Malthouse V Buckley

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Shouldnt have Malthouse blooded Dawes and N Brown (Rusling wasnt even an option) up forward during the year more than he did? .

Dawes maybe, Brown no. Brown got injured early and struggled for form after that.

But its not to say youngsters didnt get a go in Malthouse's 22. They had plenty of opportunity. Plenty.
 
Question for you and answer it honestly.

Obviously if you were in charge you'd have delisted Rocca at the start of 2009 - if not before, for the reasons you stated above - he only played 31 games in the previous two seasons. And with hindsight you'd be right, albeit that we had a very young list anyway and could afford to carry one veteran.

But using the same theory would you have also delisted Simon Prestigiacomo? After all he only played 16 games in the previous two years, thats half the games Rocca managed for a player of the same age with similar if not more deficiencies in his game.

I will be honest here and you can probably find it archived anyway.

At the end of 2008 I said delist Rocca because he was injury and suspension prone and I said delist presti because he was injury riddled at the time and also it was time to blood the next generation. Presti had a great H&A season and a poor finals. I still want him this year, but if we are to be looking genuinely 2 years down the track, we probably should have gotten rid of him too, just to bring on that generational change.

I might get criticised for saying delist presti last year, but in the end, his finals series tells me that when we need him the most he is not up to it anymore and that was against not the highest calibre of players either. Some times you just have to make long term decisions. Same for O'bree too, he really is holding back someone else, he will never win you a flag, but he will get you thru the winter months. But dont we need something more than just plodders?
 
Dawes maybe, Brown no. Brown got injured early and struggled for form after that.

But its not to say youngsters didnt get a go in Malthouse's 22. They had plenty of opportunity. Plenty.
Dawes never gets a solid run for weeks on end, he is also caught in no mans land in terms of playing style. Is he a crash and bash or is a lead up forward, malthouse has him playing a lead up role and i am not sure that suits him and I think he suffers as a result.
 

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I will be honest here and you can probably find it archived anyway.

At the end of 2008 I said delist Rocca because he was injury and suspension prone and I said delist presti because he was injury riddled at the time and also it was time to blood the next generation.

Thanks for your honesty. You got one right and you got one wrong. We would not have even made the finals without the near AA season from Presti. He was the best man for the job, not just in the home and away but also in the finals.

List management isnt as easy as you think.
 
Dawes never gets a solid run for weeks on end, he is also caught in no mans land in terms of playing style. Is he a crash and bash or is a lead up forward, malthouse has him playing a lead up role and i am not sure that suits him and I think he suffers as a result.

He's 20 years old. He will get his opportunities in due course. I agree I'd have liked to have seen more games from him last year - along with Wood, N Brown, Reid, Dick, McCarthy, Macaffer, Marty Clarke, etc etc, but you cant select everybody. Especially so when you are winning.

As to style of game, meh, modern footballers need to be adaptable these days. If the only spot for Dawes in the side is as a lead-up, then thats the style he'll need to learn to play until he earns his best position and makes it his own. Its good and proper player development to ensure your players are as versatile as possible.
 
Thanks for your honesty. You got one right and you got one wrong. We would not have even made the finals without the near AA season from Presti. He was the best man for the job, not just in the home and away but also in the finals.

List management isnt as easy as you think.
Actually I got one and a half right, presti let us down at the pointy end, when it mattered most and in spite of his season and past record, he was never going to really get better and long term he is still holding out the development of someone younger.

you really need to look at what realistic chance you are year by year when determining the fates of your presti's and Roccas. if we were a serious chance last year, then yes keep them, but we never were in the class of geelong or St kilda and if hawthorn had been right, then it would have been 3 sides that would beat us each and every time, including finals. So NO, we were not a realistic chance last year and should have pruned the list of the old wood with the hope of bringing on some younger blood for when we are a real chance maye 1 to 2 years on. Now thats looking at list management with the view to the future and realising exactly where you stand in the scheme of things
 
about 5 years now, so after 2004 you thought he should have been out?

really? one season out from back to back to GF's you thought he should have been pushed?

gosh.
Since you ask I will pin point it. After the Freo game in 2005 when the side played insipidly and it looked like the list lacked options and the quality to win a flag and the coach lacked ideas I began to say MM would not coach a Collingwood premiership which I still believe to be the case. That game was before the real impact of what turned out to be a bad year with injuries which became the crutch the MM and even the president leaned on and raised numerous times at the AGM.

The reaction to losing the grand final in 2002 was inadequate in that the positional deficiencies that cost us were not rectified. Team selection was poor in 2003 and MM coached appallingly in that game. In fact he had a shocker from Thursday selection to the aftermatch when he hung Jason Cloke out to dry and the proceeded to make (IMO) list mistakes in the off season. No rectification of the weaknesses but an exit for a couple of players who should have stayed at that point as well. All this culminated in a fall down the ladder. I don’t deny injuries took some toll as well but there were fundamental flaws and at no stage did I or have I seen Malthouse accept responsibility.

