Malthouse V Buckley

[FuManchu]

Maxwell's AA, H Shaw and O'Brien are guns, Toovey is turning into a very good blanket stopper on the small forwards, Presti has been outstanding for ten years and put out his best season ever in 2009, and L Brown is the stop-gap while Reid and Brown come on board. Its a solid defence and crosses all generations.

N Brown is no guarantee to be a top key back, reid is definitely going to have to pick up his act, he has shown nothing or very little and it could be two top 10 picks that show very little.

Presti was found wanting, no matter what slant you put on his 2009. His finals against some OK forwards with great delivery to them really stood out badly. So we are one key back short going forward when he retires and really, O'Brien is turning into a great player, but if he could flank rather than be a key position back, then it would add more to the structure, unless he can add 3 inches and 8kg and that aint going to happen. Thats where our problems lay ahead, the key positions. The flanks are well served

 

[EB&W Pieman]

NO FLAGS ( and thats the only measure that counts)

So 15 coaches should be sacked every year?

And, just so you know, tall kids take longer to develop than short ones. Keep that in mind when you acclaim (with surprising relish for an alleged Pies supported) another recruiting failure. You know ..... like ... errr...Pendlebury.

 

[FuManchu]

Hail Fu Manchu the true oracle. If only I could see the world through your jaundiced eyes.

You must have been reading up on the Eddie Maguire manual of us against them because you seem inclined to create such a mentality within BF Collingwood posters

There is just so much wrong with what you say its hard to know where to begin.

You provide simplistic and usually false assuptions to justify your extravagant claims. e.g. Eddies hatched a plan to get rid of MM. Eddie hatched a plan alright (audacious and I understand not one that everyone agrees with) but one to keep both MM and Buckley at the club with the aim of maximising the output. Malthouse is contracted for 5 years

This crap that you go on about MM and Maguire being seemingly happy with 4th place is an invention of your mind. Where and why do you invent it. I know you will spout that his coaching style only allows for near misses but again ths is just contrived because you want it to be so. Your agenda of rubbishing Malthouse has obviously clouded your thinking

Eddie has had a mandate for a long time thats given him an ability to weild his power in a way he sees fit. He has a big ego and overall has done a good job. Where do you get the idea that he fears the "fools and morons" that populate the membership to such a degree that he would knowingly compromise the success of the team to pander to their whims.

In that senario you no doubt are one of the subversives operating in the shady margins working against the evil incumbents while the rest of "Rome fiddles"

I could go on and on

I wonder if your BF's very own Walter Mitty

Still I like reading you in the same way I like reading Patrick Smith.

much in the same way you could prove to be BF's Tony Abbott!

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

thats the same time frame Clarkson put together a flag winning list, we havent.

If Geelong had kicked as badly for goal in the 07 PF and they did in 08 GF, then maybe that stat would be flipped on its head. Theres plenty of luck required to win flags as well as all the other stuff. All the coach can do is build the list and train the players. Whatever happens, happens, but pinching a flag before your time like Hawthorn did is a rarity seen once evry 20 years or so.

We have played about eleven finals in four years and missed a GF by a small margin - and all the while our list has got younger and younger. Thats a lot of good experience for a developing list.

 

[Gone Critical]

much in the same way you could prove to be BF's Tony Abbott!

Thats harsh, I am not sure I went that hard. Still in that mind of yours...

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

N Brown is no guarantee to be a top key back, reid is definitely going to have to pick up his act, he has shown nothing or very little and it could be two top 10 picks that show very little.

N Brown is guaranteed to be a top key back - they dont hand out Rising Star nominations for kpp's too often , Reid has definitely picked up his act after being the youngest draftee of his year, he has shown a lot in the VFL where players of his ilk are best served learning to ply the trade, and it could be two top 10 picks that show a lot.

See, I can say things unequivocally too, and make them sound convincing.

 

[Gone Critical]

Fu Manchu why are you so determined to castigate everything to do with Collingwood

You tear into critcism with such gusto and have only occasional lukewarm praise when confronted on some of your outrageous claims

What gives? Are you a Collingwood supporter? Is it just that your dislike for Malthouse can easily outweigh your love of the Pies? Something has to explain your seeming unbridled fanatacism to talk down Collingwood.

 

[The Fireman]

Fu Manchu why are you so determined to castigate everything to do with Collingwood

You tear into critcism with such gusto and have only occasional lukewarm praise when confronted on some of your outrageous claims

What gives? Are you a Collingwood supporter? Is it just that your dislike for Malthouse can easily outweigh your love of the Pies? Something has to explain your seeming unbridled fanatacism to talk down Collingwood.

