Luke Ball "Officially" Walks..

[HFF]

I'm disappointed that St Kilda will lose Luke Ball. A player of his ilk is a rare thing. He was one of my favourite players. A tough, courageous inside mid who got first hands on the ball or tackled the player who did. He is very clever, a natural leader and was at his best dishing the ball out through heavy traffic to clearance players from the guts. I wish him well in his future.

I hope he doesn't end up at Collingwood simply because they failed him once already by not offering up a suitable trade. Instead it seems they plotted for a way to get him cheaply (in terms of what they had to give up, not the money).

85% of all AFL fans would probably agree that if Collingwood end up drafting Luke Ball through the National Draft then this represents an unacceptable manipulation of the draft rules. It is much akin to what happened with Nick Stevens (which was thwarted by Port to Carlton's benefit). Why can't they simply pay a fair price for trades like every other club does?

Err, what?

Lets make it perfectly clear.

The Saints failed Luke Ball. He gave 8yrs of service to the Saints, only to be demoted to a fringe player.

He was well within his rights to seek a trade and the Saints did not fulfil his wishes.

Luke understands that the Pies did everything within reason to obtain his services which is why he has nominated for the National Draft in the hope of getting to them.

Unaccpetable manipulation of the rules? Pfft.

The look on many Saints fans faces if he gets to the Pies will be priceless.
Nobody but Rossy Lyon to blame on this one.

You all applauded his high almighty stance. Now you deal with it.

 

[morgoth]

You can take Goldsack out of the equation, we wouldn't have taken him, if we did he would have likely been delisted.

Ha ha yeah Raph Clarke is just sooooo much better. I would rather have Billy Morrison back than Raph Clarke.

 

[Gilbo19]

...whilst treating a club great and former captain like a piece of sh!t. Well done St. Kilda: all class.

you guys make me sick with the amount of backtracking, ridiculous comments made in the last month. So, is he good or not? is he in the best 22 or not? will the Saints premiership chance increase or decrease? is he worth pick 30 or nothing? Seriously, it changes per post according to you lot.

A club great? good good, where did you get that from?

I'm sure when I'm an 80 year old man I'll look back fondly to the days of old where I would watch, Robert Harvey, Tony Lockett, Nick Riewoldt, Nicky Winmar, Nathan Burke and the great Luke Ball.

I don't see how we're treating him like shit, he is the one that is walking out on us, we offered him a 3 year deal worth just under a million dollars in a side that is likely to make the top 4 again in the next two years,how many GOP's would turn that down?

As for whether he is good or not, it's not that black or white.

Is he in our best 22? yes, just. He is the 21st or 22nd player.

Will he increase or decrease our chances? In 2010 our chances have been decreased as Ball is currently better than David Armitage, however it is an almost insignificant difference which I would hope would be non-existent by 2011.

Is he good? of course he is, he was a number 2 draft pick, former captain, former all australian. However he is a limited player, he is a great extractor and tackler, however he provides no run. This is simply no good for us. Our game plan requires every player on the field be able to go both ways, both offensively and defensively, unfortunately for Luke Ball his lack of skill, run and kicking penetration have made him an expendable player for us.

As for Collingwood he could be a very good player as he addresses a key weakness.

List management is all about balance. For St Kilda he would be the second best tackler and extractor on our list, but he is about 22nd on the list for almost every other key factor related to our gameplan such as fitness, speed, skill and work rate.

At Collingwood he will clearly be the number one tackler and extractor, you guys can afford to carry a player like Luke Ball as his pros outweigh his cons.

 

[Falchoon]

Ha ha yeah Raph Clarke is just sooooo much better. I would rather have Billy Morrison back than Raph Clarke.

Didn't see the Prelim?

 

[mdc]

Goldsack had value to us before we acquired Lovett and Peake, that pushed Goldsack two players further behind on our list, therefore greatly diminshed his value. So whilst the offer was the same, the value was far lower on our end.

So you understand that it was a problem on your end, not ours, right? That's the point.

Also, as smiddazz poitned out, Lovett and Peake play completely different positions to Goldsack, and moreover Peake's presence is not greatly diminishing anyone's value.

Your interest in Goldsack, if ever genuine, would have been as a direct replacement for Raph Clarke...given running HBF is the only possie Goldsack's ever actually played.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

A smart club doesnt worry about other teams chances in trade week. Sixteen sides out there are potential premiership sides in the next 4-5 years.

A smart club should be looking at its own list and looking at the best way to improve it or the best way to compensate for players who choose to leave. They should not be too concerned about the list of the team they are potentially trading with.

Something is ALWAYS better than nothing.

 

[morgoth]

So to recap the trade period for St Kilda

Lost - Luke Ball, pick 2 in the superdraft - got nothing
Lost - X Clarke, pick 7?? - got pick 60
Lost - M McGuire - mid 20 pick?? - got nothing

Thats either bad drafting or bad trading. Take your pick.

 

[Optimax]

So to recap the trade period for St Kilda

Lost - Luke Ball, pick 2 in the superdraft - got nothing
Lost - X Clarke, pick 7?? - got pick 60
Lost - M McGuire - mid 20 pick?? - got nothing

Thats either bad drafting or bad trading. Take your pick.

