Luke Hodge v Chris Judd

[MinerBoy]

Although Hodge is a two time NS winner, he's also stunk it up in this years prelim(just poor ball use), last years and the 2012 granny. Judds one of the best finals players I've ever seen.

It's chicken or the egg with hodge and hawthorn. He's seen so great because they're so good and a bit of why they're so good is because he's a great leader. No doubt in my mind though that his leadership would barely cover judds while Judds production eats hodges alive

Hodge was awarded votes in 2013 NS count (as well as winning 2008, 2014) and was in our best few in this year's PF and clearly our best in the first half when PA threatened to completely destroy us.

He also dominated all of 2008 finals (every match), dominated Adelaide in the 2007 elimination and has been in the best in numerous other finals, including 2013 QF v Sydney.

 

[Zgope1]

Hodge was awarded votes in 2013 NS count (as well as winning 2008, 2014) and was in our best few in this year's PF and clearly our best in the first half when PA threatened to completely destroy us.

He also dominated all of 2008 finals (every match), dominated Adelaide in the 2007 elimination and has been in the best in numerous other finals, including 2013 QF v Sydney.

I'm giving you all the good games you've mentioned but sorry he butchered the ball most of this years pf. Very stinky disposal that game. People will remember the smother though. Typical of his career for mine: a hero in the big moment that makes you forget about the week before or the year before or earlier in the game.

A champion nonetheless.

No comparing the two really though- the premiership tally logic is non scientific and therefore weak grounding for the hodge side. Judds better

 

[TN25]

Judd's best was better than Hodge's but Hodge has been a consistent performer. Is a better leader as well

 

[Monkey King]

You've come up with a hypothesis based on "if", when we actually have reality to observe.

Hang on. Mine was a response to an "if" statement that you yourself had made. "If you want someone to lead your team to Premiership success, you pick Hodge. If you want someone to have individual success, you pick Judd." This is not an observed reality. Observed reality says both have led their teams to premiership success. Observed reality says that Hodge lead this Hawthorn team to success. Reality says Judd led his WCE team to success and then achieved individual success in this Carlton team - to which I'd add helped lift them from perennial bottom dwellers to finalists. Observed reality says nothing about how they would perform outside these spheres. You introduced the hypothetical of a third party choice and then dismissed any logical examination of the concept. And ironically that fits the description of fantasy here more than anything else.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Hang on. Mine was a response to an "if" statement that you yourself had made. "If you want someone to lead your team to Premiership success, you pick Hodge. If you want someone to have individual success, you pick Judd." This is not an observed reality. Observed reality says both have led their teams to premiership success. Observed reality says that Hodge lead this Hawthorn team to success. Reality says Judd led his WCE team to success and then achieved individual success in this Carlton team - to which I'd add helped lift them from perennial bottom dwellers to finalists. Observed reality says nothing about how they would perform outside these spheres. You introduced the hypothetical of a third party choice and then dismissed any logical examination of the concept. And ironically that fits the description of fantasy here more than anything else.

Ok, you can tell yourself whatever you like.

If Chris Judd had of been drafted to Brisbane he would've been a 3 time premiership player. See, brilliant isn't it.

Fact is, he isn't though.

Hodge is, and he lead Hawthorn to those flags.

 

[Lethality]

Weird thing about Judd is that we didn't have years of commentators pretending he wasn't cooked when he started to decline in 2012. They jumped off him right away. Usually with champion players there's a few seasons of commentators pretending that they're still awesome when they're past it. Garry Lyon comes to mind.

 

[Monkey King]

Fact is, he isn't though.

Hodge is, and he lead Hawthorn to those flags.

Yes. Hodge is a 3 time premiership player with Hawthorn, twice as captain. That is all. Nothing more. Nothing less. Unless you're supplanting a whole team and coaching staff, what this means for another club is exactly nothing. So as long as you don't try to extrapolate beyond the facts and into this meaning something it doesn't, we have no problem. The minute you drift out of reality and into what that would mean for a hypothetical third party choice however, don't be upset if I jump in to apply a bit of logical reasoning to your fantasy.

 

[TazHawk15]

Judd's best was better than Hodge's but Hodge has been a consistent performer. Is a better leader as well

Yep.

 

[Monkey King]

Judd's best was better than Hodge's but Hodge has been a consistent performer. Is a better leader as well

I'd actually say Judd has been more consistent over his career than Hodge has. Hodge does seem to be an exceptional leader though looking from the outside.

 

[MinerBoy]

Judd has been the better player and every bit as consistent, probably more so. Hodge has just shown greater durability in the latter part of their careers. Likewise, Judd had greater luck with injury early on while hodge struggled with OP and as a result gave Judd a headstart in games played and in turn, reputation and performance.

