Current Major incident at Bondi Junction

[Toump Ass]

...

Once you move interstate you need a new treating doctor, there's waiting lists, you're dealing with new medical staff who only know your history from notes. There was an interesting discussion on it on Reddit, people sharing their own experiences being medicated for schizophrenia and how the system kind of falls apart, the monitoring of your symptoms etc. if you move interstate.

 

[Toump Ass]

What are you advocating? Women step back and hope that non-violent men can sort it out?

Sounds like a great idea!
I'll tell my wife her role in educating her own children on respecting women is now redundant, I'm sure she'll be thrilled

 

[ms finch]

I've been waiting for an article like this to have his family elaborate on their understanding (right, wrong or incomplete) for more details of what happened with the Psychiatric management of his medication withdrawal and cessation.

It's a start for what is a very complex issue and a can of worms when it comes to Psychiatrics and Psychology/Psychologists (medications and the profession) the Mental Health System, Treatment, Tribunals and Orders, Relapse Risk Management, the wider health system, and the overlap and interactions with the Justice System and law enforcement.

Having family members willing to talk in public about it like this is I think quite rare.

And given that Cauchi is deceased, with what he did last week, the Coronial Inquiry, and that it appears that he was under "managed" Private Psychiatric care for a lengthy period, there's an opportunity for some of the worms in the can to get a bit more scrutiny than they might have otherwise.

However, there is also the risk that the event might lead to changes that don't reflect that the Bondi Junction incident was a once off, is extremely rare, and are in the opposite direction from where some of the changes to the NSW Mental Health System related issues (currently under review) were actually heading.

'A medication change
Michele and Andrew Cauchi said their son went off his mental health medication at about that time with the agreement and aid of his treating doctor.

Cauchi had been diagnosed with schizophrenia at the age of 17.

His mother said he had been under the care of doctors for 18 years.

Cauchi's family said he excelled at school and in 2012 graduated from the University of Southern Queensland with a Bachelor of Arts in international relations and culture and language.

'Mrs Cauchi said her son's doctor took him off his medication over a number of years, carefully warning him of what might happen.

"When he came off [the medication], it was like it had all lifted from him and he wanted to have a life," she said.
"After living at home until he was 35, he went to Brisbane, so he wasn't with his doctor anymore."

His father said it was a six-month trial with an option to recommence medication if needed.

"He didn't want anyone knowing he has got a mental illness," Mr Cauchi said.

"He was embarrassed when I said anything about it and he bolted off to Brisbane and he got a life."
...
"But he obviously was not in his right mind and he has been somehow triggered into a psychosis and he lost touch with reality.

"Anyone who has got a relative with mental illness will understand medication doesn't make you feel very well.

"There's a condition with a mental illness called anosognosia where the brain is damaged and it doesn't tell you you're sick. So if you don't know you're sick, why would you take medication?"

https://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/crime/loving-a-monster-bondi-stabber-dads-heartbreaking-admission/news-story/f3aee9d5b755ef0ea135172f0fac5879

'he was under the care of his doctors for something like 18 years, he was taking his medication well and then he asked the doctor to come down on (the dose).

“He did so over a period of years.”'

It struck me as well that the Cauchis are providing a lot of information publically where that doesn't usually happen. I appreciate it, but I also hope they're not being pressured in to speaking about this.

I too have concerns about knee jerk reactions to rare situations, but thankfully inquests are usually very comprehensive and detailed and Coroners are conservative in their recommendations. It's more government authorities that concern me because they are prone to reactions for political mileage. We will get more information with an inquest than we would with a criminal trial, at least.

Something that stood out to me in the commentary is that it was supposed to be a trial period of 6 months and that appears to be around the time Cauchi just disappeared and stopped engaging with his long term treating professional/s. Given that, his apparent dislike of the medication and his shame about his illness (which I find really sad, actually), it's possible to me that he ran away from his usual supports at that point to avoid having to go back on the medication. Part of what would need to be examined here is the degree to which medical professionals need to follow up and report in situations like that and whether CTOs need to be explored. Obviously I'm jumping the gun quite a bit here, but it does appear to be part of the overall picture.