Ross Lyon

 

[Mitchell Madness]

wow, so who got the best player from the 2001 draft WCE and STK fans?

 

[Gilbo19]

Ha ha yeah Raph Clarke is just sooooo much better. I would rather have Billy Morrison back than Raph Clarke.

I don't think there's much in it but I would probably rather Clarke.

Goldsack would have been either just in the team or just outside the team at the time we enquired about, however the acquisition of Lovett and Peake bumped him two positions down on the list, therefore he was nothing more than a depth player as opposed to a fringe player.

 

[morgoth]

Didn't see the Prelim?

No I didn't no real interest. I saw him in the GF, that was an awesome display as Burns helped turn the game but turning him inside out, over and over.

One of the biggest spuds in the AFL.

 

[Parallel Andy]

And you guys have been that successful in the last 50 years ..couldn't care less what happened 50-100 years ago... all those 12 grand final series since then shows is that you guys choke...

Ok let's look at the last 50 years then, as it is so important to you.

Premierships:
Collingwood = 1
Aints = 1

Wooden Spoons:
Collingwood = 2
Aints = 8

Average Ladder Position:
Collingwood = 6
Aints = 8

Wins:
Collingwood = 591
Aints = 432

Collingwood playing against the Aints:
Collingwood = 55
Aints = 31

Should I continue?

We can just concetrate on the last 20 years if you wish?

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Surely Luke Ball is the highest pick ever to be lost by a club for nothing?

 

[Gilbo19]

So you understand that it was a problem on your end, not ours, right? That's the point.

Also, as smiddazz poitned out, Lovett and Peake play completely different positions to Goldsack, and moreover Peake's presence is not greatly diminishing anyone's value.

Your interest in Goldsack, if ever genuine, would have been as a direct replacement for Raph Clarke...given running HBF is the only possie Goldsack's ever actually played.

We've got two positions HBF and WING but we only had one player that we wanted for those two positions, Goddard. So we needed to recruit either a winger or a HBF and Goddard would play the position that we didn't acquire.

I don't believe that Collingwood did anything wrong, If I was in Collingwood's position I wouldn't have offered much more than 30 and Goldsack either. But I don't think St Kilda should be expected to make a trade that doesn't improve our list whatsoever just because an ungreatful mercenary wants out.

 

[Disco_Stu]

Graham Polak, Pick 4.

Oh, no, actually, nevermind. Hodge wins.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

We've got two positions HBF and WING but we only had one player that we wanted for those two positions, Goddard. So we needed to recruit either a winger or a HBF and Goddard would play the position that we didn't acquire.

I don't believe that Collingwood did anything wrong, If I was in Collingwood's position I wouldn't have offered much more than 30 and Goldsack either. But I don't think St Kilda should be expected to make a trade that doesn't improve our list whatsoever just because an ungreatful mercenary wants out.

A trade ALWAYS improves your list if losing a player for nothing is the alternative.

 

[Gilbo19]

wow, so who got the best player from the 2001 draft WCE and STK fans?

Geelong 1 - Ablett
WCE/Carlton 2 - Judd
Geelong 3 - Bartel
Hawthorn 4 - Hodge

Nothing to do with Ball IMO...

 

[Gilbo19]

So to recap the trade period for St Kilda

Lost - Luke Ball, pick 2 in the superdraft - got nothing
Lost - X Clarke, pick 7?? - got pick 60
Lost - M McGuire - mid 20 pick?? - got nothing

Thats either bad drafting or bad trading. Take your pick.

Luke Ball - Was an AA player/ Captain, obviously not bad drafting. Terrible injuries cut him down to a GOP, lost him for nothing to avoid being shafted by Collingwood, not bad trading either.

X.Clarke, probably bad drafting, but that's easy to say in hindsight. Injury also cut him down. We traded him simply because he wasn't a part of our plans and rather than delist him we gave him a chance to go to the club of his choice.

M.Maguire - Great drafting, was one of the best young defenders in the comp before being absolutely crueled by devastating injuries... how many clubs would trade for a 25 year old who has lost all his speed due to unbelievable injuries and has barely played a game in three years...

Bad drafting? no
Bad trading? no
Bad management? yes

This all comes down to the clubs refusal to put in the money to acquire the resources required to prevent the sort of injuries that ruined these players careers.

This problem has now been rectified as we probably have the best (or one of) medical teams going around.

It is important to remember that Ball hasn't been elite for some time, and X and Maguire haven't been decent for even longer. No club could get anything decent out of the second two.
If we want to talk about bad trading what did you get for Rhyce Shaw?

 

[Pie eyed]

A club great? good good, where did you get that from?

I'm sure when I'm an 80 year old man I'll look back fondly to the days of old where I would watch, Robert Harvey, Tony Lockett, Nick Riewoldt, Nicky Winmar, Nathan Burke and the great Luke Ball.

I don't see how we're treating him like shit, he is the one that is walking out on us, we offered him a 3 year deal worth just under a million dollars in a side that is likely to make the top 4 again in the next two years,how many GOP's would turn that down?

