Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[ThePope]

I've started to go through the 2013 obituary list from the AFL Season Guide, and I've found a few likely errors:

1. Brian Buckley, 37 games for Footscray, has always been listed as being born 29 March 1936, convenient for the Wikipedia naming convention, as another Brian Buckley who played for Carlton was born in August 1935. But the AFL obit page, and a couple of online obits, including one in Fairfax papers say Footscray's Buckley was also born in 1935. I'm convinced, so I've updated Wikipedia, just need AFL Tables and AustralianFootball.com Oliver Gigacz to also agree. Luckily this Buckley's post football career as a political advisor was probably more notable than his football career, so I've used that for the article title.
2. Reg Hall has an error in his death date. His cemetery record and death notice states 6 Aug 2013 (love the "please wear East Perth club colours line in the funeral notice!) but the AFL obituary list has 8 Aug 2013. Tigerland doesn't have a date of death, rbartlett. This one needs to be fed back to the AFL via the spreadsheet.
3. Danny Powell has a death date of 27 January 2013 in all online sources, but in the book the AFL had 7 Jan. Maybe a typo, maybe they got it wrong. Death notices say 27.
4. Ray Slocum. AFL, AustFooty and death notice say 1936, AFL Tables (and until a minute ago) Wikipedia said 1937. *Paul*

 

[rbartlett]

I've started to go through the 2013 obituary list from the AFL Season Guide, and I've found a few likely errors:

1. 
   
2. Reg Hall has an error in his death date. His cemetery record and death notice states 6 Aug 2013 (love the "please wear East Perth club colours line in the funeral notice!) but the AFL obituary list has 8 Aug 2013. Tigerland doesn't have a date of death, rbartlett. This one needs to be fed back to the AFL via the spreadsheet.

TigerlandArchive updated

 

[Supermercado]

Finding out just why Bryan didn't show up might prove interesting as well! Perhaps Baquie may simply have been left out of the team (originally); this Sporting Judge article suggests his form hadn't been good?:
View attachment 580121

This was the lineup in The Age the day before the match (Bacquie, Bryan and George were all named):
View attachment 580134
Gibb must have been the last minute replacement for Bryan - he is named in the official lineup (another paper suggested he did a poor job of taking his place).

Edit: Bryan was absent in Sydney, according to Winner.

Funnily enough Gibb gets a start in the official records alongside Bryan. I reckon he was the late replacement but they've counted Bryan into the official team instead of Bacquie.

 

[35Daicos]

Funnily enough Gibb gets a start in the official records alongside Bryan. I reckon he was the late replacement but they've counted Bryan into the official team instead of Bacquie.

Yes (just in case what I posted there didn't make sense!!); we know for sure that Baquie needs to replace Bryan in the official lineup. Gibb is of course in the official lineup, yet wasn't named in the team in The Age (day before the game) or the Football Record (placed team), so it does seem certain that he was the late replacement when Bryan didn't show up. Why the records ended up leaving Baquie out (especially as he was in the side for the previous game) is a mystery!!

 

[35Daicos]

I think it's very likely that Ossy Armstrong or perhaps Les Armstrong played for Geelong in the 1915 Rd. 17 (South Melb.) and 18 (Fitzroy) games. Harold Craven is named in the official lineups, but two weeks in a row The Herald names Armstrong (and not Craven) in the team (post-match). Neither are mentioned in The Herald match reports.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242362834 (rd. 17)


https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242361809 (rd. 18)


From The Age match report of the rd. 17 game:


The rd. 18 Football Record names L. Armstrong in the placed 18 (not Craven). I'm not sure whether they mean O. Armstrong instead of L. Armstrong, though Les was meant to be a BP/HBF, which seems to fit. O. Armstrong was also named in a back pocket by The Herald for his 2nd and 3rd game, so that doesn't mean much! This comment in The Age match report on the rd. 17 game suggests L. Armstrong was gone or going soon:



The Geelong Advertiser named both Armstrong and Craven in the squads for both games. I haven't spotted any other mention of those players in relation to the two matches.

I'd like to see who was named in the Football Record rd. 17 lineup but the service is currently not available (again)!

Edit: This 7 Aug. article says L. Armstrong "fractured his leg at work", so if an Armstrong did play instead of Craven in those two late season games, it probably would be Ossy!! However, a later report said his leg wasn't fractured, so Les may not be out of the running after all!