However, something else that stood out to me is that this cessation of medication and abandonment of supports appeared to happen approximately 5 years ago when he was 35. There are questions to be asked about what happened over those 5 years and why it was all that time later that he subsequently committed such a significant violent act. I must admit that I expected to see a more recent cessation of medication. His life obviously descended quite a lot over that time, as his father notes that he informed them he was homeless in 2023 and came back home. But equally within that period there don't seem to be examples of violent behaviour and in fact he seemed to maintain his polite and decent personality. I think there is more to this than simply the cessation of his medication, although that could have sparked the chain of events that slowly led to this situation.

It is, as you say, extremely complex.

 

[dumb]

I’m up for any kind of thing that will reduce violence but - and I can only speak of my personal situation - framing it as a men’s issue doesn’t really leave me much to do.

No man I know has expressed any feelings about harming women. If they did I would be stepping in. As would,
I’m sure, most men that I know. If not all. If the topic of violence toward women is raised, I hear nothing but contempt and disgust from the men around me.

Perhaps I’ve lived a sheltered life? I guess it’s very possible.

So it’s up to men… ok, if that’s an effective approach, then I am ok with it because it’ll be worth it to get results.

But what do I do? What do any of us do?

Tell our sons not to be violent toward women? Of course - any responsible parent should be teaching children this from as young as they can comprehend it and may get into a tantrum / argument with another child over a bloody toy or something. No violence.

I don’t really get what the practical method is.

education is also a bit of a copout answer. it usually involves stuff like campaigns, tv ads, or pamphlets waiting to be picked up.
i wonder if you could make an argument for an earlier structural approach, school-based education around crime, consequences and punishment, legal/emotional ramifications, not to mention discussions around mental health, etc. this can be taught very generally to any gender and circumvents the worry about men being singled out.
we wouldn't need to go all ye olde education like bringing ethics and philosophy back, but our education system rightly or wrongly focusses heavily on practical career-based outcomes. i would think more education around the above, gives students good legs to stand on and in turn aids those practical career outcomes long-term.

 

[faible]

It struck me as well that the Cauchis are providing a lot of information publically where that doesn't usually happen. I appreciate it, but I also hope they're not being pressured in to speaking about this.

I too have concerns about knee jerk reactions to rare situations, but thankfully inquests are usually very comprehensive and detailed and Coroners are conservative in their recommendations. It's more government authorities that concern me because they are prone to reactions for political mileage. We will get more information with an inquest than we would with a criminal trial, at least.

Something that stood out to me in the commentary is that it was supposed to be a trial period of 6 months and that appears to be around the time Cauchi just disappeared and stopped engaging with his long term treating professional/s. Given that, his apparent dislike of the medication and his shame about his illness (which I find really sad, actually), it's possible to me that he ran away from his usual supports at that point to avoid having to go back on the medication. Part of what would need to be examined here is the degree to which medical professionals need to follow up and report in situations like that and whether CTOs need to be explored. Obviously I'm jumping the gun quite a bit here, but it does appear to be part of the overall picture.

However, something else that stood out to me is that this cessation of medication and abandonment of supports appeared to happen approximately 5 years ago when he was 35. There are questions to be asked about what happened over those 5 years and why it was all that time later that he subsequently committed such a significant violent act. I must admit that I expected to see a more recent cessation of medication. His life obviously descended quite a lot over that time, as his father notes that he informed them he was homeless in 2023 and came back home. But equally within that period there don't seem to be examples of violent behaviour and in fact he seemed to maintain his polite and decent personality. I think there is more to this than simply the cessation of his medication, although that could have sparked the chain of events that slowly led to this situation.

It is, as you say, extremely complex.

There's a quote from a girl he went on a date with as recently as 2022 that referred to him as 'sweet and kind'. Another referred to him 'having compulsions' and that it was a bit weird. Still a lot to find out.

https://www.news.com.au/national/queensland/crime/queenslanders-reveal-bondi-mass-murderer-joel-cauchis-troubled-past/news-story/225c8217cd5a5cb1e89da59f0782bdf4

 

[ms finch]

I'm not surprised given that poster's comments in this thread.

