Make or Break Seasons

Remove this Banner Ad

caseman2

All Australian
Mar 31, 2008
612
1,110
NYC
AFL Club
Hawthorn
I have identified 4 players who I believe are facing career defining seasons – make or break if you will.


Player 1 – Will Langford


Coming into his 6th season with the Hawks, Will has displayed he belongs at the top level and for evidence, look no further than his final 6 weeks of the 2014 season and in particular his 3 finals that year. But as we know in the AFL, you can’t afford to live on past glories and Will has dropped right off the pace the past 2 season whether it be through form or fitness.

We all accept his skills and in particular his disposal by foot needs work, however, with both Sammy and Jordie moving on, the opportunity presents itself for Will to once again cement a permanent spot in the side and become that influential player we have all witnessed. You can never question his commitment but decision making and disposal need to be his key areas of focus. With the 2 departures mentioned, if he is unable to solidify a spot in our best side, his time at the Hawks may come to an abrupt end. Personally however, I expect him to have a big pre-season and really hit the ground running in 2017 and become a solid contributor week in and week as we push for another finals series.



Player 2 – Tim O’Brien


A second round draft pick from 2012, TOB is entering his 5th season at the club. Whilst he has shown glimpses when given an opportunity in the seniors, he struggles terribly with consistency and staying involved in the game. The concern for me is when playing at Box Hill, it is yet to really dominate a game over 4 quarters which is what you want to see from a young KPP demanding a spot in the seniors. Gathering 10-12 possessions at the lower level isn’t going to cut it in the seniors. TOB has great athleticism, is a good set shot for goal and can both create a contest and take a grab – but he really needs to be involved for much longer periods of the game. And without stating the obvious, needs to put on some size. Whereas I am bullish about Will, I have nowhere near as much confidence in Tim as the glimpses he has shown have been too few and far apart. In saying that, with Rough due to miss the first part of the season, there is certainly an opportunity there for the talking if he really wants it.


Player 3 – Jonathan O’Rourke


Having been drafted at No 2 in the same 2012 draft as TOB, JOR has certainly failed to live up to his lofty billing both at the Giants and in his time with us and the clock is quickly ticking. For me, the frustration with JOR is whenever he wins possession his first option is to look for a handball. When he was drafted his bio noted the he had speed to break away from stoppages and possessed his pin point field kicking. If these are his attributes, why isn’t he using them?? It’s great to look to dish of the handball and bring team mates into the game, but why not use your pace and use your kicking skills to break play open? In his limited appearances, he also needs to find a way to win more of the ball as being a midfielder at AFL level winning 13-15 possession is not going to cut it.

I know he has had some injuries but again, with 2 stalwarts in Mitchell and Lewis moving on and our lack of depth in the midfield highlighted during this season’s final series, improvement from a player such as JOR is critical to our future success. JOR – your time is NOW!


Player 4 – Dallas Willsmore


A rookie selection in 2017 Dallas enters his 3rd year on the list and 2nd on the senior list after his upgrading. While a touch slow, Dallas has the physical attributes to make it at senior level, height, size, good hands and a lovely left peg. The knock on him for mind, is his lack of physicality.

He started last season at Box Hill on fire playing off the half back line and regularly gather 25-30 touches with a high efficiency rating. While his form dropped off in the 2nd half of the year, the concern for me why we he couldn’t get a game when he was in form and we had an extensive injury list at the time? What were the coaches demanding of him that he wasn’t delivering? With another pre-season under his belt and spots up for grabs, Dallas needs to take every opportunity that comes his way to show he deserves his place on the list and finally make his senior debut. I hope this is a Suckers situation repeating itself – if you remember we had him on the rookie list for 3 years before upgrading him and him making his debut and then went on to become a 2 time premiership player. A lot of similarities in terms of how they both play.
 

Log in to remove this ad.