In short after 5 years as coach I decided he wasn’t the answer and another 5 years hasn’t changed anything. He isn’t a bad coach but he just isn’t good enough at enough things. A club the resources of Collingwood should demand premierships not finals. Of course they won’t win a flag every year but a decade without a flag should be seen as failure and quality administration and leaders recognise failure before it occurs and act accordingly. Just as the coach needs to assess the players strengths weaknesses and ultimate potential, the board, or in Collingwood’s case the president has top assess the coach.
 
presti let us down at the pointy end, when it mattered most and in spite of his season and past record, he was never going to really get better and long term he is still holding out the development of someone younger.
Sorry but I disagree. Presti did not let us down the ruck and midfield let us down. The amount of ball Presti faced coming in and the way we were beaten made his job difficult and being beaten by Reiwoldt is no disgrace. It isn’t relevant that he won’t get better it is only relevant that he is good enough now. He isn’t holding anyone back. Reid hasn’t thus far been good enough or ready and N. Brown has been injured. If anyone is holding anyone back it is L. Brown who will also not get any better but is not and never has been good enough. Hearing MM justify him almost weekly at the post match makes me want to puke.
you really need to look at what realistic chance you are year by year when determining the fates of your presti's and Roccas. if we were a serious chance last year, then yes keep them, but we never were in the class of geelong or St kilda and if hawthorn had been right, then it would have been 3 sides that would beat us each and every time, including finals. So NO, we were not a realistic chance last year and should have pruned the list of the old wood with the hope of bringing on some younger blood for when we are a real chance maye 1 to 2 years on. Now thats looking at list management with the view to the future and realising exactly where you stand in the scheme of things
Yes and no. You need to look at Presti in terms of our chances during the remainder of his career. Are we a chance this year now that we have a ruckman? Maybe. What about next with a trade for a quick skilled mid?

Under MM we have looked to the future for a decade. At some point we have to actually try and win it and dispense with the crutch of we are building. Maybe it is co incidence but I think it is interesting that at the moment MM has a finite end we recruit to fill deficiencies.

As for Rocca, it was irrelevant. If he got fit he would have made a big difference. As it was he didn’t get fit. He didn’t hold anyone back because he didn’t play and I’d still have had a few off the list ahead of him regardless (Corrie, L. Brown & Stanley come readily to mind). In that case he didn’t cost us a developing kid because we should have had another 3 at least on the list even with him there.


I think we agree on a lot of broader issues but we see some of the faults in different areas. I am damn well sick of those that support our club who see no fault no time no how.
 
That is agreeing to disagree, is it not?

No abuse, plenty of open debate, and ending it civilly?


It probably is if Fu considers his views "simplistic and backward looking".

I'd consider it more akin to the kid taking his bat 'n ball and going home.

and since when did you end debates? I thought you liked to repeat points ad nauseum ;)
 

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What are you on about here??

Toovey is a kid who most pies supporters dont rate.....MM clearly sees something in Toovey and he played him. Toovey improved greatly in 2009, by the finals he had cemented his spot and he was a good contributor in the finals.

Maxwell is an AA backman, is captain of the club and he came off the rookie list.......not sure how Maxwell flourishing after MM gave him the captaincy is supposed to be a slight on MM???


Deary me....again you make poor points against MM.

Reiwoldt is a champion, he dominates the majority of games he plays.....MM tried 3 different blokes on him according to you, feck sometimes champion players simply are too good.

You dont make any decent points against MM.

Fu and MarkT raise the best points against MM, so perhaps leave the debate to people who know what they are talking about!!

First with Toovey, Timmy continualy states hes a very good blanketing defender. I just have never seen and wondered if anyone else had. Second Maxwell who cares if he was pick one or off the rookie list point is he playing and your captain. His effort cannot be critisised but his mistakes and unacountability are a liability. That AA was a joke as no Collingwood supporter can say he was in the top 18 players last year. He had no better year than Jason Blake and hes sixth defender most weeks a St kIlda.

As for the Malthouse tactics or lack of them post. Surely if a player takes 17 marks in a final the next time youd try somthing differant. But not Malthouse there was Riewoldt one out with Presti with meters of space in front of him. What was it 10 minutes to go in the last that Captain unacountable found his way onto him. For an AA defender why wasnt he given the job from the start? Or is manning up to much to ask of Maxwell?
 
First with Toovey, Timmy continualy states hes a very good blanketing defender.

Dont exaggerate and dont misquote.

I never said he was already there as a quality defender.

I said he was turning into a good blanketing defender. Big difference. He is very much a work in progress but his improvement in 2009 was probably the best at the club, at least the equal of Jack Anthony and Nick Maxwell.

And I said it once.
 
That is agreeing to disagree, is it not?

No abuse, plenty of open debate, and ending it civilly?
That wasn't civility, that's called being a petulant little child - Why attack his opinion as 'backward thinking' and short-sighted if you can 'agree to disagree'?

Please riddle me.

The post was doing so well until you felt the need to bait him, ultimately coming across as having little conviction in the content. It is the biggest problem with fora like these.

Anyhow...

Presti, probably should've stayed - he probably has an unquantifiable wealth of experience that your young defenders feed off - O'Brien's progress is nothing short of incredible, and it may well have been from Presti's influence that the younger generation of defenders have been able to show so much.

