List Mgmt. List Management Discussion for 2021

[Easy Slips Catch]

Like Jai?

 

[Brishawk]

The midfield rotations are certainly going to improve with some of those players in the mix. In terms of the inside engine room though - Mitchell/O'Meara/Worpel and Shiels are one too many. We need to get young quality midfielders into the club and we need assets to do that. As it stands the only player I could see who could bring us high draft picks but we can also afford to lose is Mitchell. Yes the team dynamic has changed - but our best season result over the last 3 seasons is the one where Mitchell didn't play a single game.

In the season before we finished top 4 with those same players plus Mitchell. Anyway, you suggested his departed would be a blessing and we wouldn’t miss him as we didn’t miss buddy. I disagreed and you changed the argument to a completely different topic. Have a nice day

 

[Ned Ryerson]

In the season before we finished top 4 with those same players plus Mitchell. Anyway, you suggested his departed would be a blessing and we wouldn’t miss him as we didn’t miss buddy. I disagreed and you changed the argument to a completely different topic. Have a nice day

The post you quoted wasn't even in response to you, so it's a bit rich to accuse me of goalpost shifting. And I didn't say it would be a blessing if he left - I said it may be a blessing in disguise if he departed and likened it to the Buddy situation. I never once said that was a foregone conclusion. My whole argument has been that I would be happy if Mitchell stayed and I would also be happy if he wanted to leave if we got good picks out of the equation to help with the rebuild. I'm far from a Mitchell hater - I am just realistic and realise of any player with higher trade value at the moment he is probably the least risky to trade out due to the ability to get midfielders out of the draft.

 

[Brishawk]

Great for Tom that he’s gotten all of those individual achievements at the club - all the while our midfield is a mess at times because we have too many of the same type of midfielder and lack x-factor in the middle. Hence why losing him may be a blessing in disguise - a bit like how our forward line didn’t suffer when Franklin left.

Just a reminder of what you actually posted. Note, the absence of any discussion of trades or picks in return. Your whole argument here is that our midfield was a mess due to too many of the same type of midfielder. I dispute that. That was what I responded to. And it has nothing to do with trade value or rebuild or anything else you care to bring up after.

 

[Stratton24]

Listening to Tom Mitchell on rsn this morning, would be flabbergasted if he is not playing for Hawthorn next year.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Just a reminder of what you actually posted. Note, the absence of any discussion of trades or picks in return. Your whole argument here is that our midfield was a mess due to too many of the same type of midfielder. I dispute that. That was what I responded to. And it has nothing to do with trade value or rebuild or anything else you care to bring up after.

Again, you're quoting a post that wasn't replying to any post of yours. And if you want to pick up one post in among likely 10 or so I have made on a continuing discussion on the merits of Tom staying or going as some kind of gotcha - well have at it. There's multiple posts (including one where I outright say I am not suggesting Tom leaving would make us a better side) I have made that add to the context of my point that this is a discussion on the overall positives and negatives of Tom being traded in the context of our rebuild - feel free to ignore them for some bizarre game of 'no, you!' if you want. Honestly thought you were better than that.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Note, the absence of any discussion of trades or picks in return. Your whole argument here is that our midfield was a mess due to too many of the same type of midfielder.

Just because I am feeling petty today - my original post on this topic back on page 179:

Losing Mitchell won't phase me - happy if he stays, happy if we get a good trade for him. Turns 29 next year. Absolutely solid player and can drive up the disposals and hit the scoreboard when at his best - but there are a good deal of midfielders who average 5-10 less touches than him that can deal out more damage on the field than Titch does. He's a dependable workhorse but we are crying out for X-factor. Lacking him in 2019 we still finished 9th with as many wins as losses which is a far better outcome than both 2020 and 2021 when he did play. So long as the return works for us I won't be worried about him departing.

Now every post I make in the continuing discussion doesn't have to be in essay form where I have to restate my original argument that overall so long as the trade works for us I won't be crying into my cereal if Mitchell plays elsewhere next year. It might turn out to be a bad trade if the youngsters we get turn out to be trade busts - but that's the dice you have to roll. I am a big fan of Tom Mitchell - if you want to get really forensic about this you can go find 'big fish' threads from 2016 where I say that Mitchell is the big signing that I want and would rather him even if it meant missing out on O'Meara at the time. But I am a bigger supporter of the Hawthorn Football Club than any one player - even if they are as prolific at racking up the touches. If trading Tom gets us the opportunity of being closer to the next flag by getting a strong first round pick then I would be happy with the club pulling that trigger.

As good as Mitchell is I don't think I am speaking out of line by suggesting that he doesn't have that x-factor that some players do. He's not going to turn a game on its head like a Dusty Martin type of player can. That's not a knock on Tom - very few players have that ability. But if that next midfielder is potentially sitting in the first round this year and we can get another stab at that player - then I am all in on doing that this year. If the trade offer is a second rounder for Tom then the offering team can kindly go **** itself.