I think Jono, Langford and O'Brien will be given till the end of 2018 to prove themselves. Though i do believe TOB is atm a good depth player that can play back and fwd and depth is always great to have especially at Key Position. Jono and Langers still have time as their are still senior players really keeping them out and once they are gone at the end of the year thats when 2018 is make or break, plus we brought in Jaeger and T-Mitch. I believe we can't afford to get rid of these two when we have the retirements.

Agree that Willsmore is in a make or break season, first year players coming in and playing roles some which play a role just like him, which would be unsettling for him. But for me thats it.

Make or break season is 2018. When Hodge, Gibbo, Burgoyne are gone. Then at the end of 2018 how will Bigboy and Birchall be holding up thats when spots become available and who knows what happens with free agency
 
I think Jono, Langford and O'Brien will be given till the end of 2018 to prove themselves. Though i do believe TOB is atm a good depth player that can play back and fwd and depth is always great to have especially at Key Position. Jono and Langers still have time as their are still senior players really keeping them out and once they are gone at the end of the year thats when 2018 is make or break, plus we brought in Jaeger and T-Mitch. I believe we can't afford to get rid of these two when we have the retirements.

Agree that Willsmore is in a make or break season, first year players coming in and playing roles some which play a role just like him, which would be unsettling for him. But for me thats it.

Make or break season is 2018. When Hodge, Gibbo, Burgoyne are gone. Then at the end of 2018 how will Bigboy and Birchall be holding up thats when spots become available and who knows what happens with free agency
Agree partly here - Hodge and Burgoyne could be replaced by Langers and JOR but at this stage that's 2 million steps down in class and we might throw cash at a couple of FAs for 2018. I reckon the pressure is on and one or both might not last beyond 17 if

(a) they don't improve
(b) we get FA mids
(c) younger mids go past them or even equal them

I reckon, though, that they will respond to this pressure well and have good 2017s.

I agree re TOB. Reckon we will stick it out with him for longer - KPFs take longer etc
 
Agree partly here - Hodge and Burgoyne could be replaced by Langers and JOR but at this stage that's 2 million steps down in class and we might throw cash at a couple of FAs for 2018. I reckon the pressure is on and one or both might not last beyond 17 if

(a) they don't improve
(b) we get FA mids
(c) younger mids go past them or even equal them

I reckon, though, that they will respond to this pressure well and have good 2017s.

I agree re TOB. Reckon we will stick it out with him for longer - KPFs take longer etc

Yeah can see your point, burton coming straight in hasn't helped them either, but shows that spots are available and can be kept. When you look at the best 22 from last season and you take away the players gone or not best 22 anymore and questionable. You see there are still a lot to come in but not enough spots.

Ben Stratton, James Frawley, Shaun Burgoyne
Luke Hodge, Josh Gibson, Grant Birchall

Isaac Smith, Sam Mitchell, Bradley Hill

Luke Breust, Jack Gunston, Cyril Rioli
Paul Puopolo, Jack Fitzpatrick, Ryan Schoenmakers (?)

Ben McEvoy, Jordan Lewis, Liam Shiels

Taylor Duryea, Ryan Burton, Brendan Whitecross, James Sicily

PLAYERS TO COME IN: Tyrone Vickery, Tom Mitchell, Jaeger O'Meara, Jarryd Roughead (?), Jono O'Rouke, Billy Hartung, Will Langford, Kaiden Brand, Tim O'Brien and Daniel Howe are probably the ones who are next in line. Then your few game players such as Teia Miles, Kade Stewart, Kieran Lovell, Blake Hardwick and Marc Pittonet.
What players would you pick to come in?

Best 22: 2017
Ben Stratton, James Frawley, Shaun Burgoyne
Luke Hodge, Josh Gibson, Grant Birchall

Isaac Smith,Tom Mitchell, Billy Hartung

Luke Breust, Jack Gunston, Cyril Rioli
Paul Puopolo, Tyrone Vickery , Jarryd Roughead (?)