As for whether he is good or not, it's not that black or white.

Is he in our best 22? yes, just. He is the 21st or 22nd player.

Will he increase or decrease our chances? In 2010 our chances have been decreased as Ball is currently better than David Armitage, however it is an almost insignificant difference which I would hope would be non-existent by 2011.

Is he good? of course he is, he was a number 2 draft pick, former captain, former all australian. However he is a limited player, he is a great extractor and tackler, however he provides no run. This is simply no good for us. Our game plan requires every player on the field be able to go both ways, both offensively and defensively, unfortunately for Luke Ball his lack of skill, run and kicking penetration have made him an expendable player for us.

As for Collingwood he could be a very good player as he addresses a key weakness.

List management is all about balance. For St Kilda he would be the second best tackler and extractor on our list, but he is about 22nd on the list for almost every other key factor related to our gameplan such as fitness, speed, skill and work rate.

At Collingwood he will clearly be the number one tackler and extractor, you guys can afford to carry a player like Luke Ball as his pros outweigh his cons.

You can twist the facts anyway you like but you cannot get away from this.
Lyon called on those who did not want to commit fully to put their hands up and they would be traded.
Ball did and was not.
If as you claim he was so limited in his importance to the Saints why the 3 year, good money, contract offer days before he tried to go to the Pies.
If again as you say he was so devalued did the Saints **** around when they knew it was what they could get, and not peanuts as you all retrospectively claim as this was what was asked originally, or **** all.

Then, after all this has occurred another, reduced, offer is put to Ball who rightly tells the Saints to sod off.
Then, humorously, your club releases a statement saying Ball was a required player and simply had to indicate his desire to return and his contract would be sorted out in due course.

Lyon played a game of poker and lost.
Ball asked to go. Lyon ****ed him and a potential trading partner around.
Ball took umbrage to being treated like a fool. Lyon tried to lure him back, twice unsuccessfully, and save face. Ball rightly, having witnessed Lyon's "integrity" first hand said "no deal Ross".
Ball enters the National Draft.
Lyon wants this all to go away right now please.

Who picks up Ball will never alter what went on at Saint Kilda between a coach and a player and the Clubs former Captain.
You can never spin that away no matter how many theories you conjure.

 

[Caj]

God I can't wait until the draft and Ball gets snaffled by another team before pick 30!!!!

 

[hawkstars]

Geelong 1 - Ablett
WCE/Carlton 2 - Judd
Geelong 3 - Bartel
Hawthorn 4 - Hodge

Nothing to do with Ball IMO...

I'd have bartel and hodge the other way.

 

[Wokko]

wow, so who got the best player from the 2001 draft WCE and STK fans?

1. Geelong: Gary Ablett
2. Collingwood: Dane Swan
3. Geelong: Jimmy Bartel
4. Saints: Nick Dal Santo

So Geelong by a mile.

 

[Zahki]

One thing is for sure, if Luke Ball ends up at Collingwood, Lyon will look pretty awful. For what it's worth, I think a second round pick was around about what Ball is worth and I think most people would agree. Good player, but with an injury cloud like he has hanging over his head I think it's a bit rich to ask for anything more.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

If we want to talk about bad trading what did you get for Rhyce Shaw?

Pick 46, Luke Rounds, did ok in his first year and has plenty of upside. Certainly more potential than Colm Begley who was the last guy drafted in 2008.

More to the point our backline improved with Rhyce out of the side. He played well for the Swans but still mangled his kicks when the pressure was on.

 

[morgoth]

Luke Ball - Was an AA player/ Captain, obviously not bad drafting. Terrible injuries cut him down to a GOP, lost him for nothing to avoid being shafted by Collingwood, not bad trading either.

X.Clarke, probably bad drafting, but that's easy to say in hindsight. Injury also cut him down. We traded him simply because he wasn't a part of our plans and rather than delist him we gave him a chance to go to the club of his choice.

M.Maguire - Great drafting, was one of the best young defenders in the comp before being absolutely crueled by devastating injuries... how many clubs would trade for a 25 year old who has lost all his speed due to unbelievable injuries and has barely played a game in three years...

Bad drafting? no
Bad trading? no
Bad management? yes

This all comes down to the clubs refusal to put in the money to acquire the resources required to prevent the sort of injuries that ruined these players careers.

This problem has now been rectified as we probably have the best (or one of) medical teams going around.

It is important to remember that Ball hasn't been elite for some time, and X and Maguire haven't been decent for even longer. No club could get anything decent out of the second two.
If we want to talk about bad trading what did you get for Rhyce Shaw?

Rhyce wanted out, wanted to go to Sydney so we let him go. He played some good footy at the Swans and good luck to him because it was not working for him at the Pies.

I see no problem with it, he was never going to be a good player at the pies and we got what his value was at the time. We got Medhurst as a set of steak knifes and he went on to be an AA. But at Freo he would have gone no where.

Players sometimes need a change to bring out their best, clubs should respect that. Your's did not despite making it clear he was no longer a priority player.