Lights Out!

[smokingjacket]

Personally I don't care if SA wants to live in the dark ages; that is their choice. As having no power for a few hours doesn't mean much to most other than "something actually happened in SA!".

What we should all be very mindful of is our youth, our poor and most vulnerable in society may want jobs and may want affordable power. Some industries and business, may want cheap reliable power and if they can't get it........they leave. Leading to more pressure, especially in the blue collar sector.

So I would prefer to see a proper review of the power generation sector in SA and understand why it costs so much, what impact that has on the economy, who is impacted the most and energy security. but I do appreciate why you wouldn't want a sensible review and report.

In the 21st century electricity generation has a unique moral element to it that can't be so simply rationalised.

 

[Power Raid]

In the 21st century electricity generation has a unique moral element to it that can't be so simply rationalised.

100% agree that the sector is now more complicated with more considerations but disagree it can't be rationalised.

Considerations still include
- consumer needs
- the economy and industry
- energy security and war
- health
- sustainability
- jurisdiction alternatives etc

We never had a perfect solution for all of these considerations and won't in the future. But we should remove the politics and religion from the equation and have a discussion about the facts.

Talking of moral , the basic element ignored in renewables is the sun and wind are renewable but the infrastructure is not, nor is the back up energy sources required to make renewables possible.

Having an open discussion on the single largest environmental disaster in the history of man is the moral thing to do. This issue won't stop renewables progressing, as it can be mitigated, but we will have a better understanding rather than being mislead by the name renewable.

 

[Gough]

You're not interested in discussion of facts mate, all you're interested in is having a long winded, and prosaic swipe at renewable energy. Stop pretending otherwise.

 

[Power Raid]

True their underlying cost of power is going up but some of the subsidies you're talking about aren't necessarily coming from the taxpayer, it's partly being cost recycled from elements of their carbon price.

Of course it is being paid for by the consumer, tax payer or not.

The German producer of products on costs the tax in a cost plus manner to the consumer. Where it can't due to elasticity, the German producer looks to reduce costs by shifting to a lower cost jurisdiction.

So the people of Germany pay in the form of higher prices, less employment and the world pays as manufacturing shifts to higher polluting jurisdictions.


Don't get me wrong, we are heading in the right direction with technology but the political mechanisms have done more harm than good.

 

[Power Raid]

You're not interested in discussion of facts mate, all you're interested in is having a long winded, and prosaic swipe at renewable energy. Stop pretending otherwise.

why are you so offended by the concept of a review of the sector and the event?

 

[GuruJane]

In the 21st century electricity generation has a unique moral element to it that can't be so simply rationalised.

Exactly. Well said.

What needs to happen is for the Commonwealth to compel the states to give precedence to the secular over the religious or quasi religious.

Should mandate that every state must ensure its own guaranteed baseload requirements via gas/coal and/or hydro within its own borders before it can receive any funding for renewables.

 

[Xsess]

You're not interested in discussion of facts mate, all you're interested in is having a long winded, and prosaic swipe at renewable energy. Stop pretending otherwise.

A bigoted Renewablephobe?

 

[Gough]

A bigoted Renewablephobe?

People who pretend to take one position while consistently arguing the opposite are very tiresome.

 

[Xsess]

South Australia has its power back on now but those 23 transmission towers are still down. Anyone with a brain cell still calling this a transmission failure?

 

[Power Raid]

People who pretend to take one position while consistently arguing the opposite are very tiresome.

I'm sorry you find comments like "renewables have their place" and "we are heading in the right direction with technology"

Perhaps it is not over-zealous enough for you taste

 

[Power Raid]

South Australia has its power back on now but those 23 transmission towers are still down. Anyone with a brain cell still calling this a transmission failure?

you're right but in the blind-faith defence, if the power lines didn't go down then the power may not have had to be shut down. It was the cumulative effect.

three power transmission lines went down and the power was still working. It wasn't until the power generation from wind was shut down that the draw from Victoria was too much to cope. These are the facts.