Ben McEvoy, Jaeger O'Meara, Liam Shiels

Taylor Duryea, Ryan Burton, Brendan Whitecross, James Sicily
 
Yeah can see your point, burton coming straight in hasn't helped them either, but shows that spots are available and can be kept. When you look at the best 22 from last season and you take away the players gone or not best 22 anymore and questionable. You see there are still a lot to come in but not enough spots.

Ben Stratton, James Frawley, Shaun Burgoyne
Luke Hodge, Josh Gibson, Grant Birchall

Isaac Smith, Sam Mitchell, Bradley Hill

Luke Breust, Jack Gunston, Cyril Rioli
Paul Puopolo, Jack Fitzpatrick, Ryan Schoenmakers (?)

Ben McEvoy, Jordan Lewis, Liam Shiels

Taylor Duryea, Ryan Burton, Brendan Whitecross, James Sicily

PLAYERS TO COME IN: Tyrone Vickery, Tom Mitchell, Jaeger O'Meara, Jarryd Roughead (?), Jono O'Rouke, Billy Hartung, Will Langford, Kaiden Brand, Tim O'Brien and Daniel Howe are probably the ones who are next in line. Then your few game players such as Teia Miles, Kade Stewart, Kieran Lovell, Blake Hardwick and Marc Pittonet.
What players would you pick to come in?

Best 22: 2017
Ben Stratton, James Frawley, Shaun Burgoyne
Luke Hodge, Josh Gibson, Grant Birchall

Isaac Smith,Tom Mitchell, Billy Hartung

Luke Breust, Jack Gunston, Cyril Rioli
Paul Puopolo, Tyrone Vickery , Jarryd Roughead (?)

Ben McEvoy, Jaeger O'Meara, Liam Shiels

Taylor Duryea, Ryan Burton, Brendan Whitecross, James Sicily

The fact you have none of the 4 discussed players in your best 22 shows exactly where their careers are at. As per your previous post referencing 2018 that is ridiculous. These players should not be waiting on retirements to become regular senior players in 2018 because you can bet your life on it that Clarko won't be as accepting. i understand patience is often required and am supportive of that however, a line still needs to be drawn. We are not talking about blokes that are 200cm +. These guys have now been around long enough to be forcing their way into the seniors NOW - not 2018! How many players these days spend 6 or 7 years in the seconds before becoming good, solid senior players? Very very few - and they become known as list cloggers. Do a historical analysis of a club's list such as Richmond for example and have been were chock full of list cloggers - and our administration and list management teams will NEVER allow that!
 
Last edited:
The fact you have none of the 4 discussed players in your best 22 shows exactly where their careers are at. As per your previous post referencing 2018 that is ridiculous. These players should not be waiting on retirements to become regular senior players in 2018 because you can bet your life on it that Clarko won't be as accepting. i understand patience is often required and am supportive of that however, a line still needs to be drawn. We are not talking about blokes that are 200cm +. These guys have now been around long enough to be forcing their way into the seniors NOW - not 2018! How many players these days spend 6 or 7 years in the seconds before becoming good, solid senior players? Very very few - and they become known as list cloggers. Do a historical analysis of a club's list such as Richmond for example and have been were chock full of list cloggers - and our administration and list management teams will NEVER allow that!
I think you are forgetting that some of these players still have not had the chance of consistent footy because of the team that they have played in and the players that we have brought in. Jono and Langers are right in the mix, not mistake that at all and who knows what form will be like next year or injuries. Jono still hasn't got the games under his belt yet and when he did play he looked good, he just needs more chances in the gut. Patience is KEY. These guys will come along, if O'Meara isn't ready for round one I'm expecting to see jono in that team if fit, also who knows what clarko will come up with next.
Geelong are a perfect team that shows that time in the vfl helps tremendously. Mackie is one that spent a long time in the vfl and look at what he became. Cmon now.
 
