Game Day Marsh Community Series 1 2020: Hawthorn v St Kilda, Thursday 20th February 7:10pm AEST @ RSEA Park

[tige19]

If we can sort out a pressure small forward then we look a lot more accomplished, makes the lack of interest in Butler a little confusing but so be it. I don’t know if Ollie is the answer but looks like he’ll get a fair swing at it, on talent Minch would be the pick out of them 2 but the question has always been whether he can stay on the park.

How navigate those conundrum will be interesting.

 

[Brant]

If we can sort out a pressure small forward then we look a lot more accomplished, makes the lack of interest in Butler a little confusing but so be it. I don’t know if Ollie is the answer but looks like he’ll get a fair swing at it, on talent Minch would be the pick out of them 2 but the question has always been whether he can stay on the park.

How navigate those conundrum will be interesting.

I watched Butler with interest the other day, for this reason.

Sure, pre-season & 20% discount for having a bad day etc., but he was an absolute butcher going forward. I agree - we need one, but IMO he isn’t the guy.

I’ll be happy to see Nash go again & I know it’ll never happen but I’d love to see Frost go forward & play as a monster Small Pressure Forward every now & again. Especially if we’re playing BB @ CHB.

 

[hk89]

I lost interest after reading "we were unlucky" and "if not for injuries".
Leave that sort of talk for for clubs who accept mediocrity and loser talk.
You make your own luck (see 3-peat and countless prelims that we were "lucky to win") and we werent able to counter injuries with good depth like some of the BETTER teams did would be a more accurate summation.

You're arguing with the wrong person, and it seems you didn't follow the discussion thread that the post you quoted was part of. Take it up with brishawk who thinks we were competitive in the 2018 finals campaign - a point of view I was arguing against.

 

[Dipper]

Nah you have mine and 4Thawns context wrong or your micro managing.

Lol.

Perhaps he's just being a dick.

On moto g(7) using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[flinchfree]

Nah, he's not. Offering an opinion regardless of whether it's negative (or positive) or not is not being a coward. Being a coward would be not offering one at all because someone on the internet said you're a coward for having views different to their own, or posting inane positive stuff purely for likes (not suggesting anyone in particular is doing that mind you).

I'm talking about a consistent slant, as was the poster you responded to. A consistent slag. A consistent 'we've got the worst...blah blah', whether that's list or systems, a 'we're no chance' before the moment has played out.
Giving a critical thinking post that suggests where we need to get better is one thing, hiding your head behind 'we're such losers right now' so that you personally don't feel the sting of defeat as you've prepped yourself for it, and thinking you need to prep EVERYONE else for it because otherwise they're fools for their hopes, that's a shitty cowardly way to enter a sporting contest as a SUPPORTER.
If the club gives you years and years of non-competitive footy, with a management that can't build the brand or grow the membership or hire smart coaches or have coaches that can give game plans that stack up to the modern versions...then you can crank on it week after week.

It's too bloody easy for some to pot away with extraordinary consistency, knowing that odds are always in their favor. Because the very best lose games, that's how hard the comp is. And the next best lose a solid percentage of their games, because that's how hard a comp it is, and how hard a game it is to play and be at your best physically and psychologically.

Win a game, or three in a row, have players perform above your stated opinion, and you can blow it off as an anomaly.
'Hey, you're stupid if you think player X is going to show up next game'! Because chances are unless you're the premiership favourite you WILL likely lose a game next or be the player that can't win their postion.
Or the doomer will retort 'the team was helped because the other was shit'. Or 'their coach sucks'. Or 'they've got injuries'. Or 'there was a shortened break for them'. Or 'we were lucky to kick straight'. Or 'a few players carried everyone else'. Or or or.
Then you lose a game, and Ohhhhh boy, 'see, we ARE SHIT, the player IS SHIT, the team WAS LUCKY, the coach DID get OUTCOACHED'. With incredibly loudness and certainty and disdain for all those who see a more positive spin, whatever that may be. And of course, the doomers pan everybody else as rosy glasses, un reasonable, un educated on the game, Hawk biased, etc etc.