A review will consider a risk matrix of probability and outcome and it can then be determine whether the infrastructure (transmission and generation) is appropriate. For any other place the answer is probably no but for SA its probably OK.

 

[Xsess]

you're if the power lines didn't go down then the power may not have had to be shut down. ..

Nah the Australia Energy Market Operator has just released a preliminary report that the wind turbines were shut down, immediately followed by the blackout, damage to transmission lines happened after the blackout. In other words when wind power failed in moderate winds (lol) it caused an almost instantaneous draw down of the equivalent of an entire coal fired power station and when that energy surged back into South Australia it tripped the entire state.

 

[Bradesmaen]

As a colleague of mine negotiated the pitch darkness while escaping the carnage her Bangladeshi driver remarked that even in his own country a storm wouldn't shut down an entire state.... lol

• On November 1, Bangladesh suffered nationwide power outage for almost 10 hours.Power was lost all over Bangladesh at around 11:30 AM and restored to most areas by 11:00 pm.[142][143]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_major_power_outages#2010.E2.80.932016

Do you just make shit up for fun?

 

[Bradesmaen]

Nah the Australia Energy Market Operator has just released a preliminary report that the wind turbines were shut down, immediately followed by the blackout, damage to transmission lines happened after the blackout. In other words when wind power failed in moderate winds (lol) it caused an almost instantaneous draw down of the equivalent of an entire coal fired power station and when that energy surged back into South Australia it tripped the entire state.

You are absolutely full of shit. Read the report. The timeline states that the faults in the transmission lines occurred BEFORE the loss of power from the Wind turbines. God, people like you make me want to do a holocaust of idiots. Go back to your hole with all your other conspiracy theory friends that believe the Government is illegal and they can't take your money.

 

[Power Raid]

Nah the Australia Energy Market Operator has just released a preliminary report that the wind turbines were shut down, immediately followed by the blackout, damage to transmission lines happened after the blackout. In other words when wind power failed in moderate winds (lol) it caused an almost instantaneous draw down of the equivalent of an entire coal fired power station and when that energy surged back into South Australia it tripped the entire state.

That's interesting as when I read the interim report I read the 3 transmission lines went down and then the wind power generation went down. when I re-read the report I note they refer to the wind generation immediately after the transmission lines and not the period window around the event.

yet this graph supports your view

 

[rodney hoo]

Do you just make shit up for fun?

Not for fun he just makes shit up.

 

[Xsess]

• On November 1, Bangladesh suffered nationwide power outage for almost 10 hours.Power was lost all over Bangladesh at around 11:30 AM and restored to most areas by 11:00 pm.[142][143]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_major_power_outages#2010.E2.80.932016

Do you just make shit up for fun?

Take it up with the Bangladeshi taxi driver then

 

[GuruJane]

Latest despatch from Loony Tunes:

Tasmania will back a national energy plan and argue it can help provide energy security to other states via its unique blend of base-load hydroelectric power and untapped wind potential.

The Hodgman Liberal government will tell tomorrow’s COAG energy meeting in Melbourne that a second, $1 billion Bass Strait power interconnector would allow Tasmania to significantly expand wind energy.

Australia we are so f*cked.

Energy Minister Matthew Groom will tell his federal and interstate counterparts that this could allow it to export more power, including hydro base-load, to avoid another South Australian-style crisis.

Even more f*cked than you might be imagining.

“Tasmania has a unique combination of resources, and untapped (wind) potential and I think as a nation we should ask ourselves: ‘what role can Tasmania play in that context’?” Mr Groom told local radio today.

'.....If we had a second interconnector then that could tap into additional renewable development opportunities in this state. There’s been as much as 1,000 megawatts of wind development spoken about … and additional hydro capacity.”

Heh heh. This is a Liberal government speaking.

 

[Maggie5]

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...e-states-and-its-entirely-of-turnbulls-making
“energy security” appears to be Frydenberg’s shorthand way of saying that Australia needs to ensure that its infrastructure – poles and wires and baseload supply in our national energy market – is sufficient to withstand major weather events. Sounds benign, doesn’t it?