I think you are forgetting that some of these players still have not had the chance of consistent footy because of the team that they have played in and the players that we have brought in. Jono and Langers are right in the mix, not mistake that at all and who knows what form will be like next year or injuries. Jono still hasn't got the games under his belt yet and when he did play he looked good, he just needs more chances in the gut. Patience is KEY. These guys will come along, if O'Meara isn't ready for round one I'm expecting to see jono in that team if fit, also who knows what clarko will come up with next.
Geelong are a perfect team that shows that time in the vfl helps tremendously. Mackie is one that spent a long time in the vfl and look at what he became. Cmon now.
Without being smart what do you consider a long time? if going by your original post and talking about becoming regulars in 2018 after retirements, that will mean Langers will be entering his 7th seson on the list and TOB his 6th - and if you are using Mackie as your benchmark for patience, I guarantee you he spent no where near that long plying his trade in the 2's.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a big proponent of patience, but you need to have a clear distinction between patience and "list clogger".
A prime example from a Hawthorn standpoint is Luke Lowden - wonderful bloke, great clubman and we showed patience with him for 6 seasons - yes 6 - before trading him to Adelaide where he played a further 2 season - how many games of AFL did he play in 8 seasons? A grand total of 1
Yes, I realise this is an extreme example and we are talking about a ruckman, but patience can be over done and you need to be impartial in your assesments and know when to cut the cord.
 
It is a huge make or break year for Hartung. There is no Brad Hill in front of him now. If he wants to cement a spot in our best 22, this is his year. He's shown glimpses in the past but this year he has to step up and show that he isn't just a passenger in this side.
 
Without being smart what do you consider a long time? if going by your original post and talking about becoming regulars in 2018 after retirements, that will mean Langers will be entering his 7th seson on the list and TOB his 6th - and if you are using Mackie as your benchmark for patience, I guarantee you he spent no where near that long plying his trade in the 2's.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a big proponent of patience, but you need to have a clear distinction between patience and "list clogger".
A prime example from a Hawthorn standpoint is Luke Lowden - wonderful bloke, great clubman and we showed patience with him for 6 seasons - yes 6 - before trading him to Adelaide where he played a further 2 season - how many games of AFL did he play in 8 seasons? A grand total of 1
Yes, I realise this is an extreme example and we are talking about a ruckman, but patience can be over done and you need to be impartial in your assesments and know when to cut the cord.
Langford- riddled by injuries in pre-season and didn't seem to come back from them. But in the last 3 years has been in the team more than half the season which for me is good enough. http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pc-hawthorn-hawks--william-langford
O'Rouke- Again riddled by injuries, started in the team at the start of the season did his hammy and couldn't break back in because by the time he was playing vfl and getting back to fitness it was too late. Has also only played 18 games due to all his injuries so he cannot be judged yet until the 50 mark, stats look alright. http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pc-hawthorn-hawks--jonathan-o-rourke
O'Brien- I thought he showed some really good signs this year, might i say i think he looked more comfortable down back in my opinion. He is a key tall and just about 23 so still has development and potential. Played quite a lot of games this year. Hope to see him get a few more games in if roughy doesn't come back. http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pc-hawthorn-hawks--tim-o-brien

TBH i never rated Lowden so yeah I'm not going to go much further with that and the same with Grimley.

Being stuck in the vfl because of great team doesn't mean your not good enough for afl, it means competition for a starting 22 is strong which is what hawthorn is about. Having players in the vfl vying for an afl spot which then makes the players already in the team work harder to keep their spot. I think you will find most hawk players are not list cloggers like you make it seem, its more there is good competition at the club and they are being kept out by better players. Simple. Thats how the dogs won......side that had players competing for spots who were in the vfl and came in and played in a winning team......
 
Agree with the three you have identified and would also include Miles, who would want to see some game time in 2017.

Langford and O'Rourke remain the two most disappointing players on our list. Each have attributes that suggest they could make it as decent AFL midfielders but both are held back by major flaws that I think will prevent them ever achieving that. In Langford's case, his decision making (both with the ball and his inability to follow team rules) and his disposal really hurt him. In O'Rourke's case, he is lazy and lacks confidence to take the game on. If we can get one of them to become a long-term decent AFL player i'd be happy.
 
