Luke Ball "Officially" Walks..

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Smart teams worry about their own lists and not other team's lists.

StKilda did not trade smart this year.

And the irony is that theres still a chance that Ball will end up at his club of choice.

 

[Gilbo19]

We are not going to get suckered into your inane scenarios, Gilbo.

Pick 30 and Goldsack is something.

Your ridiculous scenario is nothing.

Did you not see the list of names of players drafted recently at around the 30 mark?

StKilda have blown the chance to draft the next Dayne Beams or Kurt Tippett as well as a quality young running defender. It might not hurt the Saints this year or the next but eventually this decision will catch up with them.

Shallow draft mate, pick 30 this year is worth about 50 in an average year. The lower the draft pick the more risk is involved. Hell James Hird was taken at about pick 79, we should have traded Ball for pick 79 then shouldn't we, we would have got the next Hird by your logic.

There is nothing ridiculus about my scenario.

I am challenging the premise that something is always better than nothing.
You can't seem to separate that from the current Luke Ball situation, it's not the scenario that's ridiculus, it's your inability to comprehend basic english.

Go back on year and no St Kilda fan aliev would have even contemplated the possibility of trading Luke Ball for Goldsack and pick 30, just like at this stage no Collingwood supporter could imagine losing Pendlebury.

The fact is things change, people change.

Who would have thought that Chris Judd would walk out on WCE in 2005?

 

[Red Gum]

I feel St Kilda Supporters are being pretty hard on Luke.
...
The Selwood scenario is moot.
He is in our top 3-4 players and is perfectly happy at the Cats. Different scenario altogether.

I agree.

Sad to see Luke go. Very sad, but I think the club did what it needed to do. He knocked back our 3 year contract. We didn't trade in desperation. Obviously StKilda believed they coulc convince him to stay. He was repeatedly told he was a required player and was told only last week that he was in Lyon's best 22. He made his choice.

The Selwood point is an interesting one becuase 12 months ago the same you say here could have been said of Luke @ StKilda. He, Hayes and Riewoldt were the three used to advertise the 2009 memberships. He was a former captain, in the leadership group, and one of the faces of the club. That's what makes it such a remarkable turn-around.

 

[doppleganger]

LUKE BALL IS IRRELEVANT TO THIS HYPOTHETICAL!!

Scott Pendlebury wants out, he will not be playing for Collingwood ever again, he is only willing to go to one club, that club offers an absolutely insulting trade and is not willing to budge, do you take the steak knives or do you let him walk out?

You say that something is always better than nothing, by this logic you MUST accept the deal.

Pendlebury's playing abilities are not relevent as he will not be playing for Collingwood and the only club he is willing to accept a trade from offered nothing but steak knives...

So you're given a choice -
Do you want nothing or do you want Raph Clarke and pick 48?

Obviously you aren't capable of processing such a complex scenario so I will answer it for you. You would rather Pendles walk out for free. As you would be happy that your club took a stand and wouldn't be bullied. You would also turn your back on Pendlebury.

You should quit before you make a bigger fool of yourself!

There is no bullying, Collingwood offered market value for Ball.....ie pick 30 and a promising kid. The saints were not interested.

Market value for pendles would top 3 pick.....

how can you call market value nothing???? You say it yourself, Ball is a fringe player at best........pick 30 for a fringe player is bang on the money!!

As others have mentioned, plenty of gun players are picked around pick 30

 

[Hanis]

Nick Davies lied to all about staying with Collingwood, Played in a 2002 grand final and told the club he wanted to go to Syndey. Collingwood did the trade with Sydney. Syndey went on to win the 2005 flag.. We still got something for him .

Something is still better then nothing.

Not when it fills salary cap space with something you don't need then it becomes a waste (ie: Goldhack and pick 30 in a weak draft)

 

[Gilbo19]

Of course it has to do with comparisons. Is a fringe player worth a 2nd round pick and another fringe player, not the team's best player worth a spud + 3rd rounder.

So lets make the comparison a little bit more valid.

If Josh Fraser wanted out because Mick wasn't playing him now that Jolly and Wood are on board and he nominated St Kilda. St Kilda offered pick 31 (after losing another Grand Final) and Zac Dawson (fringe defender, potential). If it came down to 15 minutes to go and the Saints then say they'll trade up to pick 25 and still give Dawson then yes i'd take it. Also take the Pick 30 + Dawson (insert another spud if you think he's too good).

It has nothing to do with comparisons, don't you see that Luke Ball has nothing to do with my scenario.

Answer the question, Scott Pendlebury wants out. He has nominated St Kilda, it's Raph Clark and pick 48 or nothing for him, you're in charge, what do you pick?