But lets say we're looking alright in a season, winning some good games against good opposition, but losing some too.
And then, it comes.
'Well, let's see. Anything less than top 4 is a loss anyway'
'Anything less than winning finals is a loss anyway'
'We're lightyears behind the leaders' - who we may have lost to by under 5 goals - and 'they could have smashed us if they wanted we're that bad, they just couldn't be bothered'.

Mate, it's super easy and not highly intellectually critical to have disbelief/negativity because in a comp with as many teams as there is, and the closeness of talent loading because of the draft and difficulty in player movement through FA, the difference between teams is small so your chances of winning all the time are small. You have to maximize your relatively small strengths to their utmost over the other teams, but most importantly have a group that will sell out completely and risk looking the fool because they believe in the collective's ability to overcome any personal failure. Their 'form' is the collective and individual will, and it's worth 2-4 goals every week which is juuuuust enough to win a significant majority of their games.

Do ALL of it right, be best in class at drafting, coaching, wellness, EVERYTHING, and the greatest team of all time in my opinion - the 83-91 Hawks - still lost games, still didn't win every season, still had 'experts' watch the way we played and thought it wouldn't hold up, still didn't win EVERY cup.
The greatest of all time. And not just outside experts called us too old, or past it, or other teams were going past us.
Though I beat my chest to all my mates with perfect bravado, I too clenched my nether cheeks as the biggest of big games arrived, not wanting the naysayers to be proven right, and worrying that they might. And every cup was salvation, every cup a gift. Not the undisputed requisited result befitting our status, truly a gift that wasn't assured but delivered by giving blood and tears by my heroes so that we could share something unique and awe inspiring.

So, how do you fairly judge a team that is building to try and be a threat for a GF, not a monty for one?
Not that I think you are stupidly harsh, because I don't. I like your mix.
However, for some the mix is borderline Romaine only, no frisee, no carrot, no baby tomatoes, no dressing.
Same same all the time.
Chances are while we are not the AFL competition's powerhouse they can be right about the outcome that we will lose more than we enjoy, but be oblivious to the road being traveled.

If I could only enjoy the sure things, I'd never have given my sport the go I did. It wasn't just the hours with coaches and in games and knockarounds with friends, it was the hours with no-one watching hitting a tennis ball against the side of the house, or inside the house keeping the ball alive on the strings, or lying on my back tossing the ball up as close as I could to the ceiling without it touching and making one handed catches, or rolling up the footy socks with just myself in the house and trying to banana one through the kitchen servery.
Anyone watching me knew I wasn't THE best in the country, or the state, but no one knew for sure if the road I was traveling might not just be the one to catch me up and pass those whose love of the work wasn't as great. My belief and will and love of everything sport gave me a shot, but my talent and gifts were not sufficient.

Odds were I'd never make it. Those who called it early would have been right.
They'd still have been deadshits for saying it, and cowards for not backing me in on the attempt because they didn't want to be disappointed themselves at the end of it all.

Everyone should enjoy having different views and the opportunity to express them, but just as you might have a negative opinion of the team, so might others have a negative opinion of your opinion.

 

[Tassie Cryptik]

Tldr
Just put him on ignore.

 

[TylerDurden]

Minch. He could play r1.

 

[tige19]

I watched Butler with interest the other day, for this reason.

Sure, pre-season & 20% discount for having a bad day etc., but he was an absolute butcher going forward. I agree - we need one, but IMO he isn’t the guy.

I’ll be happy to see Nash go again & I know it’ll never happen but I’d love to see Frost go forward & play as a monster Small Pressure Forward every now & again. Especially if we’re playing BB @ CHB.

Oh yeah, you're spot on regarding the way Butler butches the footy but how harshly do you want to judge him considering how poor some of our ball users are? Purely as buzzing around, high pressure forward who can hit the scoreboard he is a good player, probably better than anything we have in that position currently. Of course, Poppy at 27-28 is levels above Butler, an absolute star but that Poppy is long gone.

 

[Bumps"N"Grins]

Oh yeah, you're spot on regarding the way Butler butches the footy but how harshly do you want to judge him considering how poor some of our ball users are? Purely as buzzing around, high pressure forward who can hit the scoreboard he is a good player, probably better than anything we have in that position currently. Of course, Poppy at 27-28 is levels above Butler, an absolute star but that Poppy is long gone.

