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Pacman82 said:
Why is that? When our Toby Green's, Patton's, Cameron's & Coniglio's are 23 in 4 years time, we'll be a contender for the top 4. It should be a mater of our senior players competing to still be around if we keep recruiting properly.
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We don't have Greenes, Pattons, Camerons or Coniglios.
 
And our senior players aren't Wards, Palmers. Patfulls, Griffins, Johnsons and Mumfords.
 

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Hammo ramping it up again on Twitter-reckons it's time for a change and coming to a head.
@andymiles1980 @brisbanelions it's tough to say because I like a lot of people there and we're talking about jobs. But it's time for change
 
Pacman82 said:
Andrews, Keyes, Jansen, next years if we keep recruiting well.

What's the alternative to building around a strong mostly young spine?
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The point is that the Lions and GWS are not an apt comparison at similar stages because GWS have many more first round draft pics across a number of drafts. Nothing changes the numbers.
 
Haso said:
The point is that the Lions and GWS are not an apt comparison at similar stages because GWS have many more first round draft pics across a number of drafts. Nothing changes the numbers.
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My point is that we build around this lot, a plan that could be loosely comparable with GWS (Everybody knows they got more first round picks.) Still waiting to hear a better plan from anyone.... anyone?
 
Pacman82 said:
My point is that we build around this lot, a plan that could be loosely comparable with GWS (Everybody knows they got more first round picks.) Still waiting to hear a better plan from anyone.... anyone?
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I'm not arguing against that. That is literally our only choice. What I am saying is that we can't expect a similarly dramatic increase in quality of play.
 
Pacman82 said:
Why is that? When our Toby Green's, Patton's, Cameron's & Coniglio's are 23 in 4 years time, we'll be a contender for the top 4. It should be a mater of our senior players competing to still be around if we keep recruiting properly.
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Because while the premise of recruiting well and having experienced players around is a pretty common one GWS are a massive outlier in terms of the actual talent they have. There are plenty of teams that have missed in trying to do the same thing. Think of Richmond, Melbourne (although they might be finally on the right track), even North.

GWS are a extremely bad example on three fronts. The first is their draft concessions, they were huge and the number of talented players they got were insane. Secondly they were allowed to sign experienced uncontracted players to massive salaries due to salary cap concessions. Thirdly due to the affect of point one they had a massive amount of tradeable assets for them to get more experienced guns like Shaw and Griffen. They were able to get these types of players without having to sacrifice any of their draft picks. They lost some good players, but because they had so many of them, it didn't have a material affect.

I'm not saying the premise of drafting well and recruiting experienced players isn't a good one, its the main formula you have to obtaining success. But its pretty much a fallacy to point to GWS and say, look at how they've done it, we should do the same. We went after a gun player in Beams, and what did it cost us? 5, 25 and a player which is a major impact on our ability to draft more young talent. GWS trade for Shaw or Griffen and while they have to give up a good player in both instances they have an abundance of them to step in and replace them. they trade out Adams they have a coniglio, whitfield, tomlison, kelly etc etc to step up and fill the breach. They trade out Boyd and there's Patton, Lobbe, Stewart coming in.

A better example would be Hawthorn, although even they had a PP pick to get where they were. Geelong had that insane run of talented F/s to help them. The best example of it would probably be Freo actually, that would be a more realistic model to hold out as an example.

Theres nothing wrong with the premise, but to hold GWS up as the example is the issue, as stated in my original post.
 
Fatcat08 said:
Because while the premise of recruiting well and having experienced players around is a pretty common one GWS are a massive outlier in terms of the actual talent they have. There are plenty of teams that have missed in trying to do the same thing. Think of Richmond, Melbourne (although they might be finally on the right track), even North.

GWS are a extremely bad example on three fronts. The first is their draft concessions, they were huge and the number of talented players they got were insane. Secondly they were allowed to sign experienced uncontracted players to massive salaries due to salary cap concessions. Thirdly due to the affect of point one they had a massive amount of tradeable assets for them to get more experienced guns like Shaw and Griffen. They were able to get these types of players without having to sacrifice any of their draft picks. They lost some good players, but because they had so many of them, it didn't have a material affect.