 

[dermott]

It is a bit disconcerting how often phase is incorrectly used instead of faze but I won’t let that daunt me as I am hopeful that, over time, it will be phased out.

 

[RutegerJones]

The post you quoted wasn't even in response to you, so it's a bit rich to accuse me of goalpost shifting. And I didn't say it would be a blessing if he left - I said it may be a blessing in disguise if he departed and likened it to the Buddy situation. I never once said that was a foregone conclusion. My whole argument has been that I would be happy if Mitchell stayed and I would also be happy if he wanted to leave if we got good picks out of the equation to help with the rebuild. I'm far from a Mitchell hater - I am just realistic and realise of any player with higher trade value at the moment he is probably the least risky to trade out due to the ability to get midfielders out of the draft.

While I understand how people draw parallels between the Buddy and Titch situations, I contend that the circumstances are vastly different. At the time we lost Buddy, we were the top team in the AFL. Yes he was our best forward, but we had a lot of talent, not just in the forward line, but all over the park to compensate. We're not in the same position now. Titch is our best midfielder and we simply don't have the depth to cover losing him - talent wise at least. But who knows what Mitchell can accomplish with a different midfield makeup and direction. No one player will be able to cover Titch's output, but it could be shared to some extent. I, like others, feel losing him will result in a much weaker midfield, in the short term at least.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

It is a bit disconcerting how often phase is incorrectly used instead of faze but I won’t let that daunt me as I am hopeful that, over time, it will be phased out.

This criticism I will happily cop.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

While I understand how people draw parallels between the Buddy and Titch situations, I contend that the circumstances are vastly different. At the time we lost Buddy, we were the top team in the AFL. Yes he was our best forward, but we had a lot of talent, not just in the forward line, but all over the park to compensate. We're not in the same position now. Titch is our best midfielder and we simply don't have the depth to cover losing him - talent wise at least. But who knows what Mitchell can accomplish with a different midfield makeup and direction. No one player will be able to cover Titch's output, but it could be shared to some extent. I, like others, feel losing him will result in a much weaker midfield, in the short term at least.

I am not suggesting we won't be hurt his loss - it's a gamble for sure. My reference in past posts is that we still got the job done in 2019 without him better than we did in 2020 and 2021 with him. Granted there's personnel changes every year so those comparisons aren't perfect. However, having younger players like Downie, Bramble, Newcombe and some potential midfielders drafted in who are ready for senior footy from day 1 might help to somewhat cover the loss as well as getting games into our younger brigade while still having experienced players like JOM, Wingard, Shiels and even Worpel to lead them around.

I'm certainly not saying that if Carlton are offering pick 6 that I will be driving to Tom's place to help him pack - but if that's the kind of return we get then I will be at peace with the decision overall. We don't have a great deal of trade collateral outside of Mitchell and I dare say injuries would have cruelled any value on Gunston and Sicily and I would prefer to keep both of them as our forward line and back line could use the leadership. I don't want to give up any of our younger players who are showing promise - and Hanrahan and Howe are unlikely to net much in return if they departed. I don't see many other ways to strengthen our draft hand. Based on all of that - if Mitchell goes and we get a decent first rounder as a result then I'm content. I'm content if he stays also.

 

[Pinoy Hawk]

While I understand how people draw parallels between the Buddy and Titch situations, I contend that the circumstances are vastly different. At the time we lost Buddy, we were the top team in the AFL. Yes he was our best forward, but we had a lot of talent, not just in the forward line, but all over the park to compensate. We're not in the same position now. Titch is our best midfielder and we simply don't have the depth to cover losing him - talent wise at least. But who knows what Mitchell can accomplish with a different midfield makeup and direction. No one player will be able to cover Titch's output, but it could be shared to some extent. I, like others, feel losing him will result in a much weaker midfield, in the short term at least.

On the other side of the coin, we have lost Tom with a broken leg in 2019.
We started bad that year then we jelled and almost made the 8.
Worpel stepped up that year.
It could possibly happen that somebody can step up if Tom is traded .... So maybe not the end of the world.

But if we trade Tom, hopefully we get good picks in return.

 

[Pessimistic]

Listening to Tom Mitchell on rsn this morning, would be flabbergasted if he is not playing for Hawthorn next year.

bnf winners who left? Sam Mitchell, Darren Jarman

 

[Simon Crawshay]

On the other side of the coin, we have lost Tom with a broken leg in 2019.
We started bad that year then we jelled and almost made the 8.
Worpel stepped up that year.
It could possibly happen that somebody can step up if Tom is traded .... So maybe not the end of the world.

But if we trade Tom, hopefully we get good picks in return.