I really detest when people "play the mental health" card if there isn't a genuine issue, it's nothing short of disgraceful. But clearly this bloke had some severe issues, again it's not an excuse but clearly a contributing factor. If you ignore this you will never be a chance of figuring out why this happened and more importantly trying to prevent these situations in the future.

I think there is a distinction between asking what caused him to decide to attack people and who he decided to attack.

To me, while he may have targeted women in his attack, it may not be a hatred of women that prompted the attack in the first place. If it was a psychotic episode, addressing any misogyny component alone doesn't accomplish the prevention of future possible attacks, because it would simply mean that other people would have been the target.

The other issue to me is that it doesn't automatically follow that just because he targeted women this was inherently due to him being misogynistic. He may have fixated on women due to his schizophrenia or have some quite innocuous incident in his recent history that caused him to target women again due to the way schizophrenia works, none of which is a reflection of the reality of his non disordered thought processes when he is stable. I've heard some very strange comments from people with schizophrenia, none of which I would describe as their inherent personalities and which is actually demonstrative of a loss of a grip on reality not rationality. We also know that people with schizophrenia can hear voices ordering them to do things. Essentially I'm saying I am not sure you can separate any apparent misogyny from the schizophrenia itself and the impact it has on the brain.

To illustrate my point, what if a schizophrenic having a psychotic episode targeted people of a particular ethnic group because they appeared to them to be aliens? Would we call that person racist or would we just accept that this was not in keeping with reality and the illness talking rather than them?

To further illustrate my point, I would not be considering this from the same perspective if he had been diagnosed with depression or anxiety. Schizophrenia is an illness that has a particular impact on the brain and people's thought processes.

 

[Pamcake1]

Theres no doubt he targetted Women, however, didnt he also target a 9m baby prior to attacking the Mother?
Unless he looked at the babies gender first it wasnt a priority, he just chose the softer target first in that instance and followed up with the Mother.

Lets be honest here, if there was some pre-existing hatred of Women chances are there would be history of it in his past and we'd know about it from those sources by now.

The baby question has already been covered.
This is also 'the one small detail' used to make circumstances not fit 'exactly right' for the person thereby dismiss the big picture...this is the employment of 'plausable deniability'.

'The let's be honest here'....as soon as you see this qualifier...you know that it's not going to be honest...
...and there it is.. Bingo the denial.

Whether realised, intentional or not this is following the script as layed out earlier.

Around we go again.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

education is also a bit of a copout answer. it usually involves stuff like campaigns, tv ads, or pamphlets waiting to be picked up.
i wonder if you could make an argument for an earlier structural approach, school-based education around crime, consequences and punishment, legal/emotional ramifications, not to mention discussions around mental health, etc. this can be taught very generally to any gender and circumvents the worry about men being singled out.
we wouldn't need to go all ye olde education like bringing ethics and philosophy back, but our education system rightly or wrongly focusses heavily on practical career-based outcomes. i would think more education around the above, gives students good legs to stand on and in turn aids those practical career outcomes long-term.

Yeah there's a much wider conversation to be had around education. The current western structures aren't hugely relevant any more, they were built to service the industrial revolution and have only evolved from there.

They still hugely prioritise languages, maths and science at the expense of much else

They don't cater to the diversity of intelligence and creativity in children

On this topic they don't do much on emotional learning and growth and socialisation, which have been "at home" lessons taught by parents for the past 200 years. With the changes (breakups) in family units there is often a gap to be filled that education could assist with - more fathers are absent (family breakup), more mothers are much more absent (working rather than 100% focused on children).

Unfortunately education is run by government and so change will take decades upon decades upon decades, and still won't happen correctly. This is even more of a problem now as the elite who largely control government policy have now fully embraced the tactic of delaying any meaningful change on anything.

May you live in interesting times

 

[PenfoldsFan]

Lying about his age to date an only-just-18yo is appalling, and it's the only thing we know about so far. If he didn't explicitly hate women, he certainly didn't respect them.

