Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

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I think a correction needs to be made to official records for goalkickers in the 1917 Rnd 1 match South Melbourne v Geelong.
AFL details appear to have goals listed for Sth Melb as Boyce 3, Howell 2, Caldwell, Robertson, O’Donoghue & Doherty 1 each.
https://australianfootball.com/game/view/1570

Remove O'Donoghue and credit that goal to Howell so totals read
Boyce 3, Howell 3, Caldwell, Robertson and Doherty 1 each.

Evidence as per VFL Record Rnd 2 see page 14, plus match reports in The Herald & the Geelong Advertiser
http://handle.slv.vic.gov.au/10381/131827
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242682079
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/119724684
 
Have come across another curly one.

While checking on who was official captain for Collingwood at start of 1917 season (it is McHale, not Wilson as listed in many sources/sites); I noticed this passing reference to McHale missing the Rnd 3 match vs Fitzroy due to "business reasons."
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/...imits=dateFrom=1917-05-01|||dateTo=1917-05-31

If he was unable to play and perform his role as captain for reasons given, then isn't it likely that he was also unable to be present and perform role as coach that day ?

He also missed the Rnd 4 match but so far haven't found any comment in the press about that.
 

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the croucher said:
Have come across another curly one.

While checking on who was official captain for Collingwood at start of 1917 season (it is McHale, not Wilson as listed in many sources/sites); I noticed this passing reference to McHale missing the Rnd 3 match vs Fitzroy due to "business reasons."
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242681213?searchTerm="m'hale" business &searchLimits=dateFrom=1917-05-01|||dateTo=1917-05-31

If he was unable to play and perform his role as captain for reasons given, then isn't it likely that he was also unable to be present and perform role as coach that day ?

He also missed the Rnd 4 match but so far haven't found any comment in the press about that.
Click to expand...
This article (from the same paper and column a week later) suggests McHale was dropped for the Fitzroy game due to poor form:
upload_2018-12-2_20-49-44.png
 
I've only just started looking into this one, but it seems pretty likely that Jack Cronk played (instead of Edmund Hood) for Richmond in their 1917 Rd. 4 game against Fitzroy.

The Herald names Cronk in the lineup (post match), and has Hood(e) as one of four players going out of the side. Cronk was in the team the week before. The Age also has Hood going out. A week later The Herald had Cronk as one of three players going out of the Rd. 5 team.
 
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This one has already been raised as forum post 1834.
35Daicos said:
I've only just started looking into this one, but it seems pretty likely that Jack Cronk played (instead of Edmund Hood) for Richmond in their 1917 Rd. 4 game against Fitzroy.

The Herald names Cronk in the lineup (post match), and has Hood(e) as one of four players going out of the side. Cronk was in the team the week before.
A week later The Herald had Cronk as one of three players going out of the Rd. 5 team.
Click to expand...
 
the croucher said:
Have come across another curly one.

While checking on who was official captain for Collingwood at start of 1917 season (it is McHale, not Wilson as listed in many sources/sites); I noticed this passing reference to McHale missing the Rnd 3 match vs Fitzroy due to "business reasons."
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242681213?searchTerm="m'hale" business &searchLimits=dateFrom=1917-05-01|||dateTo=1917-05-31

If he was unable to play and perform his role as captain for reasons given, then isn't it likely that he was also unable to be present and perform role as coach that day ?

He also missed the Rnd 4 match but so far haven't found any comment in the press about that.
Click to expand...
I see the Football Record Season Guide and Collingwood Forever website have Wilson instead of McHale for Collingwood captain in 1917. The Football Record was in no doubt that McHale was the captain, so it's puzzling that the AFL records now name Wilson.
upload_2018-12-2_22-23-20.png
Edit: The Grand Final Football Record still names McHale as captain and Wilson vice-captain on the "team list" page. This Sporting Judge article has Wilson as captain on Grand Final day. McHale was in the side. The Leader also has Wilson as captain on GF day. The same paper suggests Wilson was captain for the Rd. 14 game (McHale played).

The book The Mightiest Magpies - The Story Of Every Collingwood Premiership Season 1896-2010 says "Wilson was appointed captain early in the season to replace Jock McHale."

McHale only played 9 games that year, while Wilson played 18. Seemingly, because McHale was struggling (and no longer an automatic selection) the move was made at some stage of the year. Even though it looks like he was replaced, and wasn't captain of the Premiership-winning team, I'd have thought McHale still deserves to have his name in the records for 1917 (along with Wilson).
 
