Coach Michael Voss

[quirky_clayboy]

Some fairly reactionary, revisionist statements in here. Everyone has their confirmation bias, and lo and behold, they're finding evidence to support it. I get that the last few months have been bitterly disappointing, but to all of a sudden claim it's all down to coaching (or come out of the woodwork having stayed quiet during our better patch) is faulty analysis and intellectually dishonest.

 

[Accidental genius]

Keep those arms crossed standing on the boundary… that’ll make it seem like you’re coaching.

And having that squinted look on your face => you're thinking hard about some changes?

 

[jackn]

Send him off now to 7 11 to get a bag of ice for the injured players.. at least he’ll be doing something.

He'll **** it up and come with meth and half our list will be arrested.

 

[HarryFlashman]

Some fairly reactionary, revisionist statements in here. Everyone has their confirmation bias, and lo and behold, they're finding evidence to support it. I get that the last few months have been bitterly disappointing, but to all of a sudden claim it's all down to coaching (or come out of the woodwork having stayed quiet during our better patch) is faulty analysis and intellectually dishonest.

To be fair, quite a few have always had issue with Voss & were vehemently shouted down on the back of finals last season, its the exact same problems being brought back to the forefront

 

[IMTOPS]

Some fairly reactionary, revisionist statements in here. Everyone has their confirmation bias, and lo and behold, they're finding evidence to support it. I get that the last few months have been bitterly disappointing, but to all of a sudden claim it's all down to coaching (or come out of the woodwork having stayed quiet during our better patch) is faulty analysis and intellectually dishonest.

Bunkum

The issues apparent haven’t subsided after 3 years.

Better patch? Most of those wins were achieved in short bursts and not attributable to a strong 4 quarter effort.

There are 3 years of coaching to support the argument he is tactically inept and unable to achieve a consistency in effort. The Voss game plan has failed. Is it all his fault? Definitely not, but I ask the question - if Sam Mitchell was coaching Carlton - would we be a better team?? I think yes.

 

[Blue1980]

I think having the playing list as banged up as it is, today’s result was inevitable with whoever was coaching, plus the half a dozen in game injuries.

I’m not convinced he is the guy, he probably isn’t, but they will do a lot of other changes to playing personnel and fitness and assistants in the off season I believe.

If we can get a decent run at it injury wise, which by getting rid of half a dozen who never play shouldn’t be hard to get a better one than this year, I still think we can be in contention.

Changes have to be made though.

 

[btdg]

Hmmm... on the one hand Voss has managed a 39-1-29 (57%) winning record as a coach, including a 2-1 finals record, and taken us to our first preliminary finals appearance in two decades. He's objectively the best coach we have had this millenium and since Parkin (which is a bit like being the best Australian female break-dancer, but is still relevant.

On the other hand, his three seasons in charge have seen us:

- start 8-2 and in third spot on the ladder, only to have a massive slump, finishing the year 4-8 and missing the finals after two disastrous last second losses in a row

- Start the season 3-1-0, have a massive form slump and go 1-8 over the next stretch (with the only win being against 18th placed West Coast), then turn it around and win 11 of the next 12 to make the prelim final. That stretch included 4 straight wins by less than a kick, including two finals.

- Start the season 5-1, have a form slump (3 losses in 4 weeks), turn it around to win 5 in a row and go two games clear in second spot, then go on a massive form slump - now 5 losses in 6 weeks and likely to miss finals again.

We have had patches in all three seasons where we have looked like premiership favourites, and patches where we can't beat anyone outside the bottom 2.

I don't really know what to make of this. He seems unable to get the team to play consistent football, or to rebound from losses. He's the 'Grand Old Duke of York' really - when we are up, we are up (and beat everyone), and when we are down we are down (for a horror stretch).

Sadly, the upshot is that we end another year of peak Cripps/Curnow/McKay/Weitering 'neither up nor down' - mid-table, outside the finals, but also locked out of decent draft picks and with no real shot of improving the list. And time is ticking on that core group...