The fact is he could have stabbed a bunch of randoms in the mall but almost all of them were women. Not sure how to describe that other than targeting - and harming - women.

As I said, soft targets.
Does he hate babies too?

It just so happens that in many cases Women are soft targets unfortunately.

lying about your age is one thing and yes it does suggest respect wasnt high on his list but im not sure it equates to hating women, more about ego.

 

[PenfoldsFan]

The baby question has already been covered.
This is also 'the one small detail' used to make circumstances not fit 'exactly right' for the person thereby dismiss the big picture...this is the employment of 'plausable deniability'.

'The let's be honest here'....as soon as you see this qualifier...you know that it's not going to be honest...
...and there it is.. Bingo the denial.

Whether realised, intentional or not this is following the script as layed out earlier.

Around we go again.

Well it looks like you've solved the case so we'll just be grateful for your wisdom then yeah.

 

[PenfoldsFan]

Watching the picnic of denialists herein.
Specious arguments about what the ideological motive is, blaming madness and exactly who's problem it should be.
Bottom lines: that it's not their problem, there is no problem, then I can't do anything about said problem you do it.

Around we go.

To summerise here;

The mental health defense:
If you’re going to keep claiming that “mental illness” causes men to go on killing sprees, you are going to need to explain why millions of people also diagnosed with the exact same “mental illnesses” never hurt a fly – and why there is not a single “mental illness” in the DSM/ICD disease and illness classifications listed as increasing the risk of committing mass murder."

The denial of Misogeny as an element;
Continually fail to acknowledge misogyny as an ideology.
MRA, Incels and other misogynist groups exist in various configurations and intentions.
Attack anyone who is perceived as a threat to shoring up beliefs held and do so by exploiting the personal, political, offensive humour, dissembling or any means possible.

Its not me It's you.
See above.
Personal affrontage is amongst one of the game plans in plausable deniability of ownership.

It's all too hard /I don't have an answer/ What's your answer then.
There is no definitive answer.
No one is expected to have a definitive answer.
Playing games by challenging any ventured answering.
Indications of ideological answers supplied by suspected ideological stakeholders.
Denial of, wilful ignorrence of or dismissal of facts and statistical data that doesn't prove ideological argument.

If all else fails repeat ad nauseum till boredom or hopelessness ensures, try the shout down technique, go for sneak personal attacks, isolate and pick one small detail to argue about and all the while derail any plausable or productive conversation about the problem.

Around we go.

The only thing going 'around' appears to be you, taking to task anyone who challenges your obvious belief that men who do shit stuff to Women simply hate all Women.

 

[Pamcake1]

Well it looks like you've solved the case so we'll just be grateful for your wisdom then yeah.

As pointed out earlier on how this works: this is the employment of personal diminishment attack as a tactic.

 

[Kurve]

Let's take a bit of a breather and cool the jets or see the thread descend in to bickering. Thanks.

 

[Kurve]

You have to go to quite a bit of effort to kill someone with a stab wound. Resistance will likely result in treatable wounds or cuts rather than fatal. Targeting women is likely a softer target by a weak individual than 'hating all women'

As someone said, if he was truly hateful of women he'd have left traces of it online we'd know about by now. He targeted the weaker

The Commissioner, detectives and his father specifically agreed that his targets were women. IMO there's no getting around it, he targeted women.

His father has given an explanation as to why. I think his father who was with him when he was diagnosed with schizophrenia and who lived with him until he was 35yo, would probably know better than anybody else.

I can see no reason why it has to be one or the other, was it misogyny or was it mental illness?

It's both. imo. We can't stop people from developing a mental illness, we're going to have more success if that seems almost impossible, tackling the misogyny.

 

[PenfoldsFan]

Let's take a bit of a breather and cool the jets or see the thread descend in to bickering. Thanks.

It only devolves into bickering when participants cant accept alternative opinions, and I say opinions because in the absence of difinitive evidence one way or another, thats all they are.

Even their unsubstanciated opinion, go figure.