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GreyCrow said:
As a sidelight Wraith the person dropped for McHale in 1917 also missed the 1919 flag
Click to expand...
If he was dropped (again) for the 1919 GF he must have been very unlucky! He kicked 2 goals (out of 6) the week before in the Prelim Final against Richmond, and two in the other final Collingwood played that year.

He did play in the (losing) Grand Final side in 1918!!
 

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I am gradually going through the spreadsheet and updating AF accordingly, will hopefully get through it this week. Just put in a couple of the new players today.

George Alfred McLeod (Serial 85) has been added and the other George McLeod has been amended.

https://australianfootball.com/Players/player/George McLeod/20446

I have also added Tom Darcy (Serial 89) with Jim Darcy amended, however there seems to be conflicting reports on his DOB/DOD. Do we have a definitive DOB/DOB?

DOB: 1881 DOD: 29/12/1953 is the info I have.

https://australianfootball.com/players/player/Tom+Darcy/20445
 
35Daicos said:
I see the Football Record Season Guide and Collingwood Forever website have Wilson instead of McHale for Collingwood captain in 1917. The Football Record was in no doubt that McHale was the captain, so it's puzzling that the AFL records now name Wilson.
<snip>
Click to expand...

Seems to have been an error in the system for a long time.
Have just checked my copy of the 1968 Footy Annual and Wilson is listed there as captain for 1917.
 
I've begun a detailed audit of "official" captains in the VFL era. Note: at moment this relates principally to start of season.
I'll adjust list as more detailed research occurs, including refs to mid or late season changes.

1897 - all clear, same as listed on most club honour boards and publications

1898 - Carlton in error, the captain at start of that season was Jimmy Aitken, not Walton
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/227737521
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/108484043

1914 - Richmond in error [some publications and sites, but Tigerland Archive has correct info]
Richmond's captain at start of that season was Charlie Ricketts, not Thomas
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/119685073

he had resigned by 15 May 1914
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/7250033

Barney Herbert took over as official captain
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/119685202

but resigned within weeks and was replaced by
Bill Thomas
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/119685343

1917 - Collingwood in error, captain at start of that season was Jock McHale, not Wilson
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/242677016

1923 - Collingwood in error, captain at start of that season was Percy Rowe, not Curtis
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/20629254

1940 - St Kilda in error, captain at start of that season was Ansell Clarke, not Lloyd
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206773113
 
Oliver Gigacz said:
I am gradually going through the spreadsheet and updating AF accordingly, will hopefully get through it this week. Just put in a couple of the new players today.

George Alfred McLeod (Serial 85) has been added and the other George McLeod has been amended.

https://australianfootball.com/Players/player/George McLeod/20446
Click to expand...
Has the split and details of the 2 McLeods been confirmed? I found some detailed investigation in previous pages, but I couldn't see any confirmation. Could there actually be 3 G McLeods?

Australian Football has the 1903 player alone, and the other player 1897, 1901-1902 and 1910-1913.

I agree that the dates of birth and death for the 1903 alone player matches Lt Col George A McLeod 1871-1921 - see death notice and war record, which has him as a 44/45 year old journalist from Colac when enrolling in 1915/16 (1903 player was from Colac). Departure tribute has no footy mention & no Tassie mention. The mentions of him travelling from Colac to St Kilda make the link fairly clear - unless there is an "Alex/Walter Johnston" style 2 players playing a few games each in the same season. Maybe the team photo was the 1902 McLeod, not the 1903 McLeod. Maybe 1902 McLeod played in Yea in 1903, then to Tassie in 1904?

Do we have any evidence that 1897 is also 1901-1902 McLeod other than not being explicitly described as a new player? Do we know for sure which St Kilda McLeod ended up in Tassie, then Essendon? The reference to playing for St Kilda "for a season" and "about 3 years" in the 1910 clearance story is strange (actually 7 or 8 years by then), and I can't find any other evidence he played in Yea.

