Matthew Lloyd (2001) vs. Lance Franklin (2008)

[whatimtalkingbout]

I lol'd at that one...Lloyd injury free? He's broken his wrist, arm and torn his hamstring off the bone. Easily missed about two seasons worth of footy.

Yes and Jason Dunstall broke his skull, did his knee, and only ended up playing 260 odd games due to back problems. He's been lucky to be in such good knick at 250 games, that's the point. Of course he's had his injuries, but he's going to get to 300 and that's rare air for a full forward.

 

[whatimtalkingbout]

Franklin had 225 shots at goal this year, meaning 158 disposals were in general play (6.32 per match). Regardless of how you intepret the disposal efficiency rate, you're only looking at around 4 to 4.5 effective disposals per game because most of the other disposals are eaten up by shots at goal (9 per match).

This still leaves him short of Lloyd in goals per game, 'general play' disposals (effective AND total), marks and goal assists.

His 3 Frees Against per game also more than negate his 1-2 effective inside 50s, and that's not even taking into account clangers such as all those 50m penalties.

So all he really has on his side is tackles and 3 hit-outs .

4.5 effective disposals out of 6.32 . . . how did you work this out? I told you the disposal efficiency is worked out from all possessions, not just general play, right? That's not my spin on things, that's just how Champion Data count it up. How did you calculate that Lloyd has a greater number of effective 'general play' disposals?

He certainly does have double the tackles, so applies more defensive pressure, let's say that. How you going on that inside 50 or goal assist stat? Let's get that one if we can.

 

[aussieicon91]

Interesting to note that its only Hawk fans saying Franklin.

Also interesting that its conveniently ignored that most of the time when Franklin is moved up the ground is not because the team needs more run but because he cant get a kick. Since when does playing different positions make you a better player than someone who plays one position? Lloyd never went up the ground because the side was always better when he was at full-forward and he never struggled to get a kick.

Are you kidding? Go back and read the first couple of pages, more neutral fans have sided to Franklin and the majority of the people voting in favour of Llyod were Essendon supporters.

Llyod in 2000/01 never had to move up the field because the team he played in hardly ever lost a match during that period of time and still Llyod never managed to get atleast 200 shots on goal for a particular season.

 

[james_omahoney]

4.5 effective disposals out of 6.32 . . . how did you work this out? I told you the disposal efficiency is worked out from all possessions, not just general play, right? That's not my spin on things, that's just how Champion Data count it up. How did you calculate that Lloyd has a greater number of effective 'general play' disposals?

He certainly does have double the tackles, so applies more defensive pressure, let's say that. How you going on that inside 50 or goal assist stat? Let's get that one if we can.

Yeah i took that into consideration.

4 - 4.5 disposals is roughly 60-70% of 6.32 total 'general play' disposals per game. I thought I'd allow you to say Franklin's general play efficiency was up to 70% so you wouldn't keep whingeing about the behinds throwing his percentage out.

Out of Lloyd's 14 possessions per game, around 6.5 were shots on goal (compared to Franklin's 9), which means around 7.5 were general play possessions. Given that his disposal efficiency was between 70-80%, then this means he had on average more than 1 'general play' disposal than Franklin. I wouldn't usually be so pedantic, but I used that to demonstrate to you that Franklin actually contributed less in general play than Lloyd did.

Franklin's Inside 50s: 2.16 per game (54 total). 1-2 would be effective based on a generous disposal efficiency of 70%. Don't forget they would more than be negated by the 3 Frees Against per game

Franklin's Goal Assists: 0.72 per game (18 total). This is quite low. Lloyd's average was up near 1.5 per game in 2001.


So there you have it: More goals per game, more 'general play' disposals per game, more goal assists, fewer frees against, more marks, fewer 50 metre penalties/clangers

 

[whatimtalkingbout]

Yeah i took that into consideration.