I think Voss was probably the man for the last 3 years. I don't know anyone could have ridden out that storm last season except him, and that made for at least one enjoyable month or so, which as a Carlton supporter is pretty special. Whether he can be the man again I dunno... we saw at Brisbane that after a while it all just slowly unravelled as the group got older, young blokes didn't really get a chance to develop and they ended up with players leaving left, right and centre once the old guys retired. I expect we're probably heading for that abyss again in a few years, to be honest, but I don't know whether a change of coach helps at all.

 

[Blue By Blood]

Some fairly reactionary, revisionist statements in here. Everyone has their confirmation bias, and lo and behold, they're finding evidence to support it. I get that the last few months have been bitterly disappointing, but to all of a sudden claim it's all down to coaching (or come out of the woodwork having stayed quiet during our better patch) is faulty analysis and intellectually dishonest.

I’m not sure how it’s reactionary or recency bias.

He’s had 3 years and the same issues have persisted through his tenure. The sample size is big enough. He often talks about learnings from games but in the three years how has he used those learnings? He also talks about consistency and he made it a huge focus of our preseason (hear his best and fairest night speech). Year 1 we lose the last 4 games to miss finals. Year 2 absolutely trash through the middle part to storm home and save his job. Year 3 have top 2 in our grasp and capitulate to either miss finals or make up the numbers in a year where there’s truly no standout team. Where has the improvement been? What is our game plan? Are we an attacking team - recent lack of scoring says no. Are we a defensive team - the ability and ease for opposition to split us open says no. Are we a good stoppage team with all our big bodies - as of late no. If anything he’s actually found a way to take our main strength (contested ball winning and first use) and absolutely negate it with poor stoppage positioning and setups. The players also look utterly confused to move the ball off half back with any dare and the positioning and spread is abysmal.

We took too long to move on Marchy, Cuningham, and Martin and it played its role in derailing yet another season. We took too long to learn and held faith and look what happened.

We take too long to move on the coach and.. who knows. But our gun players aren’t getting any younger. Tasmania is coming in reasonably soon and if we fail to win a premiership, it will coincide with the need to rebuild.

He also backed in a core at Brisbane, didn’t play much youth and lost players. He’s tracking similarly with us. Keeps rehashing the same guys in the same positions and seems rigid with his selection philosophy. We haven’t had a lot of youth come in and play comparatively with other teams and as a result we don’t know where we stand on a few of them and may lose them. We can’t lose fringe or depth players continually it takes a toll.

 

[TBellicious]

same old bullshit in the presser

 

[Blue By Blood]

Hmmm... on the one hand Voss has managed a 39-1-29 (57%) winning record as a coach, including a 2-1 finals record, and taken us to our first preliminary finals appearance in two decades. He's objectively the best coach we have had this millenium and since Parkin (which is a bit like being the best Australian female break-dancer, but is still relevant.

On the other hand, his three seasons in charge have seen us:

- start 8-2 and in third spot on the ladder, only to have a massive slump, finishing the year 4-8 and missing the finals after two disastrous last second losses in a row

- Start the season 3-1-0, have a massive form slump and go 1-8 over the next stretch (with the only win being against 18th placed West Coast), then turn it around and win 11 of the next 12 to make the prelim final. That stretch included 4 straight wins by less than a kick, including two finals.

- Start the season 5-1, have a form slump (3 losses in 4 weeks), turn it around to win 5 in a row and go two games clear in second spot, then go on a massive form slump - now 5 losses in 6 weeks and likely to miss finals again.

We have had patches in all three seasons where we have looked like premiership favourites, and patches where we can't beat anyone outside the bottom 2.

I don't really know what to make of this. He seems unable to get the team to play consistent football, or to rebound from losses. He's the 'Grand Old Duke of York' really - when we are up, we are up (and beat everyone), and when we are down we are down (for a horror stretch).

Sadly, the upshot is that we end another year of peak Cripps/Curnow/McKay/Weitering 'neither up nor down' - mid-table, outside the finals, but also locked out of decent draft picks and with no real shot of improving the list. And time is ticking on that core group...