Smart teams worry about their own lists and not other team's lists.

StKilda did not trade smart this year.

And the irony is that theres still a chance that Ball will end up at his club of choice.

There is more to consider than just your list, there is also your reputation.

Be shown to be a pushover and clubs will treat you accordingly.

St Kilda made a stance, to other clubs and their players.

To the other clubs we said we wont be screwed around.

To our players we said, don't respect the club and the club wont respect you.

Luke Ball may still end up at the club he wants, if so good luck to him. That doesn't change anything, because in trade week you don't have the benefit of hindsight.

Smart teams are always aware of their oppositions and will never give them a potential key to success without receiving adequate compensation.

 

[Gilbo19]

You should quit before you make a bigger fool of yourself!

There is no bullying, Collingwood offered market value for Ball.....ie pick 30 and a promising kid. The saints were not interested.

Market value for pendles would top 3 pick.....

how can you call market value nothing???? You say it yourself, Ball is a fringe player at best........pick 30 for a fringe player is bang on the money!!

As others have mentioned, plenty of gun players are picked around pick 30

Pick 30 in this draft is the equivalent to pick 50 in an average year, Goldsack is nothing to us as he is too far down the list to ever get a game.

So it came down to a gamble, give Ball to Collingwood for the equivelant of pick 50 and help them become contenders or send him to the draft where he has a 1/15 chance of becoming a pie.

You can't realise how simple this choice is because you are too emotionally involved, try to view it rationally for a second, put yourself in St Kilda's position.

As for Goldsack you might call him a promising defender, if he played for another team you'd be calling him a hack, every team thinks their youngsters are the next big things but from what I've seen of Goldsack he wouldn't be close to getting a game.

 

[doppleganger]

I am challenging the premise that something is always better than nothing.

You keep saying pick 30 and Goldsack is nothing, rubbish!!

You can't seem to separate that from the current Luke Ball situation, it's not the scenario that's ridiculus, it's your inability to comprehend basic english.

Your inability to realise market value is what is hilarious.

Who would have thought that Chris Judd would walk out on WCE in 2005?

west coast got mkt value for Judd, just like the pies would if a player wanted out......

 

[mdc]

St Kilda made a stance, to other clubs

St.Kilda's stance:
- Ask for Goldsack + 30
- Receive Goldsack + 30
- Decline Goldsack + 30
- Act insulted by the offer of Goldsack + 30

Helluva stance that. Especially when earlier in the thread you yourself admitted you wouldn't have offered any more than that for Ball.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

As others have mentioned, plenty of gun players are picked around pick 30

Even in shallow drafts.

 

[warrior_4]

You should quit before you make a bigger fool of yourself!

There is no bullying, Collingwood offered market value for Ball.....ie pick 30 and a promising kid. The saints were not interested.

Market value for pendles would top 3 pick.....

how can you call market value nothing???? You say it yourself, Ball is a fringe player at best........pick 30 for a fringe player is bang on the money!!

As others have mentioned, plenty of gun players are picked around pick 30

he is a fringe player at OUR club...at your he would be your no1 inside mid and probably be in your top dozen players overall....so you should actually pay the market value for whats he worth to you...we done this with lovett..we simply needed fast outside players and even thou his contract was running out we gave them our 1st rounder because that's how much he is worth to US...

 

[Gilbo19]

You keep saying pick 30 and Goldsack is nothing, rubbish!!


Your inability to realise market value is what is hilarious.



west coast got mkt value for Judd, just like the pies would if a player wanted out......

Pick 30 (eq. 50) and a player who would never get a game is rubbish to St Kilda, don't you see, everything is relative!! to us Goldsack became nothing after we acquired Lovett and Peake. Yes I know they don't play running back, but they allow Gram and Goddard to play the position without weakening our midfield significantly.

I am aware of market value, however in this case, it is better to get nothing than his market valye.

Judd wanted out, yes. Again you missed the point, I'm just saying things change, players occasionally want to leave their club.

And the fact is if a player wanted out and was only willing to go to one club you would only get market value if that club was willing to pay it.

You still haven't answered a simple question....

Raph Clark and pick 48 or let Pendles go into the PSD for nothing.

You are digging your hole deeper because you know you would rather let Pendles go for nothing than for a trade that improves your list in no way whatsoever, but it's too late in the day for you to admit you've been wrong all along.

 

[Coopster09]

Hopefully he will go at pick 26 to Essendon

 

[Hanis]

You keep saying pick 30 and Goldsack is nothing, rubbish!!