4 - 4.5 disposals is roughly 60-70% of 6.32 total 'general play' disposals per game. I thought I'd allow you to say Franklin's general play efficiency was up to 70% so you wouldn't keep whingeing about the behinds throwing his percentage out.

I am not whingeing about the behinds throwing his percentage out. That's just how Champion Data count effective disposals. There are entire manuals you can read on how they categorize each stat, maybe you should read a page or two. And it could be higher than 70%. He's a very good field kick. What's Lloyd's general play DE%? This would be different from his goalkicking efficiency of course.

Out of Lloyd's 14 possessions per game, around 6.5 were shots on goal (compared to Franklin's 9), which means around 7.5 were general play possessions. Given that his disposal efficiency was between 70-80%, then this means he had on average more than 1 'general play' disposal than Franklin. I wouldn't usually be so pedantic, but I used that to demonstrate to you that Franklin actually contributed less in general play than Lloyd did.

We already knew that he had 1 more 'general play' disposal without calculating the DE% didn't we? I don't understand what you're trying to tell me here. And i don't know how you got the 9 shots on goal, i hope you are not just getting this from what you heard on talkback radio or Channel 9, those shots on goal did drop off toward the end of the year anyway.

By the way, Lloyd's DE% overall is not to be confused with his 'general play' DE%

Franklin's Inside 50s: 2.16 per game (54 total). 1-2 would be effective based on a generous disposal efficiency of 70%. Then negated by the 3 Frees Against per game.

What do the Frees Against have to do with the inside50s? Now you're just being ridiculous. 2.16 inside 50s a game. Very good. And you don't know the efficiency of his 'general play' yet, so quit it.

Franklin's Goal Assists: 0.72 per game (18 total). This is quite low. Lloyd's average was up near 1.5 per game in 2001.

Source?

By the way, the stats don't make the argument. I can bring up real good stats to say Joel Bowden08 is better than Lance Franklin08, but it doesn't make it so I'm talking Champion Data stats here too, real thorough stuff

 

[LeeARM]

I am not whingeing about the behinds throwing his percentage out. That's just how Champion Data count effective disposals. There are entire manuals you can read on how they categorize each stat, maybe you should read a page or two. And it could be higher than 70%. He's a very good field kick. What's Lloyd's general play DE%? This would be different from his goalkicking efficiency of course.

We already knew that he had 1 more 'general play' disposal without calculating the DE% didn't we? I don't understand what you're trying to tell me here. And i don't know how you got the 9 shots on goal, i hope you are not just getting this from what you heard on talkback radio or Channel 9, those shots on goal did drop off toward the end of the year anyway.

By the way, Lloyd's DE% overall is not to be confused with his 'general play' DE%

What do the Frees Against have to do with the inside50s? Now you're just being ridiculous. 2.16 inside 50s a game. Very good. And you don't know the efficiency of his 'general play' yet, so quit it.

Source?

By the way, the stats don't make the argument. I can bring up real good stats to say Joel Bowden08 is better than Lance Franklin08, but it doesn't make it so I'm talking Champion Data stats here too, real thorough stuff

it doesn't really matter how much you write, lloyd was still better

 

[whatimtalkingbout]

it doesn't really matter how much you write, lloyd was still better

Cool, whatever. Again, the relevance of the argument is very little, considering we're talking a 7th year player in Lloyd vs a 4th year player in Franklin.

 

[james_omahoney]

I am not whingeing about the behinds throwing his percentage out. That's just how Champion Data count effective disposals. There are entire manuals you can read on how they categorize each stat, maybe you should read a page or two. And it could be higher than 70%. He's a very good field kick. What's Lloyd's general play DE%? This would be different from his goalkicking efficiency of course.

We already knew that he had 1 more 'general play' disposal without calculating the DE% didn't we? I don't understand what you're trying to tell me here. And i don't know how you got the 9 shots on goal, i hope you are not just getting this from what you heard on talkback radio or Channel 9, those shots on goal did drop off toward the end of the year anyway.