Maybe some of you Magpie supporters can't handle the truth or simply are enable to criticize your own club whether it be right or wrong., I thought he made fair comment.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Maybe some of you Magpie supporters can't handle the truth or simply are enable to criticize your own club whether it be right or wrong., I thought he made fair comment.

Of course you thought he made fair comment. What a surprise.

Turning your coaches over every 5-6 years is no guarantee of success. Just look at StKilda as an example of that.

Sacking Malthouse a few years back in about 2005/6 would have been the easy choice. Collingwood took the tougher decision by sticking by him and working with him to rebuild the list after consecutive GF appearances with a less than optimal list.

 

[Gone Critical]

Maybe some of you Magpie supporters can't handle the truth or simply are enable to criticize your own club whether it be right or wrong., I thought he made fair comment.

Why doesnt that suprise me

I am a pretty balanced supporter. I dont see the club through rose coloured glasses but too much of that was unsubstansiated scaremongering. He needs some balance in his argument

It defies logic that a young developing team with good recent results can be seen so blackly

As for the stuff of Eddie being afraid of the morons and fools, please. He is a fairly benevolent dictator I'd reckon , one unlikely to be influenced too much by us great unwashed

Then again you dont mind going pretty hard at Collingwood so would naturally enjoy Fu

As I said I do also in a Patrick Smith kinda way. Its good to smile.

 

[The Fireman]

Of course you thought he made fair comment. What a surprise.

Turning your coaches over every 5-6 years is no guarantee of success. Just look at StKilda as an example of that.

Sacking Malthouse a few years back in about 2005/6 would have been the easy choice. Collingwood took the tougher decision by sticking by him and working with him to rebuild the list after consecutive GF appearances with a less than optimal list.

I read his post and couldn't fault it and yes it is a bit of a surprise.

At least you had a argument to present unlike some of your fellow nuffies who just took the easy option and simply attacked him. But you are wrong.
Sticking with MM was and still is a mistake , the vast majority would agree with that, he has kept your team down with some very poor drafting.
He is responsible for your continuing mediocre list. Turning over coaches is no guarantee of success but persisting with a poor one is just plain silly.

 

[FuManchu]

Fu Manchu why are you so determined to castigate everything to do with Collingwood

After 10 years, I have every right to castigate anything that proves years after year not to work. malthouse was brought to the club to win flags, he hasnt. A very simple concept i would have thought. he wasnt brought to the club just to make up the numbers in the finals, which is all he has done for the last 4 years. (2007 being the exception to some degree)

You tear into critcism with such gusto and have only occasional lukewarm praise when confronted on some of your outrageous claims

Someone has to face the truth, no poiunt everyone sitting there clapping 4th, 6th and 8th year after year. If no one has any expectation beyond that, who compels things to change? Are you content with 4th, 6th or 8th? It seems to me that you are.

What gives? Are you a Collingwood supporter? Is it just that your dislike for Malthouse can easily outweigh your love of the Pies? Something has to explain your seeming unbridled fanatacism to talk down Collingwood.

I can make the same claim about those who dont push the club to strive beyond what is happening, maybe I am more Collingwood and less about the individuals that make up Collingwood. Maybe some others might do well to remember that the club is bigger than both eddie and malthouse, but the cosy arrangement they have had going without little scrutiny might be wearing thin as another year passes without the promised flag. malthouse has failed to do what was promised 10 years back.

 

[Falchoon]

Turning your coaches over every 5-6 years is no guarantee of success. Just look at StKilda as an example of that.

Cheap shot and easy outTimmy

who was the last coach to coach 10 years without success and then win one?

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

After 10 years, I have every right to castigate anything that proves years after year not to work. malthouse was brought to the club to win flags, he hasnt. A very simple concept i would have thought.

Its too simple a concept actually. Its simplistic.

The only thing that matters is the here and now. And right here right now the club is on the right path with Malthouse having a couple of years to finish off his tenure and hand over smoothly to his successor. Hopefully Malthouse picks up a flag before he leaves - if not I'm pretty confident Buckley will have all the players at his disposal to take the next step.

Theres no magical cut-off date where you chuck your coach out and look for a new one. Some times it might be three years, sometimes it might be ten. It depends upon the circumstances. Malthouse had some success early and that bought him some time, the club lived through a few leaner years and the list has now come out the other side of that and looks as promising as it has been since the late 80's.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Cheap shot and easy outTimmy

who was the last coach to coach 10 years without success and then win one?