Just a thought, does anyone know if Butler wanted us. It's not like we know if we asked, Hawthorn might have not bothered knowing his desire to go elsewhere.
Would be good if people like Topiary have any insight as to the goings on.
Looks like the pressure forward position might be a problem going forward but the goal kicking small forward looks okay, punky broooster looks as fit a feck this year, running about as good as I have seen him do so, 40 to 50 in him if that touch is still there.

 

[Milkshaker]

Just a thought, does anyone know if Butler wanted us. It's not like we know if we asked, Hawthorn might have not bothered knowing his desire to go elsewhere.
Would be good if people like Topiary have any insight as to the goings on.
Looks like the pressure forward position might be a problem going forward but the goal kicking small forward looks okay, punky broooster looks as fit a feck this year, running about as good as I have seen him do so, 40 to 50 in him if that touch is still there.

Agree Punky is probably the least of our small forward worries imo even if father time is slowly catching up with him. Check this out for durability. The bloke is a star. Season and games played. Impressive.

 

[tige19]

Just a thought, does anyone know if Butler wanted us. It's not like we know if we asked, Hawthorn might have not bothered knowing his desire to go elsewhere.
Would be good if people like Topiary have any insight as to the goings on.
Looks like the pressure forward position might be a problem going forward but the goal kicking small forward looks okay, punky broooster looks as fit a feck this year, running about as good as I have seen him do so, 40 to 50 in him if that touch is still there.

We have no idea really, but one would assume if we legitimately threw our hat into the ring then we would have heard about it and/or he would have had to have a serious think. Like any sportsman, if bigger,better more successful club comes knocking then you listen eg.. You are a 25 year PL star playing for Southampton, if Arsenal come knocking you would be all ears.

 

[flinchfree]

Tldr
Just put him on ignore.

Always smart to let everyone know your big achievements on this forum, sometimes they're hard to discern.

 

[JZedd]

I watched Butler with interest the other day, for this reason.

Sure, pre-season & 20% discount for having a bad day etc., but he was an absolute butcher going forward. I agree - we need one, but IMO he isn’t the guy.

I’ll be happy to see Nash go again & I know it’ll never happen but I’d love to see Frost go forward & play as a monster Small Pressure Forward every now & again. Especially if we’re playing BB @ CHB.

 

[Iceman!]

The obsession over Butler by some is mind boggling, he is a seriously average player and sure we could use an average small forward but he is not going to be the difference between failure and success this year.

 

[FisherHawk]

So this is the Marsh Community Series thread, right?

 

[tige19]

I'm talking about a consistent slant, as was the poster you responded to. A consistent slag. A consistent 'we've got the worst...blah blah', whether that's list or systems, a 'we're no chance' before the moment has played out.
Giving a critical thinking post that suggests where we need to get better is one thing, hiding your head behind 'we're such losers right now' so that you personally don't feel the sting of defeat as you've prepped yourself for it, and thinking you need to prep EVERYONE else for it because otherwise they're fools for their hopes, that's a shitty cowardly way to enter a sporting contest as a SUPPORTER.
If the club gives you years and years of non-competitive footy, with a management that can't build the brand or grow the membership or hire smart coaches or have coaches that can give game plans that stack up to the modern versions...then you can crank on it week after week.

It's too bloody easy for some to pot away with extraordinary consistency, knowing that odds are always in their favor. Because the very best lose games, that's how hard the comp is. And the next best lose a solid percentage of their games, because that's how hard a comp it is, and how hard a game it is to play and be at your best physically and psychologically.

Win a game, or three in a row, have players perform above your stated opinion, and you can blow it off as an anomaly.
'Hey, you're stupid if you think player X is going to show up next game'! Because chances are unless you're the premiership favourite you WILL likely lose a game next or be the player that can't win their postion.
Or the doomer will retort 'the team was helped because the other was shit'. Or 'their coach sucks'. Or 'they've got injuries'. Or 'there was a shortened break for them'. Or 'we were lucky to kick straight'. Or 'a few players carried everyone else'. Or or or.
Then you lose a game, and Ohhhhh boy, 'see, we ARE SHIT, the player IS SHIT, the team WAS LUCKY, the coach DID get OUTCOACHED'. With incredibly loudness and certainty and disdain for all those who see a more positive spin, whatever that may be. And of course, the doomers pan everybody else as rosy glasses, un resonable, un educated on the game, Hawk biased, etc etc.