By the way, Lloyd's DE% overall is not to be confused with his 'general play' DE%

What do the Frees Against have to do with the inside50s? Now you're just being ridiculous. 2.16 inside 50s a game. Very good. And you don't know the efficiency of his 'general play' yet, so quit it.

Source?

By the way, the stats don't make the argument. I can bring up real good stats to say Joel Bowden08 is better than Lance Franklin08, but it doesn't make it so I'm talking Champion Data stats here too, real thorough stuff

9 shots on goal per game
113/y = 50.22% (GA%)
Therefore y = 225
225/25 = 9 shots per game
4.52 goals, 3.52 points, 0.96 OOBOTF


If his goal efficiency is a bit over 50% and his overall efficiency is a bit under 60% then it follows that his field efficiency couldn't be much higher than 70%. Based on 2.16 inside 50s, that's approximately 1.5 are effective.

Same with effective disposals. 70% of 6.32 is about 4.5 per game.

Even if we were to go ahead and say all of his inside 50s were accurate, then that leaves a gap where the inaccuracies have to fall. Were they stuff-ups in another area? Might be why his goal assists are so crap.

Oh and the free kicks do matter, it just shows that for anything good buddy did, he pretty much more than subtracted from it with clangers.

Source = AFL.com

I like how you challenge all the stats, then say they don't matter. Make up your mind! Haha you bozo, after you made those false comments about Lloyd and his injuries - it's like you know nothing about his career yet still have a 'guess' that Buddy would have been better .

 

[Jade]

You DO realise that champion data provide an effective disposal rate AND a goalscoring efficiency rate, don't you? ... On second thoughts, you probably don't know that .

The fact is that Buddy's efficiency is consistently 10-20%, and as much as 30%, lower than any other AA player in the competition. If you're going to say that Buddy's percentage is skewed because of his shots at goal then you're going to have to provide something tangible. Otherwise, suck it up!

Therefore I'll reiterate:

• on average 40% of Buddy's inside 50s were inefficient;
• He gave away 3 free kicks per game;
• He had 0.67 bounces per game (so much for the 'run' theory)
• He had 4.79 effective disposals per game that weren't scoring shots (which is less than Lloyd in 01, btw );
• He averaged fewer marks than lloyd;
• He averaged fewer goals than lloyd;
• He averaged fewer goal assists than lloyd;

Hmmm, what a tough one

As demonstrated several times on this thread, Lloyd had a statistically superior season.

LOL @ Essendon fans

Saying that because Franklin gives away more frees then Llyod then that makes him a lesser footballer then him.
Maybe that's because the rules have changed?
So it's clearly harder for a forward to kick 100 goals in a season nowadays?

To say Llyod didn't get passed the ball as much as Franklin does is a joke.
Jarryd Roughead kicked over 70 goals in a season and Mark Williams kicked 38.
While in 2001, Scott Lucas only kicked 35 goals.
Lloyd couldn't even kick 100 goals in a Home and Away season (Like Franklin did) and he was playing in potentially one of the all-time great teams.
I highly doubt that he could get 200 shots on goal like Franklin did.

If anything, the fact that Franklin was inaccurate and still managed to kick 100 goals in a season is a greater testament to why Franklin is better then Llyod.

I like this one. Essendon had nearly double the amount of players to kick more then 10 goals for the season in 01 then Hawthorn did in 08. They had a greater spread of goal kickers and hence less of a reliance on Lloyd, who still kicked more goals per game then Franklin

Yes and Jason Dunstall broke his skull, did his knee, and only ended up playing 260 odd games due to back problems. He's been lucky to be in such good knick at 250 games, that's the point. Of course he's had his injuries, but he's going to get to 300 and that's rare air for a full forward.

So now Lloyd isn't injury free? Can't admit when you're wrong can you?

4.5 effective disposals out of 6.32 . . . how did you work this out? I told you the disposal efficiency is worked out from all possessions, not just general play, right? That's not my spin on things, that's just how Champion Data count it up. How did you calculate that Lloyd has a greater number of effective 'general play' disposals?