Judd has been the better player, no doubt. But that isn't any poor reflection on hodge who will go down as an all time great of the hfc. Who the better player is also isn't necessarily relevant to the thread either.

Knowing what I know now and being given the chance to go back in time and select again, I'd still want Hawks to choose Hodge. Dare say every hawk would. Despite it being staggering to some, there would be quite a large amount of non Hawks who would too.

 

[Monkey King]

Just has been the better player and every bit as consistent, probably more so. Hodge has just shown greater durability in the latter part of their careers. Likewise, Judd had greater luck with injury early on while hodge struggled with OP and as a result gave Judd a headstart in games played and in turn, reputation and performance.

Judd has been the better player, no doubt. But that isn't any poor reflection on hodge who will go down as an all time great of the hfc. Who the better player is also isn't necessarily relevant to the thread either.

Knowing what I know now and being given the chance to go back in time and select again, I'd still want Hawks to choose Hodge. Dare say every hawk would. Despite it being staggering to some, there would be quite a large amount of non Hawks who would too.

Pretty well balanced post.

 

[hawkman]

Ranking them by seasons

02 Judd
03 Judd
04 Judd
05 Hodge
06 Judd
07 Hodge (Judd was at his peak of his career for the first 8 weeks but injury crippled his 2nd half of the season)
08 Hodge
09 Judd
10 Hodge
11 Judd
12 Judd
13 Hodge
14 Hodge

It's simplistic but i would have it as 7 seasons to 6 Judd's way. Obviously it doesn't take in to account there was a large gap between them for the first 3 years or the last 3 years due to injuries to both

 

[Monkey King]

Ranking them by seasons

02 Judd
03 Judd
04 Judd
05 Hodge
06 Judd
07 Hodge (Judd was at his peak of his career for the first 8 weeks but injury crippled his 2nd half of the season)
08 Hodge
09 Judd
10 Hodge
11 Judd
12 Judd
13 Hodge
14 Hodge

It's simplistic but i would have it as 7 seasons to 6 Judd's way. Obviously it doesn't take in to account there was a large gap between them for the first 3 years or the last 3 years due to injuries to both

Aside from a couple of arguable seasons in there, an analysis like this wouldn't take into account any grading of season; for example Hodge's 2014 would not be equal to Judd's 2006. It's an interesting exercise, but it doesn't tell us much.

 

[Schraderbrau]

Hodge has been excellent at playing across half back throughout his career but I doubt you could ever say at any stage of his career that he's cracked it as a top echelon midfielder in the class of Ablett or Judd. I think the school of thought that he couldn't hack it in the midfield with the best is not unreasonable which is why he's been played across half back in role which he's very good at but also much easier. In fact, as pure midfielders I'd take Burgoyne and Mitchell over him every day of the week.

The comparison to Judd is embarrassing and doesn't add up which is why Hawthorn posters and Judd haters are relying on stupid intangibles like "courage" and "leadership" to argue that Hodge>Judd. It seems people have forgotten that Judd was a premiership and NS winning captain at WC.

 

[Zgope1]

Hodge has been excellent at playing across half back throughout his career but I doubt you could ever say at any stage of his career that he's cracked it as a top echelon midfielder in the class of Ablett or Judd. I think the school of thought that he couldn't hack it in the midfield with the best is not unreasonable which is why he's been played across half back in role which he's very good at but also much easier. In fact, as pure midfielders I'd take Burgoyne and Mitchell over him every day of the week. The comparison to Judd is embarrassing.

Well said.

 

[sr36]

Hodge has an aura about him and has consistently lifted for big occasions. But frankly Mitchell is well above him - let alone Judd.

 

[HeHateMe]

As this argument drags out to its dieing breath (spaning an entire football career) you would have to say there both worthy top 3 picks, both greats of the game and we would all have to agree if hawks had a top 3 pick again we would pick hodge everytime. knowing what we know now, hawks could never go with anyone else.

We will never know if hodge went to another club would he become such a pivotal and inspiring leader, but we do know judd would of succeeded anywere.

This type of poll will always spark a debate between hawthorn and neutral partys, because there both right.

If any other club had pick one I would say go judd.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Hodge has been excellent at playing across half back throughout his career but I doubt you could ever say at any stage of his career that he's cracked it as a top echelon midfielder in the class of Ablett or Judd. I think the school of thought that he couldn't hack it in the midfield with the best is not unreasonable which is why he's been played across half back in role which he's very good at but also much easier. In fact, as pure midfielders I'd take Burgoyne and Mitchell over him every day of the week.

The comparison to Judd is embarrassing and doesn't add up which is why Hawthorn posters and Judd haters are relying on stupid intangibles like "courage" and "leadership" to argue that Hodge>Judd. It seems people have forgotten that Judd was a premiership and NS winning captain at WC.