But lets say we're looking alright in a season, winning some good games against good opposition, but losing some too.
And then, it comes.
'Well, let's see. Anything less than top 4 is a loss anyway'
'Anything less than winning finals is a loss anyway'
'We're lightyears behind the leaders' - who we may have lost to by under 5 goals - and 'they could have smashed us if they wanted we're that bad, they just couldn't be bothered'.

Mate, it's super easy and not highly intellectually critical to have disbelief/negativity because in a comp with as many teams as there is, and the closeness of talent loading because of the draft and difficulty in player movement through FA, the difference between teams is small so your chances of winning all the time are small. You have to maximize your relatively small strengths to their utmost over the other teams, but most importantly have a group that will sell out completely and risk looking the fool because they believe in the collective's ability to overcome any personal failure. Their 'form' is the collective and individual will, and it's worth 2-4 goals every week which is juuuuust enough to win a significant majority of their games.

Do ALL of it right, be best in class at drafting, coaching, wellness, EVERYTHING, and the greatest team of all time in my opinion - the 83-91 Hawks - still lost games, still didn't win every season, still had 'experts' watch the way we played and thought it wouldn't hold up, still didn't win EVERY cup.
The greatest of all time. And not just outside experts called us too old, or past it, or other teams were going past us.
Though I beat my chest to all my mates with perfect bravado, I too clenched my nether cheeks as the biggest of big games arrived, not wanting the naysayers to be proven right, and worrying that they might. And every cup was salvation, every cup a gift. Not the undisputed requisited result befitting our status, truly a gift that wasn't assured but delivered by giving blood and tears by my heroes so that we could share something unique and awe inspiring.

So, how do you fairly judge a team that it is building to try and be a threat for a GF, not a monty for one?
Not that I think you are stupidly harsh, because I don't. I like your mix.
However, for some the mix is borderline Romaine only, no frisee, no carrot, no baby tomatoes, no dressing.
Same same all the time.
Chances are while we are not the AFL competition's powerhouse they can be right about the outcome that we will lose more than we enjoy, but be oblivious to the road being traveled.

If I could only enjoy the sure things, I'd never have given my sport the go I did. It wasn't just the hours with coaches and in games and knockarounds with friends, it was the hours with no-one watching hitting a tennis ball against the side of the house, or inside the house keeping the ball alive on the strings, or lying on my back tossing the ball up as close as I could to the ceiling without it touching and making one handed catches, or rolling up the footy socks with just myself in the house and trying to banana one through the kitchen servery.
Anyone watching me knew I wasn't THE best in the country, or the state, but no one knew for sure if the road I was traveling might not just be the one to catch me up and pass those whose love of the work wasn't as great. My belief and will and love of everything sport gave me a shot, but my talent and gifts were not sufficient.

Odds were I'd never make it. Those who called it early would have been right.
They'd still have been deadshits for saying it, and cowards for not backing me in on the attempt because they didn't want to be disappointed themselves at the end of it all.

Everyone should enjoy having different views and the opportunity to express them, but just as you might have a negative opinion of the team, so might others have a negative opinion of your opinion.

Interesting post, not sure if it was aimed at me or not but I respect the depth you've gone into.

FWIW - I have us making finals and being ultra-competitive, I have stated a number of times I am really excited about the state of our big forwards, the development of our midfield with Titch coming back and Worpel shining and I also feel defensively we set up extremely well and have all areas covered at that end of the ground. I have extremely high hopes for youngsters in Mitch Lewis, Harry Jones, CJ, Finn and excited to see how much improvement we get out of Worpel, Hardwick and now seemingly a guy like Greaves.

With the above said, I am probably the first to put my hand up and say I am an ultra-realist, maybe to the point where I am in a sense pessimistic in my views. I am like this in all facets of life, business, people, sport etc... No doubt it's played a role in both success and failure.

My concerns for our side in my view are valid, if I feel they are valid and I am forthright in my statements we have many here who carry on like the world is ending, as if the dialogue used is so damning and offensive that it calls for people to become bitter, angry and personal in their attacks, it's actually insanity at it's finest.

We have holes in the side, no-on can deny that, significant holes that in my view will hold us back from really competing for a premiership. We lack a genuine pressure small forward, a young high-level wingman and perhaps another elite goal kicking mid.