He certainly does have double the tackles, so applies more defensive pressure, let's say that. How you going on that inside 50 or goal assist stat? Let's get that one if we can.

Please re-read thread, a poster had a very thorough explanation which showed the very wide discrepancy here.

Are you kidding? Go back and read the first couple of pages, more neutral fans have sided to Franklin and the majority of the people voting in favour of Llyod were Essendon supporters.

Llyod in 2000/01 never had to move up the field because the team he played in hardly ever lost a match during that period of time and still Llyod never managed to get atleast 200 shots on goal for a particular season.

I checked the first couple of pages, and those neutral supporters that clearly declared their vote did so roughly equally either way. So your argument here is?

By the way, the stats don't make the argument. I can bring up real good stats to say Joel Bowden08 is better than Lance Franklin08, but it doesn't make it so I'm talking Champion Data stats here too, real thorough stuff

Man you are really struggling here.

It is what it is. Both fine players, Lloyd winning out on this topic with a close but clean poll win, with very thorough and reasoned arguments.

 

[whatimtalkingbout]

9 shots on goal per game
113/y = 50.22% (GA%)
Therefore y = 225
225/25 = 9 shots per game
4.52 goals, 3.52 points, 0.96 OOBOTF


If his goal efficiency is a bit over 50% and his overall efficiency is a bit under 60% then it follows that his field efficiency couldn't be much higher than 70%. Based on 2.16 inside 50s, that's approximately 1.5 are effective.

Same with effective disposals. 70% of 6.32 is about 4.5 per game.

Even if we were to go ahead and say all of his inside 50s were accurate, then that leaves a gap where the inaccuracies have to fall. Were they stuff-ups in another area? Might be why his goal assists are so crap.

Oh and the free kicks do matter, it just shows that for anything good buddy did, he pretty much more than subtracted from it with clangers.

Source = AFL.com

I like how you challenge all the stats, then say they don't matter. Make up your mind! Haha you bozo, after you made those false comments about Lloyd and his injuries - it's like you know nothing about his career yet still have a 'guess' that Buddy would have been better .

I thought we agreed that the stats don't tell the whole story. Again, Joel Bowden is better than Franklin according to Champion Data. Need i pull up the stats? Source = AFL.com We can debate those too.

Free kicks definitely matter, but they have no place in the argument for inside50s per game. Especially since you're still counting the free kicks against or clangers individually in an argument against Franklin. Can't have it both ways.

And again, the argument is largely irrelevant. We're talking a 4th year player versus a 7th year player. Barring a massive injury, Franklin will finish ahead of Lloyd on goal averages, disposal averages and other averages. And Franklin08 was better than Lloyd01, in my opinion.

 

[Kong]

Cool, whatever. Again, the relevance of the argument is very little, considering we're talking a 7th year player in Lloyd vs a 4th year player in Franklin.

are you serious? you've argued until you were blue in the face that franklin had a better year; you've changed your arguments each time you've been proven wrong, and now that you've got absolutely nothing left, you're pointing out the experience difference. fair enough, lloyd had 3 seasons more experience, sure. but why didn't you just say that originally, say that you thought the poll was rubbish for that reason, and move on/go from there. you've only decided that it's 'irrelevant' now that you've lost.

 

[whatimtalkingbout]

are you serious? you've argued until you were blue in the face that franklin had a better year; you've changed your arguments each time you've been proven wrong, and now that you've got absolutely nothing left, you're pointing out the experience difference. fair enough, lloyd had 3 seasons more experience, sure. but why didn't you just say that originally, say that you thought the poll was rubbish for that reason, and move on/go from there. you've only decided that it's 'irrelevant' now that you've lost.

I haven't lost. Franklin08 is the better player . . . anyone will tell you that. Call SEN, 3AW, MMM, ABC, they'll tell you the same thing. I can use stats to give you 20 better midfielders than Chris Judd when he was at West Coast, but it doesn't make it so. Some things just transcend simple figures.