I think Voss was probably the man for the last 3 years. I don't know anyone could have ridden out that storm last season except him, and that made for at least one enjoyable month or so, which as a Carlton supporter is pretty special. Whether he can be the man again I dunno... we saw at Brisbane that after a while it all just slowly unravelled as the group got older, young blokes didn't really get a chance to develop and they ended up with players leaving left, right and centre once the old guys retired. I expect we're probably heading for that abyss again in a few years, to be honest, but I don't know whether a change of coach helps at all.

Well thought out and structured post.

What I will say in regards to you saying:

‘it made for at least one enjoyable month or so, which as a Carlton supporter is pretty special’....

That’s the sad thing isn’t it. We have fallen into the trap of being happy with one good month. We’ve been down so long it became let’s just make finals. Then when we made that it became oh well we gave it a good shake and missed a GF by a couple of goals. This year it became oh yeah we’ll finish top 2. Then it became we can still get top 4 even if it means interstate travel first up. Now it’s well we can still make finals possibly.

Where has the expectations gone of our supporters? Where has the desire to be the best gone? We shouldn’t be celebrating anything short of a premiership. We are no longer a rebuilding side that should be happy to scrape finals and missing it with our list demographic is diabolical.

 

[btdg]

Well thought out and structured post.

What I will say in regards to you saying:

‘it made for at least one enjoyable month or so, which as a Carlton supporter is pretty special’....

That’s the sad thing isn’t it. We have fallen into the trap of being happy with one good month. We’ve been down so long it became let’s just make finals. Then when we made that it became oh well we gave it a good shake and missed a GF by a couple of goals. This year it became oh yeah we’ll finish top 2. Then it became we can still get top 4 even if it means interstate travel first up. Now it’s well we can still make finals possibly.

Where has the expectations gone of our supporters? Where has the desire to be the best gone? We shouldn’t be celebrating anything short of a premiership. We are no longer a rebuilding side that should be happy to scrape finals and missing it with our list demographic is diabolical.

The problem is that I can 'desire to be the best' all I like... it's not going to change anything.

It's hard to acknowldge but we were sold a lemon with the rebuild. Outside of one draft (McKay/Curnow/Weitering) it was a disaster, and created all the problems we have now. We whiffed on a bunch of draft picks, gambled on a heap of former first-round busts (and all the associated confidence issues that go with that), tried to paper over the cracks with a bunch of injured older blokes, and here we are.

If you are waiting for a premiership to celebrate, I don't know what to say. You have to squint pretty hard to see this group getting out of the 6-10 range we seem to have peaked in, there's very little young talent coming through (if any?) and not a heap of flexibility to improve things much.

I think we can hope for stability and consistency... we shouldn't have to watch our team go through these massive swings where we dominate for 5-6 weeks, then fall in a heap for the next two months. WE shouldn't have to go to games expecting to be playing 2 down because someone will inevitably get injured. There's some scope for improvement, but we might as well be happy with the brief moment of brightness we had last year, because we're at least 14 months away from even matching any of that again...

 

[Soapy V]

I know it’s the modern way these days but I thought Voss’s words after the game were poor and disappointing.

IMO it was time say enough is enough and we will not tolerate those efforts by players in Navy Blue

 

[bradfisher14]

He's just not the guy to take us to the promised land unfortunately.

I think he was the right appointment for the situation we were in at the time, but he is out of his depth now.

Time to find the person to take us to the next level.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Voss was talking about our lack of consistency in the presser, but he made a point of saying it wasn't there when he arrived and still isn't there.

Well ... 3 years in Vossy ... do you think that might be your job to demand that consistency? You keep dropping Cowan, Kemp, Young, Jack Carroll etc, but you don't ever make a statement. There is easily 15 players in our side who know they're not getting dropped no matter what.

 

[bradfisher14]

Voss was talking about our lack of consistency in the presser, but he made a point of saying it wasn't there when he arrived and still isn't there.

Well ... 3 years in Vossy ... do you think that might be your job to demand that consistency? You keep dropping Cowan, Kemp, Young, Jack Carroll etc, but you don't ever make a statement. There is easily 15 players in our side who know they're not getting dropped no matter what.

Tail still wags the dog at Carlton. It's been going on for way too long.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Tail still wags the dog at Carlton. It's been going on for way too long.