Regarding the "W McLeod" mentions, looking for an alternative George W (or W George) McLeod in the Vic birth records, there is one born in 1883, that would match the 1902-1913 range, maybe 1901, but not 1897. There is also a William George in 1871, but that's unlikely to still be playing in 1913.
1883; reg #: 18065; Mcleod George William; father: William; mother:Lambden Lydia Jane; birth place:Melbourne​
{edit - ignore this, just checked the death records, this George William died at age 2}

Essendon's McLeod ended up at Brunswick in 1913 too. Still playing in 1915, which would be as a 36 year old if it's the 1879 birth.
 
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Oliver Gigacz said:
...
I have also added Tom Darcy (Serial 89) with Jim Darcy amended, however there seems to be conflicting reports on his DOB/DOD. Do we have a definitive DOB/DOB?
DOB: 1881 DOD: 29/12/1953 is the info I have.
https://australianfootball.com/players/player/Tom+Darcy/20445
Click to expand...
Confirmed from Steve Rodgers that Tom Darcy's details are
Full name: Thomas Darcy
Birth: 22 Feb 1881 at Toolamba, Victoria
Death: 29 Sep 1955 at Cheltenham, Victoria

Apologies - I got the DOD wrong in the spreadsheet so will update!!!

*Paul* - DOB is also missing at AFL Tables
 
ThePope said:
Has the split and details of the 2 McLeods been confirmed? I found some detailed investigation in previous pages, but I couldn't see any confirmation. Could there actually be 3 G McLeods?

Australian Football has the 1903 player alone, and the other player 1897, 1901-1902 and 1910-1913.

I agree that the dates of birth and death for the 1903 alone player matches Lt Col George A McLeod 1871-1921 - see death notice and war record, which has him as a 44/45 year old journalist from Colac when enrolling in 1915/16 (1903 player was from Colac). Departure tribute has no footy mention & no Tassie mention. The mentions of him travelling from Colac to St Kilda make the link fairly clear - unless there is an "Alex/Walter Johnston" style 2 players playing a few games each in the same season. Maybe the team photo was the 1902 McLeod, not the 1903 McLeod. Maybe 1902 McLeod played in Yea in 1903, then to Tassie in 1904?

Do we have any evidence that 1897 is also 1901-1902 McLeod other than not being explicitly described as a new player? Do we know for sure which St Kilda McLeod ended up in Tassie, then Essendon? The reference to playing for St Kilda "for a season" and "about 3 years" in the 1910 clearance story is strange (actually 7 or 8 years by then), and I can't find any other evidence he played in Yea.

Essendon's McLeod ended up at Brunswick in 1913 too. Still playing in 1915, which would be as a 36 year old if it's the 1879 birth.
Click to expand...
Very happy for this to be examined further but what has gone into AFL records is as per australianfootball.com changes - new player credited with games in 1903 only. That change was based on - as you said above - the mentions of him travelling from Colac to St Kilda making the link fairly clear.

The lack of subsequent references to Lt Col George A McLeod 1871-1921 having played football make it unlikely he played for a long period. Electoral rolls and the departure tribute indicate he did not spend multiple years interstate so in the absence of evidence to change anything further that was where it ended. Fully agree though that it is not 100% clear and absolutely would not be surprised if there was a need for further changes as more evidence is uncovered...
 
WhiteHartLane23 said:
Confirmed from Steve Rodgers that Tom Darcy's details are
Full name: Thomas Darcy
Birth: 22 Feb 1881 at Toolamba, Victoria
Death: 29 Sep 1955 at Cheltenham, Victoria

Apologies - I got the DOD wrong in the spreadsheet so will update!!!

*Paul* - DOB is also missing at AFL Tables
Click to expand...

Thanks for the update, this has been changed...

https://australianfootball.com/players/player/Tom+Darcy/20445

This is also makes him the 1,000th V/AFL player (for now).

WhiteHartLane23 said:
Very happy for this to be examined further but what has gone into AFL records is as per australianfootball.com changes - new player credited with games in 1903 only.
Click to expand...

If anything changes I'll update AF ASAP.
 
Barb Cullen has access Walter Johnston's war file (the new Richmond player)
It includes a photo of him . Not sure if we already have one of him in his older years.
Walter Johnston war pic.png
 
rbartlett said:
Barb Cullen has access Walter Johnston's war file (the new Richmond player)
It includes a photo of him . Not sure if we already have one of him in his older years.
View attachment 593417
Click to expand...


Here's one from Ancestry.

c65ab878-f485-4b5a-8758-e5bf439b78ea.jpg


Though I'm not sure which one has him looking older.
 

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Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

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