I'm not saying the premise of drafting well and recruiting experienced players isn't a good one, its the main formula you have to obtaining success. But its pretty much a fallacy to point to GWS and say, look at how they've done it, we should do the same. We went after a gun player in Beams, and what did it cost us? 5, 25 and a player which is a major impact on our ability to draft more young talent. GWS trade for Shaw or Griffen and while they have to give up a good player in both instances they have an abundance of them to step in and replace them. they trade out Adams they have a coniglio, whitfield, tomlison, kelly etc etc to step up and fill the breach. They trade out Boyd and there's Patton, Lobbe, Stewart coming in.

A better example would be Hawthorn, although even they had a PP pick to get where they were. Geelong had that insane run of talented F/s to help them. The best example of it would probably be Freo actually, that would be a more realistic model to hold out as an example.

Theres nothing wrong with the premise, but to hold GWS up as the example is the issue, as stated in my original post.
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This for me is the model to follow.
 
jjami15 said:
This for me is the model to follow.
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While it would be nice to have 3 priority picks and be based in melbourne IMO I think the Crows and Freo probably more realistic targets to use as best case examples given our locations issues and lack of PP
 

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Fatcat08 said:
While it would be nice to have 3 priority picks and be based in melbourne IMO I think the Crows and Freo probably more realistic targets to use as best case examples given our locations issues and lack of PP
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I really don't know how the Crows have done it to be honest. Losing names like Danger, Tippett, Gunston, Davis in the space of a few years, on top of the tragedy they had last year and still be sitting in third is a real credit to their club and the recruiters as well to replace them the way they have.
 
Haso said:
I'm not arguing against that. That is literally our only choice. What I am saying is that we can't expect a similarly dramatic increase in quality of play.
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Fair enough, we could at least be in contention for finals footy if everything goes along swimmingly for the next 3-4 then. I admit top 4 was an exaggeration. When I made the relative comparison to GWS a few weeks ago, the main point I was trying to drive home was that the senior players can't be holding the club to ransom, it's detriment to what we should be trying to achieve. Youth policy with a handful of dedicated & loyal seniors n all that.. Anyway I'm glad we got that one sorted. Carry on then gents.:thumbsu:
 
Fatcat08 said:
It's hard to take people seriously when they point to GWS as an example of how to build a list.
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How? Perfect way to build a list. Yes the got concessions for top picks, but their trading has been just as important in shaping the list. Gold Coast got the same concessions and look where they are on the ladder. GWS showed how you develop a bucket ton of kids without scarring them like Melbourne. We need to trade like they do, recruit mature guys to take heat off the young blokes. You could argue we are currently on the Melbourne trajectory with our top picks not playing near the level they should be playing at.
 
Leemas said:
How? Perfect way to build a list. Yes the got concessions for top picks, but their trading has been just as important in shaping the list. Gold Coast got the same concessions and look where they are on the ladder. GWS showed how you develop a bucket ton of kids without scarring them like Melbourne. We need to trade like they do, recruit mature guys to take heat off the young blokes. You could argue we are currently on the Melbourne trajectory with our top picks not playing near the level they should be playing at.
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By having an incredible swag of high draft picks, and then a bucket load of extra cash, and then excellent trading (of superfluous abundance of more high draft picks)?
Yeah, I don't know why more teams don't do that.
 
Leemas said:
How? Perfect way to build a list. Yes the got concessions for top picks, but their trading has been just as important in shaping the list. Gold Coast got the same concessions and look where they are on the ladder. GWS showed how you develop a bucket ton of kids without scarring them like Melbourne. We need to trade like they do, recruit mature guys to take heat off the young blokes. You could argue we are currently on the Melbourne trajectory with our top picks not playing near the level they should be playing at.
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I think GWS had the better crop of players they could pick from in their drafts and in the players the got to select the year before their first season. Plus they've had a lot better luck with injuries compared to the Suns. That said GWS have done a good job with what they were given.
 
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