The more I see of O'Rourke, the more I worry. As others have mentioned in a different thread, he's just so vanilla. One last hope this year that playing him in the guts with Mitchell and Lewis gone will unlock some performance that we just haven't seen yet. Otherwise I think he's a goner. Amazing a no.2 pick doesn't have any stand out abilities.

Langford at least has some ability along with a lot of flaws. Hopefully he can get a bit of confidence and improve his calm & decision making. That will improve his disposal but it will never be top class. On the other hand, continuing headless chook impersonations will move him out the door.

O'Brien has talent, but is undersized, unless he can put on a lot of muscle he won't make it long term. At 23 already with seemingly a wiry frame, he needs to find a lot more of something in order to make it, a big surge of strength or athleticism or aggression or height. The only game he stood out at AFL level was in our thrashing of Essendon against undersized defenders, he won't be getting that at AFL level too often. He might get a couple more years due to our very weak KP stocks. Best hope is a move to the backline might unearth something.

Willsmore, not sure why he was ever raised to senior ranks to be honest, I only get to see 1 or 2 games at Boxhill on tv each year but he never impressed AFL ability wise. Slow, tall but lacking strength, no freakish endurance, no outstanding agility, a good kick but never struck me as an amazing one. A taller, leaner, slower, poorer/shorter kicking version of Suckling. We took Suckers at AFL level because of his wonderful kicking, Willsmore doesn't have that. Nor does he have the run to play on the wing.

Miles: Watched him at Boxhill, definitely a footballer but a short one. If he was 183 cm he'd be playing AFL or about to debut with a reasonable career ahead of him. As a shorty, he has to be pushing his way in into the seniors or he will be moving on soon. I don't think he will make it.

A bit tough, but a collection of late 2nd, 3rd, 4th & rookie picks aren't going to produce a lot of top players.

I have been a little disappointed in our rookie list's productivity recently, we produced a few gems there for a while but it seems to have dried up.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Agree with the three you have identified and would also include Miles, who would want to see some game time in 2017.

In Miles' favour he has a two year contract to 2018 so doesn't necessary have to put it on the board in 2017 if we aren't interested in tearing up his contract.
 
Langers, Hartung and Brand must stamp themselves as AFL quality. All three need to be legitimate starting 22ers. If they cant do it next year move em on.

TO needs to be better than Schoe, Gibbo or Brand. Miles needs to be better than Doc. Willsmore needs to be better than Billy. JOR needs to be better than Langers. Hard to see those things happening.

Burton can see him playing multiple roles. Pito could surpass BB. Lovell should go past Billy.
 
I think you are forgetting that some of these players still have not had the chance of consistent footy because of the team that they have played in and the players that we have brought in. Jono and Langers are right in the mix, not mistake that at all and who knows what form will be like next year or injuries. Jono still hasn't got the games under his belt yet and when he did play he looked good, he just needs more chances in the gut. Patience is KEY. These guys will come along, if O'Meara isn't ready for round one I'm expecting to see jono in that team if fit, also who knows what clarko will come up with next.
Geelong are a perfect team that shows that time in the vfl helps tremendously. Mackie is one that spent a long time in the vfl and look at what he became. Cmon now.
 
I find Tim an interesting one. Maybe where he is at is about right, relative to selection and expectations? I know we don't really want to settle for mediocre but at the same time have to be realistic.
 
Langford is a list clogger and so is Hartung. O'Rourke is too, I thought he'd be good but I'm happy to admit I have been wring about him so far. Think he has more talent than the other two, seems a mental thing with him. Billy is just soft, not AFL standard IMO. TOB I think can swing to the backline and is handy depth as others have mentioned.
 

Remove this Banner Ad

Make or Break Seasons

Remove this Banner Ad

Back
Top