Yet you were prepared to give it up for a player crippled by OP and who can't kick over 30m

Pick 30 and Goldsack is nothing to the Saints - the salary cap space that it would have filled would be better kept clear for either another decent recruit or improving the contract of another up coming player from our strong squad

 

[Gilbo19]

St.Kilda's stance:
- Ask for Goldsack + 30
- Receive Goldsack + 30
- Decline Goldsack + 30
- Act insulted by the offer of Goldsack + 30

Helluva stance that. Especially when earlier in the thread you yourself admitted you wouldn't have offered any more than that for Ball.

Negotiation 1 -
Ask for Goldsack (to address a weakness) and pick 30
Collingwood Say No

Negotiation
Collingwood offer Goldsack and pick 30
St Kilda say no, Goldsack no longer addresses an area of weakness.

It's not the offer itself that's the problem. It's the fact that it no longer improves our list, it may improve Sandringham's list but not St Kilda's.

The most ridiculous aspect of this is that Collingwood supporters who are claiming that St Kilda should have done what is right by Ball can't even realise the bias involved, if the role was reversed and one of their players were wanted out and the club could only get a deal that wouldn't improve their list they would say no and let the player walk aswell...

 

[Embers]

Do Pies fans realise Goldsack has no valye at all, it detriments the deal. Id rather Chad Fletcher than Crapsack

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

There is more to consider than just your list, there is also your reputation.

Be shown to be a pushover and clubs will treat you accordingly.

St Kilda made a stance, to other clubs and their players.

To the other clubs we said we wont be screwed around.

What a load of bollocks.

The ONLY thing that matters in trade week is improving your list as best you can. And that means not letting players go for free - especially when the player is under a serious cloud as to his value - when a player and a pick have been offered as compensation.

Whatever you do in trade week (or dont do) has nothing to do with your reputation. Your reputation is build by how well you can get your players to perform.

 

[doppleganger]

You can't realise how simple this choice is because you are too emotionally involved, try to view it rationally for a second, put yourself in St Kilda's position.

St.Kilda's position

A player wants to leave, do we accept market value for him, or let him go for nothing??

Lets let him go for nothing.

Great trading sainters!

 

[Moo]

So what round is C'wood v St Kilda next year ...should be a fun board around that time.

You don't respect a Dual Premiership Coach who built his side from the ground up, nearly lost his job in the meantime but stuck to his guns to be proved right?
And you follow Fremantle?
Now I've seen everything!!

As much as I hate everything Geelong because of the GF heartbreak, I must admit that is an excellent point... it's hard to believe how anyone couldn't respect Bomber... building a list from scratch isn't as easy as it's made out to be on here, especially without any top 5 picks

Where did I say I don't respect him?

I was simply covering your comment that he has shown upmost respect to his players ...this is not actually 100% true and if you have any involvement at club level there you will know this.

 

[doppleganger]

Yet you were prepared to give it up for a player crippled by OP and who can't kick over 30m

Pick 30 and Goldsack is nothing to the Saints - the salary cap space that it would have filled would be better kept clear for either another decent recruit or improving the contract of another up coming player from our strong squad

???

salary cap space......you think Goldsack would been on big $$$???

you think you will get a better recruit with pick 60 odd than pick 30??

 

[Embers]

St.Kilda's position

A player wants to leave, do we accept market value for him, or let him go for nothing??

Lets let him go for nothing.

Great trading sainters!

They gain by not gettin list clogger Goldsack on there list IMO

 

[Xtreme]

I hope he is happy to be in Melbourne's team colours , i certainly wouldn't be

 

[Moo]

St.Kilda's position

A player wants to leave, do we accept market value for him, or let him go for nothing??

Lets let him go for nothing.

Great trading sainters!

If Ball goes anywhere other than Geelong, Doggies or C'wood - it is at least a break even scenario for them.

They threw out a trade deal in theory, you met it and they then decided it was worth more to them to try and keep him on their list. Unless they had given you a binding offer - get over it.

Even if Ball goes to C'wood and they basically get to keep Goldsack (30 still goes) ....it will come at a price nothing is free. Pay 800K to Ball - eats up cap room, makes other players think - gees well Ball got X at a time when GC are going to be swinging large amounts of cash.

 

[didak04]

They gain by not gettin list clogger Goldsack on there list IMO

Goldsack and 30 is what the Saints requested.

Now you can bang on about him being a "list clogger" all you wish but St Kilda obviously didn't think so.

P.S He would walk into your best 22

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

I hope he is happy to be in Melbourne's team colours , i certainly wouldn't be

Melbourne may well take him just so they can trade him to Collingwood the next season and make a profit.