Not a cheap shot at all. Its quite relevant. Just because its never been done before doesnt mean it isnt do-able. Theres new benchmarks getting set every year in this game. Perhaps its more indicative of clubs not having the patience to see it through and listening to the media too much.

Theres plenty examples of coaches being sacked and then going on to other clubs and winning one though - Matthews at Colllingwood and Blight at Geelong being two obvious examples. And Bomber Thompson was nearly sacked after seven years. And of course StKilda's solitary premiership coach "retired" ten years after StKilda won the flag only to go on and pick up a few more at Hawthorn. And get paid more than 5 cents in the dollar for it!!!!!

 

[Gone Critical]

After 10 years, I have every right to castigate anything that proves years after year not to work. malthouse was brought to the club to win flags, he hasnt. A very simple concept i would have thought. he wasnt brought to the club just to make up the numbers in the finals, which is all he has done for the last 4 years. (2007 being the exception to some degree)

Its a simple concept that you use to take the higher moral ground.I am always wary of that, churches have used that approach for years (only the true believers etc)

However you could extropolate your thought process to say that in a 1:16 comp the pass mark should be set at 1 flag in each 16 seasons. So we dont yet know if MM has passed or failed. That would be similarly flawed logic to yours. You need to look a bit more deeply than just flipping off these mantras

If you cant see that the Collingwood list is developing and improving you are a hard marker. No doubt you see yourself as the same. Malthouse has developed a current list that should contend this year. With just a little natural improvement in some v good youngsters Pendles/Thomas/Brown/Anthony/Sidebottom/Beams/Cloke etc with the addition of Jolly /Ball and apart from Presti no one who is about to significantly drop off it is hard to see us not being improved in 2010. At least give some credence to that possibiltiy . You are in danger of not being able to enjoy any success that may come in 2010/11 because you will be swallowing so much pride




Someone has to face the truth, no poiunt everyone sitting there clapping 4th, 6th and 8th year after year. If no one has any expectation beyond that, who compels things to change? Are you content with 4th, 6th or 8th? It seems to me that you are.

I have been to every GF since 1970 that Collingwoods been in. My soul has burned each time bar 1990. I never clap after we dip out. I hate it . Flags are the only contentment but their absense does not mean automatic failure. It does mean automatic dejecture.


I can make the same claim about those who dont push the club to strive beyond what is happening, maybe I am more Collingwood and less about the individuals that make up Collingwood. Maybe some others might do well to remember that the club is bigger than both eddie and malthouse, but the cosy arrangement they have had going without little scrutiny might be wearing thin as another year passes without the promised flag. malthouse has failed to do what was promised 10 years back.

We fools and morons care as much as you do, dont pretend that we dont. Push the club all you want I like that, but dont make up stuff about the incumbents having adgendas to feather their nests at the expense of the Clubs fortunes. I cant believe that and it doesnt make sense as Eddie strength can only be enhanced by premiership success

 

[FuManchu]

Its too simple a concept actually. Its simplistic.

its simplistic because all the chest beating by Mcguire about making collingwood an onfield power was just as simplistic. he promised onfield success. he hasnt delivered. All the money he has generated is fantastic, good on him, but the club exists for one reason and thats premiership success of which we have been starved. He has failed to deliver on the one thing you and I want from this club.

The only thing that matters is the here and now. And right here right now the club is on the right path with Malthouse having a couple of years to finish off his tenure and hand over smoothly to his successor. Hopefully Malthouse picks up a flag before he leaves - if not I'm pretty confident Buckley will have all the players at his disposal to take the next step.

The right here and the right now is that we are so far off being a genuine contender its not funny. whether you like to agree or not, the evidence was there for all to see that prelim final. we are defficient in personnel and game plan. 13 goal losses tell you something when you are playing for everything. And that night, much like the previous year when we played that years eventual premier twice and lost by 10 goals is that certain top teams carve us up due to the list we have and the game plan we have. thats all malthouses doing. Other coaches live and die by their perfomances, yet malthouse survives because he gets us into the finals. At some point you have to say that just finals is a shallow thing.

This year will probably be 5 years in finals and I bet still no advance on 4th. Malthouse just hasnt got the nous in this era to construct a list and put into action a game plan that is the very best. He is good, but he is not good enough. He has serious philosophical issues with the game that put him behind newer more advanced thinking on the game as evidenced each year when we fall short of those who have either had the same tiume or less time at their clubs and advanced further. He has never been an innovator and as such he is reactive. His list development while some think is good doesnt compare to what other teams have put together.