But the dog is allowing it. Where is the incentive to be consistent? Selection integrity has been an issue since day dot.

 

[JJBagger]

Voss was talking about our lack of consistency in the presser, but he made a point of saying it wasn't there when he arrived and still isn't there.

Well ... 3 years in Vossy ... do you think that might be your job to demand that consistency? You keep dropping Cowan, Kemp, Young, Jack Carroll etc, but you don't ever make a statement. There is easily 15 players in our side who know they're not getting dropped no matter what.

How do we know he’s not demanding it, and the players aren’t living up to it? It looks like we have a team of players who are afraid to commit to contests and attack. Is that coaching? Is that something that can be coached? I think lumping it all on Voss is a bit unfair

 

[jpfalvo]

Some fairly reactionary, revisionist statements in here. Everyone has their confirmation bias, and lo and behold, they're finding evidence to support it. I get that the last few months have been bitterly disappointing, but to all of a sudden claim it's all down to coaching (or come out of the woodwork having stayed quiet during our better patch) is faulty analysis and intellectually dishonest.

Not all of us have been enamoured with the nexus of Sayers, Voss and Austin.

Its not revisionist for some, its chickens coming home to roost

Sent from my SM-N981B using Tapatalk

 

[jpfalvo]

I’m not sure how it’s reactionary or recency bias.

He’s had 3 years and the same issues have persisted through his tenure. The sample size is big enough. He often talks about learnings from games but in the three years how has he used those learnings? He also talks about consistency and he made it a huge focus of our preseason (hear his best and fairest night speech). Year 1 we lose the last 4 games to miss finals. Year 2 absolutely trash through the middle part to storm home and save his job. Year 3 have top 2 in our grasp and capitulate to either miss finals or make up the numbers in a year where there’s truly no standout team. Where has the improvement been? What is our game plan? Are we an attacking team - recent lack of scoring says no. Are we a defensive team - the ability and ease for opposition to split us open says no. Are we a good stoppage team with all our big bodies - as of late no. If anything he’s actually found a way to take our main strength (contested ball winning and first use) and absolutely negate it with poor stoppage positioning and setups. The players also look utterly confused to move the ball off half back with any dare and the positioning and spread is abysmal.

We took too long to move on Marchy, Cuningham, and Martin and it played its role in derailing yet another season. We took too long to learn and held faith and look what happened.

We take too long to move on the coach and.. who knows. But our gun players aren’t getting any younger. Tasmania is coming in reasonably soon and if we fail to win a premiership, it will coincide with the need to rebuild.

He also backed in a core at Brisbane, didn’t play much youth and lost players. He’s tracking similarly with us. Keeps rehashing the same guys in the same positions and seems rigid with his selection philosophy. We haven’t had a lot of youth come in and play comparatively with other teams and as a result we don’t know where we stand on a few of them and may lose them. We can’t lose fringe or depth players continually it takes a toll.

The lack of youth is a concern.
People talk about depth, but if you never see them, its not really depth... is it?

We saw this in the Ratten era, when the 2012 injury crisis appeared... the depth wasnt really that good.

Id also argue the "scapegoating/dropping" of guys like Cowan and Kemp, which we have all called out leans into thr brisbane narrative

Sent from my SM-N981B using Tapatalk

 

[jj1978]

Hmmm... on the one hand Voss has managed a 39-1-29 (57%) winning record as a coach, including a 2-1 finals record, and taken us to our first preliminary finals appearance in two decades. He's objectively the best coach we have had this millenium and since Parkin (which is a bit like being the best Australian female break-dancer, but is still relevant.

On the other hand, his three seasons in charge have seen us:

- start 8-2 and in third spot on the ladder, only to have a massive slump, finishing the year 4-8 and missing the finals after two disastrous last second losses in a row

- Start the season 3-1-0, have a massive form slump and go 1-8 over the next stretch (with the only win being against 18th placed West Coast), then turn it around and win 11 of the next 12 to make the prelim final. That stretch included 4 straight wins by less than a kick, including two finals.

- Start the season 5-1, have a form slump (3 losses in 4 weeks), turn it around to win 5 in a row and go two games clear in second spot, then go on a massive form slump - now 5 losses in 6 weeks and likely to miss finals again.