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

DOD correction - Edwin Page (Ted) Kennedy (Carl) currently has DOD 27 Jul 1948 in footy records
As per death notices and grave correct date is 23 Jul 1948 - will add to spreadsheet

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

I think it's very likely that Ossy Armstrong or perhaps Les Armstrong played for Geelong in the 1915 Rd. 17 (South Melb.) and 18 (Fitzroy) games. Harold Craven is named in the official lineups, but two weeks in a row The Herald names Armstrong (and not Craven) in the team (post-match). Neither are mentioned in The Herald match reports.

...
I'd like to see who was named in the Football Record rd. 17 lineup but the service is currently not available (again)!

I have them saved as pdfs... Round 17 Record names Gill in the back pocket (neither Craven or Armstrong in team - all other players match official line up)

 

[35Daicos]

I have them saved as pdfs... Round 17 Record names Gill in the back pocket (neither Craven or Armstrong in team - all other players match official line up)

Thanks for that. As well as Gill, Thomas was named in that Football Record side, so those two didn't play and Craven and Landy made it into the official line-up. It's pretty definite that Landy played, Craven is the doubtful one.

The Rd. 16 Record does say that L. Armstrong would be out for the season. So if an Armstrong did come into the side at the end of the season it should have been O. Armstrong.

I do have almost 1,000 Football Records on the computer (saved as pdfs) and will eventually get the rest, but at the moment there's still a lot of gaps in the collection.

 

[ThePope]

2016 checks:

• Kevin Coppock: most sources have his DOB as 9 May 1932, but the 2016 AFL obit list and Tigerarchive has 19 May 1932. Nothing in the Herald Sun tributes or Trove, but the cemetery record says 9 May, so I think that is almost certainly correct and the AFL should be notified (WhiteHartLane23 spreadsheet). Tigerarchive is also missing the death date.
• Jack Pimm. DOD 7 Oct 1920 (all our sources, and the cemetery record), AFL list says 7 Oct 1921. AFL is wrong. (Edited, was originally accidentally written 9 Oct)
• Alec Ingwersen DOD 21 Sep 2016 missing from Demonwiki (Supermercado)
• Ken Osborne, DOD 3 Jan 2016, exact date missing from Demonwiki
• Marty Lynch, DOD 17 Dec 2016, not 11 Dec 2016, AFL list is correct, AustralianFootball.com is not (Oliver Gigacz)
• Daniel Murnane, DOB 23 March 1925, not 25 March. AFL list is correct, AustralianFootball.com & AFL Tables is not.
• Don Walsh DOB 25 August 1934, not 26th. Assume AFL list is correct, AustralianFootball.com & AFL Tables is not. Coll Forever too, and is missing the DOD.
  
• Tom Simpson DOB 6 Apr 1933. All our sources (Wiki, AFL Tables, AustFoot, Tigerland) say 1935. Herald Sun Obit says 1933. Can't find a notice in Trove (Ballarat papers?) or a cemetery record (nothing on Balllarat or Melb sites). No death date (29 Feb 2016) on Tigerland.

 

[the croucher]

2016 checks:
<snip>

• Jack Pimm. DOD 9 Oct 1920 (all our sources, and the cemetery record), AFL list says 9 Oct 1921. AFL is wrong.

<snip>

Just an alert about exact DOB for Pimm:

John Huggett Pimm entry in a family tree on Ancestry has 7 Oct 1920.
His WW2 record also shows same date
http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/Veteran.aspx?serviceId=A&veteranId=546676

I have sent the Ancestry member a brief note asking if there is a specific ref for date as 7th. Will pass on any feedback.

Edit: great, heard back from that person within a couple of hours - they quoted WW2 Nominal Roll as a source, and Fawkner Cemetery record for him as well. So, with the birth notice on Trove in addition to these others, think it certain that Pimm's DOB is 7 Oct 1920.

 

[ThePope]

Just an alert about exact DOB for Pimm:

John Huggett Pimm entry in a family tree on Ancestry has 7 Oct 1920.
His WW2 record also shows same date
http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/Veteran.aspx?serviceId=A&veteranId=546676

I have sent the Ancestry member a brief note asking if there is a specific ref for date as 7th. Will pass on any feedback.

Sorry, that was a typo by me. I was so focused on the 1920 vs 1921 issue I completely stuffed up the day of birth. Everywhere says the 7th, not the 9th including the original birth notice in the paper. Will edit to avoid future confusion.