Maybe that too is the rational with keeping MM at the head. He is adept at getting the best out of players. The best in the league bar none. Maybe they're just priming this newer cohort drafted from say 2004 onwards for the prime of their careers. I honestly think it is a puzzling choice to keep Bucks waiting in the wings when the example was set by Voss, that shows learning on the job is more than plausible.
 
Very harsh on Presti. Very harsh indeed. Discussion over from my point of view.

Thanks for the debate but theres no point proceeding any further with you. You have your views - simplistic and backward looking as they may be - I have mine.

Go Pies.

It is a shame that the mismanaged Collingwood coaching fiasco is already causing division among supporters, but it was always going to happen. Didn't really think we'd see them eating their own quite so early, but there's a gulf between the McGuire/Malthouse faithful and those who have had sufficient years without success to want a new broom.
 
I honestly think it is a puzzling choice to keep Bucks waiting in the wings when the example was set by Voss, that shows learning on the job is more than plausible.

Early days yet.

I wouldnt let one year by the Lions, led by the veterans Black, Power and Brown, be enough on its own to draw any conclusions just yet about Michael Voss. Danny Frawley coached Richmond to a Preliminary Final in his first year as a senior coach.

Besides, Buckley is his own man. If he thinks he is better off served by doing an apprenticeship then it wouldnt matter to him what other people do.
 
It is a shame that the mismanaged Collingwood coaching fiasco is already causing division among supporters, but it was always going to happen..


Disagreement yes, division no. We are not sheep at Collingwood, we are entitled to have different opinions.

Nice try though. Keep punching. You'll get a scoring hit sooner or later.
 
Parrot Mark II ??

Personally, I think there is however a sentiment of division within the Collingwood supporter base. It could lead to the end of Eddie's time at the helm as well. And that is another parallel argument to this, that is quite pertinent in itself.

I wouldnt let one year by the Lions, led by the veterans Black, Power and Brown, be enough on its own to draw any conclusions just yet about Michael Voss.
That's probably the glaring difference between the two sides. When Voss left, a legacy of his teammates were around for him to coach - to ease him into the role. Buckley was the last of his 'era' and couldn't benefit from the calibre of veterans that the Lions' currently have.

His year was rather impressive nonetheless - I wonder what next year will bring for him.
No prizes for guessing how I want it to end! :eek:
 
Malthouse looked in trouble last year but turned it around with 12 wins from 13 games. That form is simply too good to ignore considering where our club is at.

We didn't lose Finals because the coaching was poor. We just weren't ready yet (mainly in a physical sense) and the top 2 teams were at a rare high level of performance. The runner up lost 2 games for the year FFS.

2 years more is sufficient for Mick to finish his business. Buckley will come in and take over in 2 years. It may be less if things go pearshaped and we play like Carlton, but at least the players will be well aware what the emergency plan is.

MM has already shown he an exceptional team player when it comes to coaching, as evidenced by Dean Laidley, Guy McKenna, Brad Scott and Blake Caracella being lured elsewhere. These guys had a big say in how our club operated in recent seasons, the same priveledge which will be afforded to Buckley.
 
I think also compounding all of this, is the notion in Australian sport that people get old and jaded. In Europe, football clubs kill for experienced managers and MM is the most experienced of the lot (bar Mr. GWS) There's nothing wrong with having that much experience - that is for sure.

I think you'll find however L24, that some of your supporters honestly do believe that poor coaching has cost you games quite often.
 
It probably is if Fu considers his views "simplistic and backward looking".

I'd consider it more akin to the kid taking his bat 'n ball and going home.

and since when did you end debates? I thought you liked to repeat points ad nauseum ;)
LOL, I read his comments this afternoon, but was too busy working to actually reply, using those two quotes and ask if he was being a little petulant and use the bat and ball thing myself.

LOL, very funny.

BTW, I dont think my ideas are backward and simplistic, they are my views that at some point Collingwood needed to make a proper assesment of the next 3 to 4 years, determine when the realistic window was open and start planning to have the list at its prime by then. By hanging onto presti was good short term, but not good when the more realistic window was open in some 2 to 3 years. Pruning him may have been harsh, but football is now a harsh business and plenty more harder decisions have been made for the betterment of clubs futures.
 
I think also compounding all of this, is the notion in Australian sport that people get old and jaded. In Europe, football clubs kill for experienced managers and MM is the most experienced of the lot (bar Mr. GWS) There's nothing wrong with having that much experience - that is for sure.

I think you'll find however L24, that some of your supporters honestly do believe that poor coaching has cost you games quite often.

I think Malthouse playing Leigh Brown ahead of Chris Dawes/Ben Reid is ridiculous, but it's not the stuff that costs us games. It hurts our long term development, but if we are talking winning the flag up for grabs in that particular season, it makes zero difference in the end.

What games did MM cost us? Semi Final against St Kilda in 2008 was pretty ordinary from Mick but besides that I doubt many would argue we should have beaten Geelong in 2007 and 2009.

Besides that we haven't had much trouble with anyone besides Hawthorn whose cluster/zone (and Buddy) has beaten us, but we've made some adjustments and will roll them this year.
 

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