 

[james_omahoney]

I thought we agreed that the stats don't tell the whole story. Again, Joel Bowden is better than Franklin according to Champion Data. Need i pull up the stats? Source = AFL.com We can debate those too.

Free kicks definitely matter, but they have no place in the argument for inside50s per game. Especially since you're still counting the free kicks against or clangers individually in an argument against Franklin. Can't have it both ways.

And again, the argument is largely irrelevant. We're talking a 4th year player versus a 7th year player. Barring a massive injury, Franklin will finish ahead of Lloyd on goal averages, disposal averages and other averages. And Franklin08 was better than Lloyd01, in my opinion.

AHAHAHAHA. So now that you realise you've lost, "THE STATS ARE DEBATABLE". I should put that in my signature! Btw, go to the stats page on AFL.com, you'll find that they're champion data and the same as every other stats site.

I never double counted clangers. i counted free kicks against in one argument, and oobotf in another.

Some would argue that 3 Frees Against per game is more significant than 1 or 2 inside 50s. I certainly would. And that was my point.

Anyway, you've got nothing left. You put up a great fight, I'll give you that, but in the end logic won through.

 

[aussieicon91]

I like this one. Essendon had nearly double the amount of players to kick more then 10 goals for the season in 01 then Hawthorn did in 08. They had a greater spread of goal kickers and hence less of a reliance on Lloyd, who still kicked more goals per game then Franklin

Despite the fact that 2 other players at Hawthorn kicked a combination of over 100 goals for the season between them? Maybe that's the reason why Hawthorn didn't have have a 'greater spread of goal kickers'?

 

[whatimtalkingbout]

AHAHAHAHA. So now that you realise you've lost, "THE STATS ARE DEBATABLE". I should put that in my signature! Btw, go to the stats page on AFL.com, you'll find that they're champion data and the same as every other stats site.

I never double counted clangers. i counted free kicks against in one argument, and oobotf in another.

Some would argue that 3 Frees Against per game is more significant than 1 or 2 inside 50s. I certainly would. And that was my point.

Anyway, you've got nothing left. You put up a great fight, I'll give you that, but in the end logic won through.

The stats themselves aren't debatable, just what they mean. Again, Joel Bowden, according to stats, is better than Lance Franklin. Read back a little, I thought we both agreed that stats don't tell the whole story. Neither does 'anecdotal' evidence apparently

You double counted free kicks against, by listing free kicks against, then saying that inside50s don't count, cos the free kicks against negate them. That's double dipping.

You can argue that if you like, doesn't make it true. Some free kicks against are professional or intentional. Some have no bearing at all. Some are just wrong.

Certainly wasn't giving away many free kicks in the defensive 50.

No I think a more valid argument would be Lloyd01 vs Fevola08. Have at it.

 

[Kong]

I haven't lost. Franklin08 is the better player . . . anyone will tell you that. Call SEN, 3AW, MMM, ABC, they'll tell you the same thing. I can use stats to give you 20 better midfielders than Chris Judd when he was at West Coast, but it doesn't make it so. Some things just transcend simple figures.

no, no, you have.
better based on what? stats aren't everything, sure, but they do give an indication. as has been covered, lloyd has franklin more than covered in nearly every area.
then how was franklin's season better? lloyd was a better and more reliable kick, mark, kick for goal.. buddy is more exciting, he's a star no doubt, because he can crumb his own dropped marks and kick bananas from the boundary.. but that's like saying paddy ryder is better than darren glass, because he is more aesthetically pleasing.

 

[whatimtalkingbout]

Despite the fact that 2 other players at Hawthorn kicked a combination of over 100 goals for the season between them? Maybe that's the reason why Hawthorn didn't have have a 'greater spread of goal kickers'?

I think Fev getting to 99 has shown that being the lone striker definitely helps.

Fev 99
Betts 25

Lloyd 100+ (including finals)
Lucas 35

Compare this to

Bradshaw 75
Brown 75

And you can see, it's a little harder when you have the twin towers going.