 

[the croucher]

Just an alert about exact DOB for Pimm:

John Huggett Pimm entry in a family tree on Ancestry has 7 Oct 1920.
His WW2 record also shows same date
http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/Veteran.aspx?serviceId=A&veteranId=546676

I have sent the Ancestry member a brief note asking if there is a specific ref for date as 7th. Will pass on any feedback.

Have already had a reply from the Ancestry member - he had also seen the WW2 record, but commented that the Fawkner Cemetery record also showed DOB as 7/10/1920.
When I checked found that it does indicate same for Jack Huggett Pimm
http://www.gmct.com.au/deceased-search.aspx

Perhaps a double-check on the sources which show 9 Oct ?

Sorry, that was a typo by me. I was so focused on the 1920 vs 1921 issue I completely stuffed up the day of birth. Everywhere says the 7th, not the 9th including the original birth notice in the paper. Will edit to avoid future confusion.

No worries, happens to all of us now and then.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Think I've stumbled across a DOB/DOD error for Pat Ryan (Carlton)
All football sources I have checked have DOB 9 Mar 1889 and death 14 Aug 1937

Birth seems to match:
Patrick Daniel Ryan born to Daniel Ryan and Maria Larkin
Birth 09/03/1889 Charters Towers Queensland Australia, however Ancestry & Qld BDM show this person died 03/03/1976 Queensland Australia

Death was in Albury according to Blueseum and NSW BDM confirms
17544/1937 RYAN PATRICK DANIEL 48 YRS ALBURY - unfortunately no parents listed on NSW BDM site

Ancestry trees suggest this Patrick Daniel Ryan was born in 1886 in Cashel (near Dookie) to Daniel Ryan and Maria Keogh

Given the similar parents names and dates its easy to see how this could have been confused but I'm pretty sure at least one of the existing DOB/DOD is wrong - most likely the DOB.

 

[GreyCrow]

Think I've stumbled across a DOB/DOD error for Pat Boyd (Carlton)
All football sources I have checked have DOB 9 Mar 1889 and death 14 Aug 1937

Birth seems to match:
Patrick Daniel Ryan born to Daniel Ryan and Maria Larkin
Birth 09/03/1889 Charters Towers Queensland Australia, however Ancestry & Qld BDM show this person died 03/03/1976 Queensland Australia

Death was in Albury according to Blueseum and NSW BDM confirms
17544/1937 RYAN PATRICK DANIEL 48 YRS ALBURY - unfortunately no parents listed on NSW BDM site

Ancestry trees suggest this Patrick Daniel Ryan was born in 1886 in Cashel (near Dookie) to Daniel Ryan and Maria Keogh

Given the similar parents names and dates its easy to see how this could have been confused but I'm pretty sure at least one of the existing DOB/DOD is wrong - most likely the DOB.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article106336755 Obit mentions family and spouse

This link confirms the man http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article102692286

Saturday of Mr. Patrick Daniel Ryan, aged 49 years. For about 14 years Mr. Ryan was in the employ of Blacklock's as a motor salesman, and
had visited all parts of Riverina. He was at Holbrook about a fortnight ago and contracted a chill. On medical advice he went as a patient to the
Albury District Hospital suffering with pneumonia. Mr. Ryan was a native of Dookie (Vic), where his father, the late Mr. Daniel Ryan, was one of the first settlers. In his young days he was an all-round athlete, and a noted exponent of Australian Rules football. He played with Carlton, Seymour, Berrima, St. James and Dookie teams.

Vic BDM confirms Daniel and Maria (Keogh)

 

[the croucher]

I think I have found another player with lifespan date discrepancies.
Charlie James (Sth Melb) early VFL years
https://australianfootball.com/players/player/charlie+james/1380

Official records appear to show DOB 9 Feb 1874 and DOD 4 Aug 1948
I think they should change to DOB c 1877 and DOD 9 Jan 1936

article about his death and career with South Melb in The Record 18 Jan 1936
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/164482888

a check of Vic BDMs found official record for Alfred Charles James
Vic deaths - 1936/393
father: Alfred James Lucas mother: Sophia Tice (Lucas)
POB unknown POD Port Melbourne age 59

His death notice in The Argus 11 Jan 1936
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11872612

JAMES. — On the 9th January (suddenly), at Port Melbourne, Alfred Charles James, loving friend of Katie, Freda, Jim, and Jack James and the late Mr. and Mrs. A. Gaylor.