I am a massive fan of Tom but if we did get fair compensation I wouldn't be against such a move as it can't be denied our midfield is very same / same but different with Mitchell, JOM and Worpel.

But it would have to be fair value, no trading him just for the sake of it. To me he is worth at least a pick between 10 and 15 and also a player.

He has at least 5 to 8 years of high quality footy left in him and he is durable as hell so we shouldn't get shortchanged in any trade even with his age.

 

[Pinoy Hawk]

I am a massive fan of Tom but if we did get fair compensation I wouldn't be against such a move as it can't be denied our midfield is very same / same but different with Mitchell, JOM and Worpel.

But it would have to be fair value, no trading him just for the sake of it. To me he is worth at least a pick between 10 and 15 and also a player.

He has at least 5 to 8 years of high quality footy left in him and he is durable as hell so we shouldn't get shortchanged in any trade even with his age.

Unlike you I am not a massive TOM fan

But like you , I wouldn't just give up our PCM winner for cheapies.
TOM holds value. I don't think we can get the same picks in return if we trade JOM or Worpel.

In hindsight, I think we lost in some of our previous year's trades (JOM, Wingard ... yeah some will argue we won or break even).
I reckon we shouldn't make the same mistakes again.

 

[KermitJagger]

In the absence of talent, we project our hopes onto players, willing them to become what the team needs.
Then a real talent shows up and makes you realise how far from the standard some players are, and how foolish we were for believing effort would make up the difference.

Nash's performances in the middle make the years long effort to turn him into a forward look similarly foolish.
He just looks a natural in the midfield. Never looked a natural forward.

Indeed, Nash in those few games in the midfield had more two way impact than any game I saw Cousins ever play. I watched Cousins have good games as a defensive midfielder and tagger, and I watched him have good games as a bloke who sat outside and did more attacking play - he never got the balance right between both and there were always big gaps in his game.

 

[Stratton24]

bnf winners who left? Sam Mitchell, Darren Jarman

I didn't hear radio interviews of them laughing at trade talk and talking about plans for the following season at Hawthorn

 

[Ned Ryerson]

I didn't hear radio interviews of them laughing at trade talk and talking about plans for the following season at Hawthorn

I actually remember an interview with Sammy after winning in 2016 where he was asked about playing with Mitchell or O'Meara and he said he was excited about playing with both.

 

[Stratton24]

I actually remember an interview with Sammy after winning in 2016 where he was asked about playing with Mitchell or O'Meara and he said he was excited about playing with both.

Sam was never directly asked about being traded and lied and said he was staying

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Sam was never directly asked about being traded and lied and said he was staying

Fair point.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Listening to Tom Mitchell on rsn this morning, would be flabbergasted if he is not playing for Hawthorn next year.

Prepare for your flabber to be gasted.
He’s now the most valuable trade asset we have(clearly he was already) in our weakest part of the ground, with clubs asking the question.

 

[Brishawk]

Again, you're quoting a post that wasn't replying to any post of yours. And if you want to pick up one post in among likely 10 or so I have made on a continuing discussion on the merits of Tom staying or going as some kind of gotcha - well have at it. There's multiple posts (including one where I outright say I am not suggesting Tom leaving would make us a better side) I have made that add to the context of my point that this is a discussion on the overall positives and negatives of Tom being traded in the context of our rebuild - feel free to ignore them for some bizarre game of 'no, you!' if you want. Honestly thought you were better than that.

And I don’t have a problem with trading Mitchell. For the right deal, I support it. But I’m sick of this myth that people have collectively perpetuating that mictchell, omeara and Worpel can’t function as unit because of them being similar types. That has nothing to do with trading or not trading Mitchell. Mitchell isn’t the cause of the issues and he isn’t going to solve them by being traded. So that is why I picked that post.

 

[CaptainWorpedo]

Medi

I didn't hear radio interviews of them laughing at trade talk and talking about plans for the following season at Hawthorn

Media was different then

 

[Pinoy Hawk]

Prepare for your flabber to be gasted.
He’s now the most valuable trade asset we have(clearly he was already) in our weakest part of the ground, with clubs asking the question.

I can only imagine Carlton or Richmond or maybe Freo asking.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

And I don’t have a problem with trading Mitchell. For the right deal, I support it. But I’m sick of this myth that people have collectively perpetuating that mictchell, omeara and Worpel can’t function as unit because of them being similar types. That has nothing to do with trading or not trading Mitchell. Mitchell isn’t the cause of the issues and he isn’t going to solve them by being traded. So that is why I picked that post.

I have never advocated trading him for that reason though. My rationale is that he is the most logical person to trade to get another high first round draft pick - the subsequent arguments are how that may or may not impact the side overall. Hence why I may be discussing his value to the midfield unit overall. None of us could be certain what impact that might have - my point is it may not be a disaster much like other times we have lost a core player, or Tom himself, it hasn't been the disaster others predicted it might be.