Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records
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1993 R20 WC v Haw Behind Correction...
Hawthorn once again
All references have Hawthorn's Andrew Gowers kicking 1 behind in this game, with 6 Rushed for Hawthorn.
Per below video, Gowers clearly kicks 2 behinds, Hawthorn's 6th and 8th. There are 5 Rushed for Hawthorn, all other scores align.
Summary -
1993 Rnd 20 WC v Haw - Andrew Gowers plus 1 behind, Rushed for Hawthorn minus 1 behind.
Hawthorn once again
All references have Hawthorn's Andrew Gowers kicking 1 behind in this game, with 6 Rushed for Hawthorn.
Per below video, Gowers clearly kicks 2 behinds, Hawthorn's 6th and 8th. There are 5 Rushed for Hawthorn, all other scores align.
Summary -
1993 Rnd 20 WC v Haw - Andrew Gowers plus 1 behind, Rushed for Hawthorn minus 1 behind.
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Leon Beer (SM) is currently recorded with death date 12 February 1966.
There is a month error in this date as death notice and grave both show death date was 12 January 1966
Summary: Date of death for Leon Beer is 12 January 1966 rather than 12 February 1966
There is a month error in this date as death notice and grave both show death date was 12 January 1966
Summary: Date of death for Leon Beer is 12 January 1966 rather than 12 February 1966
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Jack McMillan (Footscray) is currently recorded with death date 30 August 1969.
Find a Grave has newspaper death notices attached to record which shows actual death date was 1 August 1969 and cemetery records show service was 4 August 1969 - Vic BDM shows only one death for a John Angus McMillan in 1969 so its definitely the right guy.
Summary: Date of death for Jack McMillan is 1 August 1969 rather than 30 August 1969
Find a Grave has newspaper death notices attached to record which shows actual death date was 1 August 1969 and cemetery records show service was 4 August 1969 - Vic BDM shows only one death for a John Angus McMillan in 1969 so its definitely the right guy.
Summary: Date of death for Jack McMillan is 1 August 1969 rather than 30 August 1969
1993 Rnd 02 Syd v Haw behind correction.
All references have Hawthorn's James Morrissey kicking 1 behind in this game and Richard Taylor kicking none.
Per below vid, Taylor kicks a behind, Hawthorn's 3rd. James Morrissey does not kick a behind in this game.
No score put up after the point is kicked, but Richard Taylor wearing 4 up in Sydney- 93 R02 was the only game he did that. All other scores align. (The behind guy of this era really didn't care for Hawthorn - other teams always seem correct).
Summary -
1993 Rnd 2 Syd v Haw - Richard B. Taylor plus 1 behind, James Morrissey minus 1 behind.
All references have Hawthorn's James Morrissey kicking 1 behind in this game and Richard Taylor kicking none.
Per below vid, Taylor kicks a behind, Hawthorn's 3rd. James Morrissey does not kick a behind in this game.
No score put up after the point is kicked, but Richard Taylor wearing 4 up in Sydney- 93 R02 was the only game he did that. All other scores align. (The behind guy of this era really didn't care for Hawthorn - other teams always seem correct).
Summary -
1993 Rnd 2 Syd v Haw - Richard B. Taylor plus 1 behind, James Morrissey minus 1 behind.
I thought something about that looked familiar, especially the death notices from the Bird Lovers folks!: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...ficial-records.1089761/page-126#post-78547692
I failed to include a summary of the post (in bold) so it's quite possible Steve R. missed it!
AFL Tables still has this player as Jack MacMillan: https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/J/Jack_MacMillan.html
*Paul*
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Jack MacMillan/McMillan.
The 4 game 17 goal bloke from the stats book?
The 4 game 17 goal bloke from the stats book?
Yes. He kicked 7 on debut.
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Pretty good start to a brief career.
OH!
SHIT!
Just realised.
He'll have to be Jack McMillan for future stats books.
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Another death date correction
Fred Williams (Carlton/Fitzroy) is currently recorded with death date 7 March 1975.
Player was Frederick Watson Williams, born in North Melbourne to Frederick Williams (1866–1933) and Mary Henderson Watson (1871–1940) and had a brother Thomas Chapman Williams (1909-1990) who also played for Fitzroy - also referenced here.
Newspaper death notices show actual date of death was 20 December 1975 - includes mention of family being from Melton and brother Tom which all lines up with player identity - and he was cremated at Fawkner Cemetery on 23 December 1975.
The high number on Vic BDM death record (29378/1975) also suggests a death late in the year.
Summary: Date of death for Fred Williams is 20 December 1975 rather than 7 March 1975
Oliver G
The Blueseum
Fred Williams (Carlton/Fitzroy) is currently recorded with death date 7 March 1975.