His mother's death notice in The Age 18 Dec 1930
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/4237473

LUCAS. — On the 17th December, Sophia Tice Lucas, the dearly loved friend of Mrs. K. F. James and family,
aged 90 and 8 months. At rest.


Death notice (for who is assumed to be the Mrs K F James noted in mother's as above) in The Argus 10 Feb 1953
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/23227006

JAMES, Katherine Frederica — On February 9, at her residence, 49 Argyle street, St Kilda, loved wife of the late Walter John, beloved mother of Jim, Jack, and Freda (Mrs. Francis), mother-in-law of Ann James and Jim Francis, and loving grandma of Walter (deceased) and Dick, aged 86 years. — At rest.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

I think I have found another player with lifespan date discrepancies.
Charlie James (Sth Melb) early VFL years
I think they should change to DOB c 1877 and DOD 9 Jan 1936

Yes - will add this to the spreadsheet as obit clearly identifies him as dying in 1936.

I suspect Vic BDM 1880/9464 may be his birth - unmarried mother and he seems to have adopted James as a surname later in life
Family name: LUCAS
Given names: Alf Chas Jas
Mother's name: Sophia (Lucas)
Place of birth: HOTHAM

 

[the croucher]

Yes - will add this to the spreadsheet as obit clearly identifies him as dying in 1936.

I suspect Vic BDM 1880/9464 may be his birth - unmarried mother and he seems to have adopted James as a surname later in life
Family name: LUCAS
Given names: Alf Chas Jas
Mother's name: Sophia (Lucas)
Place of birth: HOTHAM

Ah, thanks for that, well done.

 

[35Daicos]

I see AFL Tables has recently added a new player: https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/T/Tom_Darcy.html

His one game in 1904 for South Melbourne previously was credited to: https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/J/Jim_Darcy.html
https://afltables.com/afl/changes.html :Jim Darcy -> Tom Darcy, South rd10, 1904 (It should say rd17)

https://australianfootball.com/players/player/jim+darcy/921

This topic was raised here, but it seems a DOB/DOD are still needed.

 

[*Paul*]

Fixed that rd10 thing.

It appears Gary Ablett sr kicked two goals, not one here:
https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1982/101419820424.html

with Richard Loveridge having to relinquish one of his 3.

SO either the opposite happened at some other time to even it out, or Ablett moves to a new total of 1031 goals.

 

[the croucher]

Fixed that rd10 thing.

It appears Gary Ablett sr kicked two goals, not one here:
https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1982/101419820424.html

with Richard Loveridge having to relinquish one of his 3.

SO either the opposite happened at some other time to even it out, or Ablett moves to a new total of 1031 goals.

Yes, Ablett 2 and Loveridge 2 as per match details in The Age
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=MzNVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=sZQDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6790,5693533

and the VFL Record the next week also has same on page 30 for Rnd 5 results
http://handle.slv.vic.gov.au/10381/132237
http://search.slv.vic.gov.au/

 

[Gibbsy]

Fixed that rd10 thing.

It appears Gary Ablett sr kicked two goals, not one here:
https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1982/101419820424.html

with Richard Loveridge having to relinquish one of his 3.

SO either the opposite happened at some other time to even it out, or Ablett moves to a new total of 1031 goals.

Wow. It amazes me how this has only been discovered now. Great find.

 

[rbartlett]

So Ablett should now be on 1031 career goals , right ?
Apart from his wiki, this page would also need updating https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_VFL/AFL_players_to_have_scored_500_goals

 

[the croucher]

Another update required for a DOD. This time it is Jim Marchbank at australianfootball.com, and then his Wikipedia page.

Details at the moment have 6 January 1959 as date of death. Simple accidental typo in years past I reckon.
Should be 6 January 1958 as confirmed by search of NSW BDMs and by death notice in The Age issue of 8 Jan 1958
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=D0wRAAAAIBAJ&sjid=dJUDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7038,796939

 

[RedmanWasHere]

So Ablett should now be on 1031 career goals , right ?
Apart from his wiki, this page would also need updating https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_VFL/AFL_players_to_have_scored_500_goals

And every other website that has his profile and statistics.

 

[the croucher]

So Ablett should now be on 1031 career goals , right ?
Apart from his wiki, this page would also need updating https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_VFL/AFL_players_to_have_scored_500_goals

And all sites showing Richard Loveridge's career records need to reduce his goal tally from 120 to 119.