 

[tige19]

The obsession over Butler by some is mind boggling, he is a seriously average player and sure we could use an average small forward but he is not going to be the difference between failure and success this year.

Yep, you are spot on, but he is better than what we have and is in a good age bracket. Generally, that pressure small forward role is considered a bit of a hole for most.

 

[AlwaysHawks15]

Yep, you are spot on, but he is better than what we have and is in a good age bracket. Generally, that pressure small forward role is considered a bit of a hole for most.

I think Ollie's ceiling is higher than Butler's, the difference being the attitude and application of each player to perform a role for the team which we all know Butler is a mile ahead at this point. The club has faith in Ollie to find that level that he lacks ATM and will give him every chance to be a lock for the team. Minchington may get first crack however to see what he can do being the more established player age wise and being in the system longer.

 

[flinchfree]

Interesting post, not sure if it was aimed at me or not but I respect the depth you've gone into.

FWIW - I have us making finals and being ultra-competitive, I have stated a number of times I am really excited about the state of our big forwards, the development of our midfield with Titch coming back and Worpel shining and I also feel defensively we set up extremely well and have all areas covered at that end of the ground. I have extremely high hopes for youngsters in Mitch Lewis, Harry Jones, CJ, Finn and excited to see how much improvement we get out of Worpel, Hardwick and now seemingly a guy like Greaves.

With the above said, I am probably the first to put my hand up and say I am an ultra-realist, maybe to the point where I am in a sense pessimistic in my views. I am like this in all facets of life, business, people, sport etc... No doubt it's played a role in both success and failure.

My concerns for our side in my view are valid, if I feel they are valid and I am forthright in my statements we have many here who carry on like the world is ending, as if the dialogue used is so damning and offensive that it calls for people to become bitter, angry and personal in their attacks, it's actually insanity at it's finest.

We have holes in the side, no-on can deny that, significant holes that in my view will hold us back from really competing for a premiership. We lack a genuine pressure small forward, a young high-level wingman and perhaps another elite goal kicking mid.

Agree, and I don't consider you one sided in your estimations. I think you likely see the problems of the team more than the possible solutions within it, but mostly you're right around the mark. Maybe you need it proven before believing, and it feels like your default is to disbelieve until shown otherwise.
I was interpreting the post that Judd2 responded to, and why reading a collective perspective from a number of posters on here seems like it doesn't take much courage to say what they say.

Footy isn't just when you're on top or not, it's what you're doing to try and get there. Reckon a few who just moan don't see much of the nuance in what it takes to be top dog in the most elite sporting comp in the sport in the country. If someone just wants to say we're shit until we're winning flags or finishing top 2 every season, it gets old because being a supporter is supporting the team all the time. Not just being a fan boy when you're elite.
In the EPL you can buy the Stars.
In the AFL you have to make them.

 

[tommyk72]

What time does today’s match start?

 

[Madhawknut]

What time does today’s match start?

4:30 pm

 

[Carl Spackler]

Minch. He could play r1.

Picking the team. So exciting this year. For the first time in two seasons, maybe, we'll be arguing about someone left out rather than people included. Finally the list is a little bulging.

 

[tige19]

I think Ollie's ceiling is higher than Butler's, the difference being the attitude and application of each player to perform a role for the team which we all know Butler is a mile ahead at this point. The club has faith in Ollie to find that level that he lacks ATM and will give him every chance to be a lock for the team. Minchington may get first crack however to see what he can do being the more established player age wise and being in the system longer.

I tell you what shits me, and it’s not just Ollie but it’s the lack of care and passion in the way they approach their goal kicking. Ollie has limited chances, he needs to make good on this chances and to often he has a shot on goal with what seems little routine, he seems rushed and not in control. The flipside is Mitch Lewis, his goal kicking process is mechanical and in fluid and if he misses you can see the disappointment in his emotion.

Does Ollie have any of that? And if he doesn’t how do you teach that? Purely an outsiders view.

 

[Stratton24]

What time does today’s match start?

Today's match starts at 4.30 pm tomorrow

 

[tommyk72]

Today's match starts at 4.30 pm tomorrow

Thanks! I thought it was today for some reason. Good to know!!!