For example, a second interconnector in South Australia might have kept the lights on in part of the state during last week’s once-in-50-year storm. But at what cost? And who is going to pay for it?


Remember that much of that infrastructure in SA and around the country now sits in private ownership – thank you, Liberal state governments.

Either the Turnbull government stumps up the cash for these private sector companies (yeah, right) or it faces the wrath of voters when their electricity bills jump ever higher to pay for the upgrades the federal government requires.

So much for Tony Abbott’s efforts to save households all that money on their electricity bills by removing the carbon tax.

So glad privatisation works, especially on essential services.

 

[medusala]

There's no doubt it's a poor time in the EU to transition to a new economy but it's much better than standing still. I think they suffer from a lack of ambition rather than enough. Will be interesting to see what shape EU sustainability policy takes post-Brexit.

Budgetary considerations have seen a number of countries row back on renewables. Also Germany is supposedly very concerned re US manufacturing taking advantage of cheap nat gas.

The EU carbon price scheme hasnt exactly worked brilliantly either.

 

[smokingjacket]

Exactly. Well said.

What needs to happen is for the Commonwealth to compel the states to give precedence to the secular over the religious or quasi religious.

Should mandate that every state must ensure its own guaranteed baseload requirements via gas/coal and/or hydro within its own borders before it can receive any funding for renewables.

The current goals, which are a bit of a mishmash ideologically, are to create a diversified network with enough different inputs to naturally flatten out supply. It works in densely populated areas under suprastate/state control like the EU and the US, it has challenges in Australia.

There will always be some form of baseload for industry, even if its advanced solar down the track. Some of these State Governments have got to decide if they're serious about the East Coast grid being as fluid as promised. In a privatised system, it shouldn't matter who has the baseload.

 

[smokingjacket]

Of course it is being paid for by the consumer, tax payer or not.

The German producer of products on costs the tax in a cost plus manner to the consumer. Where it can't due to elasticity, the German producer looks to reduce costs by shifting to a lower cost jurisdiction.

So the people of Germany pay in the form of higher prices, less employment and the world pays as manufacturing shifts to higher polluting jurisdictions.


Don't get me wrong, we are heading in the right direction with technology but the political mechanisms have done more harm than good.

Agree, but there's no way around it. If you're serious about tackling the issue, you need to take the hit and hope you get some kind of first mover advantage down the track.

Plus there's no way of getting around it. It's the West that needs to cut its emissions not Mali or the Philippines. Its beholden upon the West to come up with the solutions.

I agree with you on manufacturing policy though. An incentivized eco-tariff scheme or something along those lines would have been appropriate but a decade ago there was nothing that free trade couldn't solve.

 

[Power Raid]

Agree, but there's no way around it. If you're serious about tackling the issue, you need to take the hit and hope you get some kind of first mover advantage down the track.

Plus there's no way of getting around it. It's the West that needs to cut its emissions not Mali or the Philippines. Its beholden upon the West to come up with the solutions. The other issue with Germany is they have environmental standards.......china doesn't. which means china can produce cheap panels and create a massive environmental disaster.....the exact opposite of the goal of renewables.

I agree with you on manufacturing policy though. An incentivized eco-tariff scheme or something along those lines would have been appropriate but a decade ago there was nothing that free trade couldn't solve.

in the case of solar panels, germany did have a first mover advantage but that was never sustainable as they don't control the rare earths industry which is controlled by "illegal" miners in china.

the one big failure in the world's approach was allowing politics into the picture. if politics wasn't involved a far simpler system rather than a big dumb one size fits all tax would have been implemented..............and yes as you suggest a global approach lead by the west is needed. but they may in fact mean building infrastructure in the world's most polluting areas rather than in our own backyard.........but that wouldn't be politically popular.

 

[Puddy]

Renewables must be cheap or its a no go

 

[Bradesmaen]

Renewables must be cheap or its a no go

Yeah screw the earth, I want everything cheap. **** my kids future.