

[Elroo]

If South Australia had its own guaranteed baseload backup instead of relying on Victoria then there wouldn't have been a state wide black out.

You want to unwind 25+ years of economic/political reform and national competion policy to require states like SA to have their own power plants??

 

[Bradesmaen]

If South Australia had its own guaranteed baseload backup instead of relying on Victoria then there wouldn't have been a state wide black out.

Wind energy couldn't be used for restart because it is variable. In fact it is unclear how much wind energy is being used in the system since the restart because they don't know yet what part the wind failure played in triggering the meltdown.

We do have our own baseload back up, it's just that it wasn't running as the wind was producing 70% of our load. Greener for us, Victoria's problem they run brown coal.

Torrens Island Power Station is a gas power plant run by Alinta. Pelican Point is also a gas fired power plant, both are in the City suburban limits.

Knowledge is a powerful thing, you should gain some of it some day.

 

[Lebbo73]

The problem is that we are getting so close to the point of no return on catastrophic climate change that it's looking increasingly likely that countries WILL have to cripple their economies in order to achieve the needed reductions. The NOAA reckons we'll get there in 2042 at current growth rates, and that date has been coming forward every year.

I'm fatalistic enough to believe that the targets now required are already geopolitically unviable, and as a result it's futile for Australia to do anything of substance unilaterally. Unless that 'doing something' is not having kids.

I love a good old-fashioned case of BigFooty climate change scare-mongering.

 

[smokingjacket]

The problem is that we are getting so close to the point of no return on catastrophic climate change that it's looking increasingly likely that countries WILL have to cripple their economies in order to achieve the needed reductions. The NOAA reckons we'll get there in 2042 at current growth rates, and that date has been coming forward every year.

I'm fatalistic enough to believe that the targets now required are already geopolitically unviable, and as a result it's futile for Australia to do anything of substance unilaterally. Unless that 'doing something' is not having kids.

The guys I know say it's already gone. The chance to halt the tide was 2009 and it's gone. They were heavily emotionally invested in Copenhagen though. I hope it's not true but anecdotally I've heard some horror stories.

 

[smokingjacket]

Our slow economy has nothing to do with power prices. They are also not the highest power prices in the world. South Australian power prices (per MWh) was less than QLD last year

And coal and gas fired WA. KEY FACT RIGHT HERE haha.

 

[smokingjacket]

Lot of assumptions about my views there.

I may be pessimistic but I'm not trying to be wilfully obstructive. No matter which side of the political aisle you sit, you don't have to look long at graphs of emissions growth to realise that it's an enormously tall order. And when you look at the global political efforts - from Kyoto to Paris - you really have to shake your head at how toothless and ineffective they've been.

At this point in time, any discussion about climate change has to involve the practicality of stopping it.

One of the largest problems at the moment is the game theory type situation states are playing but constantly trying to seek an advantage by bringing in their targets just a bit later gives their economy a boost and so on.