 

[PenfoldsFan]

The Commissioner, detectives and his father specifically agreed that his targets were women. IMO there's no getting around it, he targeted women.

His father has given an explanation as to why. I think his father who was with him when he was diagnosed with schizophrenia and who lived with him until he was 35yo, would probably know better than anybody else.

I can see no reason why it has to be one or the other, was it misogyny or was it mental illness?

It's both. imo. We can't stop people from developing a mental illness, we're going to have more success if that seems almost impossible, tackling the misogyny.

I must have missed this, where did his Father label him a mysogynist specifically?

 

[jason_recliner]

We can't stop people from developing a mental illness, we're going to have more success if that seems almost impossible, tackling the misogyny.

Not sure about that. It's incredible what medical science has achieved so far and who knows what it will achieve for mental health in the future. Ingrained intergenerational misogyny? Short of a targeted sterilisation program (unlikely), I can't see a realistic solution

 

[jason_recliner]

I must have missed this, where did his Father label him a mysogynist specifically?

Why are you so doubtful a 40yo who lied about his age to date a 18yo, murdered 5 females, and stabbed a bunch more, is a misogynist?

 

[Kurve]

I must have missed this, where did his Father label him a mysogynist specifically?

He doesn't have to label his son as a misogynist, I doubt he even knows what the word means.

Cauchi's father without hesitation, on being asked why he thought his son had targeted women for murder said "Yes, he wants a girlfriend, he's frustrated out of his brain"

I don't want to judge his dad, he's obviously heartbroken but there also might be shades of misogyny in that response and indicating he grew up in it. His Dad's likely an old school misogynist.

 

[PenfoldsFan]

He doesn't have to label his son as a misogynist, I doubt he even knows what the word means.

Cauchi's father without hesitation, on being asked why he thought his son had targeted women for murder said "Yes, he wants a girlfriend, he's frustrated out of his brain"

I don't want to judge his dad, he's obviously heartbroken but there also might be shades of misogyny in that response and indicating he grew up in it. His Dad's likely an old school misogynist.

Lots of people want a life partner, im sure he's no different, he's shown he was desperate to engage with lots of different groups.
He didnt kill surfers because they didnt go surfing with him.
He didnt kill gun owners because they didnt take him shooting so why is it that he must have targetted Women because he couldnt find a partner?

 

[Kurve]

Lots of people want a life partner, im sure he's no different, he's shown he was desperate to engage with lots of different groups.
He didnt kill surfers because they didnt go surfing with him.
He didnt kill gun owners because they didnt take him shooting so why is it that he must have targetted Women because he couldnt find a partner?

His father has already answered that.

 

[PenfoldsFan]

Why are you so doubtful a 40yo who lied about his age to date a 18yo, murdered 5 females, and stabbed a bunch more, is a misogynist?

Because from the few Women who have come forward to share their experiences with him it appears as though he treated them with kindness.
The only negative was a reference to being impulsive but thats not necessarily a negative, just not something attractive to someone who has a more measured approach and from what the 18yo said, whilst he did lie about his age, she still maintained contact with him so there must have been something positive beyond that.

 

[PenfoldsFan]

His father has already answered that.

Show me the quote where his Father specifically states 'my Son killed Women because he couldnt get a girlfriend' not that it was just a source of frustration.

 

[Kurve]

Show me the quote where his Father specifically states 'my Son killed Women because he couldnt get a girlfriend' not that it was just a source of frustration.

The clip is in this thread, or you could try google.

This discussion isn't likely to be productive from here on so we probably should move on and wait until we get more information from the cops.

 

[Kurve]

Because from the few Women who have come forward to share their experiences with him it appears as though he treated them with kindness.
The only negative was a reference to being impulsive but thats not necessarily a negative, just not something attractive to someone who has a more measured approach and from what the 18yo said, whilst he did lie about his age, she still maintained contact with him so there must have been something positive beyond that.

You've been engaging on this board for a while and I know you know, that even the Claremont serial killer was kind to most women. Until he decided to kill them.

Ted Bundy also had many who simply refused to believe he was a serial killer of women.