Theres no magical cut-off date where you chuck your coach out and look for a new one. Some times it might be three years, sometimes it might be ten. It depends upon the circumstances. Malthouse had some success early and that bought him some time, the club lived through a few leaner years and the list has now come out the other side of that and looks as promising as it has been since the late 80's.

It hasnt come out far enough. You might dismiss the clarkson argument, but he had inherited a cellar dweller and made it win a flag, we were in the same situation pretty much the following year and cant go past 4th. Sometimes you just got to read what is being said to you by the results. he cant push the club that fair bit further. ( and its a fair bit to make up) Another similar result this year will only reinforce this and once again the same argument, good but not good enough! The 4th is not indicative of just how far behind the top we really are.

 

[FuManchu]

We fools and morons care as much as you do, dont pretend that we dont. Push the club all you want I like that, but dont make up stuff about the incumbents having adgendas to feather their nests at the expense of the Clubs fortunes. I cant believe that and it doesnt make sense as Eddie strength can only be enhanced by premiership success

You need to learn to use the quote function if you want to have a back and forth discussion

 

[Gone Critical]

The right here and the right now is that we are so far off being a genuine contender its not funny. whether you like to agree or not, the evidence was there for all to see that prelim final. we are defficient in personnel and game plan. 13 goal losses tell you something when you are playing for everything. And that night, much like the previous year when we played that years eventual premier twice and lost by 10 goals is that certain top teams carve us up due to the list we have and the game plan we have.
[/B]

Sorry it just doesnt work to say because team A beats team B easily in the finals the year before team B is doomed

Look at the 2008 series

Hawthorn thrashed Stk and the Bulldogs

Geel thrashed the Saints and did the Dogs by 5 goals.

On your logic the Cats and Saints, who had been thereabouts for a few years like us should sack the coach and do a rebuild.

You can look at Collingwoods last 2/3's of the season and say they were not far away, with the expected improvement should be closer in 2010

On your logic the Hawks and Cats should have smashed the Dogs and Saints again this year because there was little difference in the lists each team started season to season with. If only it was so simple.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

The right here and the right now is that we are so far off being a genuine contender its not funny. whether you like to agree or not, the evidence was there for all to see that prelim final. we are defficient in personnel and game plan. .

You're still being too simplistic and not paying due credit to the talent in Collingwood's list. Yes we were miles behind the top two sides this year but so was everybody else. Thats not to say the gap can't close.

Margins in finals count for shit. When its over, its all over. It doesnt mean you cant come back better and stronger the next year. All that game showed is that we needed a ruckman (fixed) and a clearance player (fixed) and some experience (its on the way).

Geelong missed the finals the year before they won the flag. They beat a side who had come 14th the year before.
Hawthorn were 11th in 2007 and won the flag in 2008
StKilda were smacked in the 2008 finals by 58 points yet were inches from a premiership this year.

 

[Gone Critical]

You need to learn to use the quote function if you want to have a back and forth discussion

Sorry I aint that good on computers

 

[FuManchu]

Sorry it just doesnt work to say because team A beats team B easily in the finals the year before team B is doomed

When the same teams beat you the same way each time, like hawthorn do and like Geelong have started to do, then it tells you something and that prelim, it was all there for everyone to see where we fall short, right from that 2nd qtr onwards, we got smashed. And Hawthorn did it twice the same way in 2008 and once again this year in the same manner, this time tho, they did it in half a game, exactly the same way they beat us twice the year before. Its all about how they can counteract you and once they know how, they smash us big time.

Look at the 2008 series

Hawthorn thrashed Stk and the Bulldogs

Geel thrashed the Saints and did the Dogs by 5 goals.

On your logic the Cats and Saints, who had been thereabouts for a few years like us should sack the coach and do a rebuild.

You can look at Collingwoods last 2/3's of the season and say they were not far away, with the expected improvement should be closer in 2010

On your logic the Hawks and Cats should have smashed the Dogs and Saints again this year because there was little difference in the lists each team started season to season with. If only it was so simple.

[/QUOTE]

Wrong, my logic is that certain teams have certain dynamics in the way they structure and they way they play and more importantly the way they play certain type other teams and there are a few teams going round and they mostly gravitate towards the top end of the ladder that have the dynamic to crush us no matter where they are on the ladder ( hawthorn being excused last year). And they have the game plan and the personnel to more than counter what we have to offer, they have mastered it and can smash us. And they do.