Player was Frederick Watson Williams, born in North Melbourne to Frederick Williams (1866–1933) and Mary Henderson Watson (1871–1940) and had a brother Thomas Chapman Williams (1909-1990) who also played for Fitzroy - also referenced here.
Newspaper death notices show actual date of death was 20 December 1975 - includes mention of family being from Melton and brother Tom which all lines up with player identity - and he was cremated at Fawkner Cemetery on 23 December 1975.
The high number on Vic BDM death record (29378/1975) also suggests a death late in the year.
Summary: Date of death for Fred Williams is 20 December 1975 rather than 7 March 1975
Oliver G
The Blueseum
1993 Rnd 10 WB v Haw - Half Time Score Correction
All online references have Footscray's half-time score as 5.5 (35). It was actually 6.5 (41).
Footscray kicked 4.1 in the 2nd qtr, not 3.1.
The entire game is on youtube. Here is the Dog's 6th goal of the first half, a couple of minutes before half time.
The Age on the Sunday had the score correct at 6.5, but the Footy Record the following week was incorrect.
Summary -
1993 Rnd 10 WB v Haw - Correct Footscray's half time score from 5.5 (35) to 6.5 (41). All other qtr x qtr remain the same.
All online references have Footscray's half-time score as 5.5 (35). It was actually 6.5 (41).
Footscray kicked 4.1 in the 2nd qtr, not 3.1.
The entire game is on youtube. Here is the Dog's 6th goal of the first half, a couple of minutes before half time.
The Age on the Sunday had the score correct at 6.5, but the Footy Record the following week was incorrect.
Summary -
1993 Rnd 10 WB v Haw - Correct Footscray's half time score from 5.5 (35) to 6.5 (41). All other qtr x qtr remain the same.
While doing some research for the family of Brian Falconer (Hawthorn), I came across the discovery that he wore Number 5, in the Round 16 1957 match, rather than his usual No. 36, inthe footage I uploaded last month.
The commentators specifically make reference to it
at the 26.10second mark.
Summary: Brian Falconer (Haw) - Number 5 guernsey for Rd 16 1957
The commentators specifically make reference to it
at the 26.10second mark.
Summary: Brian Falconer (Haw) - Number 5 guernsey for Rd 16 1957
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Ken Goodland (Geelong) is currently recorded with death date 26 March 1982.
Player was Kenneth Gilmore John Goodland and from his burial record and NSW BDM it can be seen he actually died on 26 March 1983 (one year later than currently recorded - probably just from a typo somewhere)
Summary: Date of death for Ken Goodland is 26 March 1983 rather than 26 March 1982
Oliver G
Player was Kenneth Gilmore John Goodland and from his burial record and NSW BDM it can be seen he actually died on 26 March 1983 (one year later than currently recorded - probably just from a typo somewhere)
Summary: Date of death for Ken Goodland is 26 March 1983 rather than 26 March 1982
Oliver G
1939 Preliminary Final - St K vs Collingwood footage I uploaded shows Collingwood number 23 at the centre bounce.
AFL / AF don't have a 23. The footy record of the match however has Marcus Whelan as Number 23.
There may be many more changes once I eventually get through looking at all of the old uploads.
Summary: Marcus Whelan No. 23 not No. 28 for 1939 Preliminary Final v St Kilda
AFL / AF don't have a 23. The footy record of the match however has Marcus Whelan as Number 23.
There may be many more changes once I eventually get through looking at all of the old uploads.
Summary: Marcus Whelan No. 23 not No. 28 for 1939 Preliminary Final v St Kilda
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Out of interest, what is the AFL's burden of proof for guernsey numbers? Do we need to be able to show what number the player started the match in, or what number they finished it in?
E.g. with the Brian Falconer one above, is it possible that he started the game in number 36 but changed into 5 after 36 was somehow ruined? And does that matter?
E.g. with the Brian Falconer one above, is it possible that he started the game in number 36 but changed into 5 after 36 was somehow ruined? And does that matter?
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There are occassions where players start the game in the number and finish in another number , and those changes are reflected on AF, and AFLTables with both guernsey numbers for the match.
For different guernseys number there needs to be some visual proof (newspaper/footage). There's no reference in the papers atm that say Falconer began with Number 36 , and the commentators dont say that - so for him we would say he wore Number 5, until evidence arose showing him in a different number earlier.
Marcus Whelan actually wore #23 all the way through 1939. In 1938 he wore #28. Most records have that around the other way. There's quite a few changes such as the Whelan ones that were made ages ago in the records of Collingwood FC and the AFL, but unfortunately they haven't made it on to the stats sites. We (Collingwood guys) were under the impression that the AFL chaps were going to pass on news of these changes, but that obviously hasn't happened. Again, these are changes that were made/officially approved some time ago, and ideally they would have been made public by now.
Many of these changes I'm referring to do appear on Collingwood Forever, and soon after the site is relaunched (hopefully quite soon now!!) we should have the rest on display.