Sigh....it's perfectly reasonable to prefer Judd but don't denigate a champion with such misinformation. Hodge's best football has come in the guts. He has an All Australian (captain of the side) where he was rightfully named at Centre. Easily his two best seasons were in 2010 and 2005, where he played solely in the midfield. We have already discussed 2010, where the coaches, players and media all agreed Hodge was the second best player in the competition (ahead of Ablett and Judd) as I demonstrated with evidence earlier in the thread. I don't know how you can be a top 2 player in the competition (and AA captain) playing solely as a midfielder and still have people say "can't hack it in the midfield". In fact, Hodge only moved to half back for any extent of time in his career in Round 17, 2008 (deep into his 7th season). Not because he wasn't a good midfielder (he'd won B&F's and AA's playing through the midfield already) but because Hawthorn had plenty of decent inside mids (Mitchell, Sewell, Lewis) but an average defense (Gilham was our fullback and Croad was the only capable key defender in a side gunning for a permiership). Our defensive frailties had seen us lose two in a row, fall three games behind Geelong and behind the Bulldogs. Clarkson chose our most versatile player to go back to see if he could change things. And did he ever. Hawthorn started winning again (by a lot) and Hodge was easily our best player. He was the best player in the competition through the finals and then delivered Hawthorn a premiership by putting his body on the line (8 spoils) and dominating the back half (7 rebounds, 26 disposals), forcing Geelong wide and seeing them lose a Grand Final despite winning the misfield. Hodge was Norm Smith medallist and AA HBF, so impressive was his seamless transition to turn Hawthorn's weakest area into a strength. Despite the fact he was a full time midfielder again just 18 months later (2010), Clarkson continued to use Hodge wherever he was most needed (Mitchell was used on the flanks in 2010 due to shoulder issues). Often our backline has been our weakest area so Hodge has played and excelled there. When we've had forwards out, Hodge has gone forward to great effect, with bags of 5 and 6 goals. He has remained, however, primarily a midfielder and his best football has been produced there (which as aforementioned is very much top echelon). Don't confuse his versatility and Hawthorn's need to use him elsewhere as a sign of "not being able to hack the midfield" where he is most accomplished.

 

[MinerBoy]

Sigh....it's perfectly reasonable to prefer Judd but don't denigate a champion with such misinformation. Hodge's best football has come in the guts. He has an All Australian (captain of the side) where he was rightfully named at Centre. Easily his two best seasons were in 2010 and 2005, where he played solely in the midfield. We have already discussed 2010, where the coaches, players and media all agreed Hodge was the second best player in the competition (ahead of Ablett and Judd) as I demonstrated with evidence earlier in the thread. I don't know how you can be a top 2 player in the competition (and AA captain) playing solely as a midfielder and still have people say "can't hack it in the midfield". In fact, Hodge only moved to half back for any extent of time in his career in Round 17, 2008 (deep into his 7th season). Not because he wasn't a good midfielder (he'd won B&F's and AA's playing through the midfield already) but because Hawthorn had plenty of decent inside mids (Mitchell, Sewell, Lewis) but an average defense (Gilham was our fullback and Croad was the only capable key defender in a side gunning for a permiership). Our defensive frailties had seen us lose two in a row, fall three games behind Geelong and behind the Bulldogs. Clarkson chose our most versatile player to go back to see if he could change things. And did he ever. Hawthorn started winning again (by a lot) and Hodge was easily our best player. He was the best player in the competition through the finals and then delivered Hawthorn a premiership by putting his body on the line (8 spoils) and dominating the back half (7 rebounds, 26 disposals), forcing Geelong wide and seeing them lose a Grand Final despite winning the misfield. Hodge was Norm Smith medallist and AA HBF, so impressive was his seamless transition to turn Hawthorn's weakest area into a strength. Despite the fact he was a full time midfielder again just 18 months later (2010), Clarkson continued to use Hodge wherever he was most needed (Mitchell was used on the flanks in 2010 due to shoulder issues). Often our backline has been our weakest area so Hodge has played and excelled there. When we've had forwards out, Hodge has gone forward to great effect, with bags of 5 and 6 goals. He has remained, however, primarily a midfielder and his best football has been produced there (which as aforementioned is very much top echelon). Don't confuse his versatility and Hawthorn's need to use him elsewhere as a sign of "not being able to hack the midfield" where he is most accomplished.

Quoting just because liking isn't it.

Perfect summation.