And whats worse, is that malthouse has no plan B against them. he makes very few moves to counter teams that are rampaging against us and the game slips very quickly in those circumstances. In fact, malthouse is so rigid in his game plan, there are very few instances of a plan B when plan A is so obviously failing and not many more player moves on opponents when players are dominating us ( ie: Riewoldt 2008 semi and mcleod Rd 1 2009). He is the proverbial moose caught in the headlights some times.

malthouse is rigidly a defensive coach, that plays wide, holds onto the ball until an option presents and for a team, not the most highly skilled going around, its not always the best plan against teams that will flood your forward line, cause you to turn it over and run it out thru the middle because you have created a huge vacuum there by spending so much resources moving the ball along the boundary. Hawthorn kill us everytime just that way. Geelong just smashed us in the middle from the bounce, they were even more ruthless. But once again, what did malthouse do?

 

[FuManchu]

You're still being too simplistic and not paying due credit to the talent in Collingwood's list. Yes we were miles behind the top two sides this year but so was everybody else. Thats not to say the gap can't close.

The gap may close with a more dynamic attacking style of football, but it wont with malthouse's defensive attitude to the way the game is played. He is over cautious by nature and he hasnt got the capacity to introduce an overtly attacking game plan, so we will always be behind those teams that take advantage of the way we play. Can you see malthouse becoming an attacking coach and forgo his preciously held defensive mindset? Can you see malthouse becoming a trendsetter that changes the way the game is played and therefore giving him the ascendency over more attacking sides with better equiped players that can attack?

Margins in finals count for shit. When its over, its all over. It doesnt mean you cant come back better and stronger the next year. All that game showed is that we needed a ruckman (fixed) and a clearance player (fixed) and some experience (its on the way).

So, the forward line functioned perfectly in all 3 finals games? Not too mention the footscray game Rd22?

Geelong missed the finals the year before they won the flag. They beat a side who had come 14th the year before.
Hawthorn were 11th in 2007 and won the flag in 2008
StKilda were smacked in the 2008 finals by 58 points yet were inches from a premiership this year.

All 3 sides have players far more outstanding than we have. We have a consistant nucleas, they have stars. We dont have a matchturner, we have players that grind out wins. We dont have a superstar mid, we dont have a dynamic forward and the backline while functioning quite well as a unit still lacks a genuine CHB and a FB coming up. O'Brien is just not big enough to be a genuine CHB, but he is a damn good player, no mistake.

If you can find a genuine superstar ( and dont go escalating the likes of pendlebury and co to the likes of Ablett and Judd and Franklin and co, because they are accumulators as opposed to outright dynamic forces) then maybe we might have the ability to advance, but as yet, we dont have a top 5 superstar in our midst. And thats all because malthouse would rather ethic over skill and talent, thats his whole philosophy about the functioning team. Unfortunately, you got to have your match winners too, who might also have the hard work ethic. I have always said, he would prefer a workhorse over a fickle yet talented player. He is a back pocket player after all!

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Jolly and Ball will go some way into getting closer to the sides who regularly beat us. And theres not many of them. We've beaten competitive Geelong and StKilda enough times in the recent past so theres no reason to suggest they are unbeatable. Hawthorn are a different story but the addition of some muscle of Ball and Jolly into the midfield will make Collingwood more accountable in the clinches. We still need to get 30-40 games into our young talent but theres no way you can rush that. You just have to get games into the kids and risk losing games by embarrassing margins on occasion.

I'm not too hung up over game plans and flexibility. When you lose you look bad and when you win you look good. Malthouse has actually moved with the times, contrary to public belief. Buckley will add his own touch when he is ready to take over in two years.

 

[Falchoon]

Margins in finals count for shit. When its over, its all over. It doesnt mean you cant come back better and stronger the next year. All that game showed is that we needed a ruckman (fixed) and a clearance player (fixed) and some experience (its on the way).

and a forward.

Finals Goals 2009

Johnson, Ben	3
Lockyer, Tarkyn	2
OBrien, Harry	2
Anthony, John	2
Rocca, Anthony	2
Brown, Leigh	2
Thomas, Dale	2
Dick, Brad	2
Macaffer, Brent	2
Medhurst, Paul	1
Wellingham, Sharrod	1
Swan, Dane	1
Cloke, Travis	1
Davis, Leon	1
Didak, Alan	1

Collingwood really need Cloke to stand up, even more than that they need him to elevate himself to the A grade category.