I will send a private message to a couple of folks here explaining this situation in a bit more detail!
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A few years ago I posted on the "missing birth/death dates" section a query about St Kilda player Fred Harrison. I cannot see that we reached a conclusion on that matter so it seems appropriate I think for it to be followed up in this section.
Fred Harrison (St Kilda) 1 match on 26 June 1915
https://australianfootball.com/players/player/Fred+Harrison/3424
The birth and death dates given on that page match those for Frederick George Harrison who was born in NSW and died in NSW. Each of the two records (birth #28110/1893 death #27850/1979) indexed at the NSW BDMs website show father’s name as Frederick and mother’s name as Rose.
His World War One record (service #3311 item ID 4741776) identifies his next of kin as mother Rose, and gives his date of enlistment as 7 August 1915, and place of enlistment as Warwick Farm NSW.
His physical measurements shown in the documents at the National Archives - height (5ft 3 3/4in) and weight (110 lb) - are very different to what are shown in his football record (5ft 10in) and (172 lb)
An article published in the Sporting Globe in 1928 goes into great detail about his long and successful career as a marksman with rifle.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/183964446
The articles about Harrison's single VFL match that I’ve seen so far identify him by surname only, and that he was from the Beverley football club.
The Sporting Judge: http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/154819483
The Age: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/154992307
The Argus: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/1527407
VFL Record: http://handle.slv.vic.gov.au/10381/131863 (see page 28)
FG Harrison's long career as a competition marksman does not seem to match that of a person who plays football in another state, and the detailed NSW links seem at odds with being a resident of Victoria.
Summary: remove birth and death dates for Harrison (St Kilda 1915) and investigate further to try and confirm his given name.
Fred Harrison (St Kilda) 1 match on 26 June 1915
https://australianfootball.com/players/player/Fred+Harrison/3424
The birth and death dates given on that page match those for Frederick George Harrison who was born in NSW and died in NSW. Each of the two records (birth #28110/1893 death #27850/1979) indexed at the NSW BDMs website show father’s name as Frederick and mother’s name as Rose.
His World War One record (service #3311 item ID 4741776) identifies his next of kin as mother Rose, and gives his date of enlistment as 7 August 1915, and place of enlistment as Warwick Farm NSW.
His physical measurements shown in the documents at the National Archives - height (5ft 3 3/4in) and weight (110 lb) - are very different to what are shown in his football record (5ft 10in) and (172 lb)
An article published in the Sporting Globe in 1928 goes into great detail about his long and successful career as a marksman with rifle.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/183964446
The articles about Harrison's single VFL match that I’ve seen so far identify him by surname only, and that he was from the Beverley football club.
The Sporting Judge: http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/154819483
The Age: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/154992307
The Argus: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/1527407
VFL Record: http://handle.slv.vic.gov.au/10381/131863 (see page 28)
FG Harrison's long career as a competition marksman does not seem to match that of a person who plays football in another state, and the detailed NSW links seem at odds with being a resident of Victoria.
Summary: remove birth and death dates for Harrison (St Kilda 1915) and investigate further to try and confirm his given name.
This has Harrison as a new player at Beverley in 1914, and I imagine they mean he (along with Moore and Lord) was from the Continuation School:
This 1914 article suggests a Harrison from Beverley had played for Fitzroy at senior level:
They should be referring to Artie Harrison, who played for Fitzroy 1913-14 (also with Richmond in 1911): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artie_Harrison
I haven't been able to find a Beverley connection with him, so wonder if that is correct. He enlisted in June 1915, and I doubt he could possibly be the St Kilda player. I thought perhaps he might have had a brother who was the Beverley player, but it looks as if his only brother died at a very young age.
It looks as if the Continuation School must have been somewhere local (Richmond area):
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I think he could be the one who enlisted. His AIF record says he enlisted on that date but left in July
Given the proximity of dates I am keeping an open mind on his availability 5 days later
But also recognise the lack of ''played for Fitzroy'' info - instead naming him as a Beverley player
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The Continuation School in 1914 - Unfortunately no names
Arthur Charles 'Artie' Harrison, who played for Fitzroy, went to another game the day "Fred" Harrison played his one and only game for St Kilda! From Football Record Rd. 11 1915:
So it definitely won't have been him playing for the Saints!!
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It seems the star NSW shooter was another Frederick George Harrison, who was born c. 1882 and died 1956:- https://nraa.com.au/wp-content/uplo...he-1919-Australian-Rifle-Team-v1-3-Apr-21.pdf
The top one of these two should be him:
He was an Armourer Sergeant:
I'm not sure where that leaves us - still looking for a Victorian Harrison, I'd say!! It would be nice to at least see a permit for this player, something with an initial or two, as I do wonder just where the name Fred came from!
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