 

[TazHawk15]

Sigh....it's perfectly reasonable to prefer Judd but don't denigate a champion with such misinformation. Hodge's best football has come in the guts. He has an All Australian (captain of the side) where he was rightfully named at Centre. Easily his two best seasons were in 2010 and 2005, where he played solely in the midfield. We have already discussed 2010, where the coaches, players and media all agreed Hodge was the second best player in the competition (ahead of Ablett and Judd) as I demonstrated with evidence earlier in the thread. I don't know how you can be a top 2 player in the competition (and AA captain) playing solely as a midfielder and still have people say "can't hack it in the midfield". In fact, Hodge only moved to half back for any extent of time in his career in Round 17, 2008 (deep into his 7th season). Not because he wasn't a good midfielder (he'd won B&F's and AA's playing through the midfield already) but because Hawthorn had plenty of decent inside mids (Mitchell, Sewell, Lewis) but an average defense (Gilham was our fullback and Croad was the only capable key defender in a side gunning for a permiership). Our defensive frailties had seen us lose two in a row, fall three games behind Geelong and behind the Bulldogs. Clarkson chose our most versatile player to go back to see if he could change things. And did he ever. Hawthorn started winning again (by a lot) and Hodge was easily our best player. He was the best player in the competition through the finals and then delivered Hawthorn a premiership by putting his body on the line (8 spoils) and dominating the back half (7 rebounds, 26 disposals), forcing Geelong wide and seeing them lose a Grand Final despite winning the misfield. Hodge was Norm Smith medallist and AA HBF, so impressive was his seamless transition to turn Hawthorn's weakest area into a strength. Despite the fact he was a full time midfielder again just 18 months later (2010), Clarkson continued to use Hodge wherever he was most needed (Mitchell was used on the flanks in 2010 due to shoulder issues). Often our backline has been our weakest area so Hodge has played and excelled there. When we've had forwards out, Hodge has gone forward to great effect, with bags of 5 and 6 goals. He has remained, however, primarily a midfielder and his best football has been produced there (which as aforementioned is very much top echelon). Don't confuse his versatility and Hawthorn's need to use him elsewhere as a sign of "not being able to hack the midfield" where he is most accomplished.

Quoted for accuracy.

 

[Monkey King]

Don't confuse his versatility and Hawthorn's need to use him elsewhere as a sign of "not being able to hack the midfield" where he is most accomplished.

Honestly you've really waxed lyrical on this point. Hodge had one outstanding season in the middle when he was at his peak of his powers as far as age and what not goes. For the majority of his career though he's not cut the mustard in the most important part of the ground. And it's not like he hasn't been played there for all that time either. Don't want to denigrate him, but I've never heard a flanker position so talked up in my life.

 

[MinerBoy]

Honestly you've really waxed lyrical on this point. Hodge had one outstanding season in the middle when he was at his peak of his powers as far as age and what not goes. For the majority of his career though he's not cut the mustard in the most important part of the ground. And it's not like he hasn't been played there for all that time either. Don't want to denigrate him, but I've never heard a flanker position so talked up in my life.

Wow. And I suspect you think you know a thing or two about football.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Honestly you've really waxed lyrical on this point. Hodge had one outstanding season in the middle when he was at his peak of his powers as far as age and what not goes. For the majority of his career though he's not cut the mustard in the most important part of the ground. And it's not like he hasn't been played there for all that time either. Don't want to denigrate him, but I've never heard a flanker position so talked up in my life.

"Not cut the mustard"? Did you even read my post? In 2005, Hodge played predominantly in the midfield - only Scott West got more of the ball and only Anthony Koutoufides was more prolific in the clearances that season. Hodge was top 10 in the Brownlow, won the best and fairest and was All Australian. Hodge was 21 and enjoying his first season without OP. I wouldn't call that not cutting the mustard.

In 2007, Hodge had another great season in the midfield. He again finished high in the Brownlow and made the AA squad as a midfielder. He capped it off with a brilliant second half (despite injury) in the Elimination Final to engineer (with Buddy) a great finals comeback. Some of Hodge's most memorable performances came that season (playing in the midfield). 1 I remember was against the Bulldogs where he had 34 disposals, 10 inside 50's, 4 goal assists and kicked 6 goals himself. Another was against you mob where he had 29 disposals, 16 contested, 7 clearances, 7 tackles, 5 inside 50's, 3 goal assists and kicked 4 himself.

I could go on, highlighting more seasons and more games, but I don't want to 'wax lyrical' - clearly Hodge could 'cut the mustard' in the middle and anyone that says otherwise hasn't watched the Hawks as much as I have.

 

[TazHawk15]

Wow. And I suspect you think you know a thing or two about football.

Yep he does fancy himself.

FFS the dude is so biased he once tried to argue with me that Rod Ashman was better than Johnny Platten.

 

[blitzer]

Judd was actually the best player in the comp for a number of years and then he was probably second best for a couple as well. I don't think you can claim that Hodge was ever that good in any year. He clearly is a superior leader though and more versatile as well - has also proven to be better in terms of his twilight years as well. But still - Judd