 

[james_omahoney]

I haven't lost. Franklin08 is the better player . . . anyone will tell you that. Call SEN, 3AW, MMM, ABC, they'll tell you the same thing. I can use stats to give you 20 better midfielders than Chris Judd when he was at West Coast, but it doesn't make it so. Some things just transcend simple figures.

"I know Jesus is real because the bible told me"

 

[james_omahoney]

The stats themselves aren't debatable, just what they mean. Again, Joel Bowden, according to stats, is better than Lance Franklin. Read back a little, I thought we both agreed that stats don't tell the whole story. Neither does 'anecdotal' evidence apparently

You double counted free kicks against, by listing free kicks against, then saying that inside50s don't count, cos the free kicks against negate them. That's double dipping.

You can argue that if you like, doesn't make it true. Some free kicks against are professional or intentional. Some have no bearing at all. Some are just wrong.

Certainly wasn't giving away many free kicks in the defensive 50.

No I think a more valid argument would be Lloyd01 vs Fevola08. Have at it.

"Source = AFL.com We can debate those too." I think we know what you meant by debatable mate. You questioned their accuracy.

It's just funny that stats are only relevant to you when they suit your argument. Early in the thread you were claiming one of buddy's pros was he had more possessions, but when it was shown that lloyd actually had more field possessions, you changed your tune.

 

[Smyth94]

Yes and Jason Dunstall broke his skull, did his knee, and only ended up playing 260 odd games due to back problems. He's been lucky to be in such good knick at 250 games, that's the point. Of course he's had his injuries, but he's going to get to 300 and that's rare air for a full forward.

Lloyd has had to reinvent himself, the very reason why Lloyd will be able to reach 300 games is because he is super professional and can play just about any role he is given.

Take this season for example - he was struggling at FF when we were getting smashed, Knights moves him out to a HFF and he starts dominating again.

I haven't lost. Franklin08 is the better player . . . anyone will tell you that. Call SEN, 3AW, MMM, ABC, they'll tell you the same thing. I can use stats to give you 20 better midfielders than Chris Judd when he was at West Coast, but it doesn't make it so. Some things just transcend simple figures.

The muppets on SEN, AW, MMM and ABC wouldn't remember what happened 7 weeks ago let alone 7 years ago. That would be the absolute worst indicator of who had the better season.

 

[whatimtalkingbout]

"Source = AFL.com We can debate those too." I think we know what you meant by debatable mate. You questioned their accuracy.

I'm sure they are accurate, i just doubt whether they present a valid argument for one player or the other. I wouldn't put Bowden in my AA team ahead of Franklin based purely on his Champion Data points.

 

[whatimtalkingbout]

Lloyd has had to reinvent himself, the very reason why Lloyd will be able to reach 300 games is because he is super professional and can play just about any role he is given.

Take this season for example - he was struggling at FF when we were getting smashed, Knights moves him out to a HFF and he starts dominating again.



The muppets on SEN, AW, MMM and ABC wouldn't remember what happened 7 weeks ago let alone 7 years ago. That would be the absolute worst indicator of who had the better season.

I wouldn't say he dominated at HF at any stage. He did alright. Regardless of why you think he got to 300 games, that's the only reason he might break the 1000 goal milestone. His average is the worst of the top FFs.

 

[LeeARM]

I wouldn't say he dominated at HF at any stage. He did alright. Regardless of why you think he got to 300 games, that's the only reason he might break the 1000 goal milestone. His average is the worst of the top FFs.

lol, he's still talking. he lost many pages ago

 

[whatimtalkingbout]

lol, he's still talking. he lost many pages ago

I'm just hoping mahoney isn't writing a massively long post. He seems to be some sort of mathematician and all his convoluted calculations are making my head swirl

 

[Kong]

end thread. please. i'm so sick of reading the ridiculous reasons for a certain poster to keep coming back to try win this argument. but i can't help but come back