We have had patches in all three seasons where we have looked like premiership favourites, and patches where we can't beat anyone outside the bottom 2.

I don't really know what to make of this. He seems unable to get the team to play consistent football, or to rebound from losses. He's the 'Grand Old Duke of York' really - when we are up, we are up (and beat everyone), and when we are down we are down (for a horror stretch).

Sadly, the upshot is that we end another year of peak Cripps/Curnow/McKay/Weitering 'neither up nor down' - mid-table, outside the finals, but also locked out of decent draft picks and with no real shot of improving the list. And time is ticking on that core group...

I think Voss was probably the man for the last 3 years. I don't know anyone could have ridden out that storm last season except him, and that made for at least one enjoyable month or so, which as a Carlton supporter is pretty special. Whether he can be the man again I dunno... we saw at Brisbane that after a while it all just slowly unravelled as the group got older, young blokes didn't really get a chance to develop and they ended up with players leaving left, right and centre once the old guys retired. I expect we're probably heading for that abyss again in a few years, to be honest, but I don't know whether a change of coach helps at all.

Big assumption is that it was Voss that dragged us to our winning streak last season. I have a personal view.. it wasn’t, he just accepted what was put before him and went with it.

 

[TheReal99prelim]

I know it’s the modern way these days but I thought Voss’s words after the game were poor and disappointing.

IMO it was time say enough is enough and we will not tolerate those efforts by players in Navy Blue

I'm not suggesting this to be true but I will throw it out as a provocation...

Is it possible that there is some internal turmoil (something stinks personally going al the way back to GWS game), and that Voss is being a bit measured publicly for fear of making it worse???

 

[CaptainCharisma]

Going into 2025 there should 100% be pressure on Vossy if we miss the finals this year (seems likely now). Prelim to missed finals requires an immediate bounce back.

But can we please try, maybe for once... put together a list and a S&C team that can give a coach some sort of consistent player availability to build a team around and the flexibility to make changes when needed?

Since Voss has been here how many games have been missed by best 18/22 players? Would have to be the highest in the league by a long, long way. Then add on the players who are seemingly constantly playing through injuries.
We are constantly in an injury crisis and it has been the same since before even Russell.
The coach is hamstrung before they even start.

Brisbane has had an amazing run with injuries over the last 5-6 seasons until early this year when they lost a couple and they went into a tailspin. That little injury blip they had is our constant.
We are always dealing with 10+. It is a ridiculous.

Nearly every premiership team talks about health of the list being a major factor. Sure there are always hard luck stories of guys missing out on a flag with an injury but when is the last time there was a flag team dealing with double digit injury list all year?

I don't care if the issue is/was Russell, his underlings, the turf or just keeping too many injury prone blokes on the list.
Let's try and rectify that for once and see how a coach goes from there...

 

[Accidental genius]

I'm not suggesting this to be true but I will throw it out as a provocation...

Is it possible that there is some internal turmoil (something stinks personally going al the way back to GWS game), and that Voss is being a bit measured publicly for fear of making it worse???

Now that we know Russell is gone at season end, Id say it has something to do with player management/availability and MC...

 

[Sonny Jim]

I've never seen a Carlton team in 20 years of close watching destroy a classy opposition like Carlton did to Geelong - only a few weeks ago.

In fact I've never seen another AFL team destroy Geelong as comprehensively as Carlton did. I've never seen Chriss Scott so emphatic about the pressure and execution that Carlton displayed in that game.

I don't think Voss has changed his game plan since. I do know the players available for selection have changed - a lot.

Only TDK and Fantasia missing today from that team, otherwise was the same team.

I get what you're saying though, and I haven't given up on Voss like the players have up on the game today, but the way that the Hawks were drilled and effective and just mentally on and organised compared to the shambolic panic of our boys made for a pretty stark comparison.

Let's see if we can get this right next year.

 

[Opium]

I know it’s the modern way these days but I thought Voss’s words after the game were poor and disappointing.

IMO it was time say enough is enough and we will not tolerate those efforts by players in Navy Blue

Especially when you consider the occasion and celebrating our 160 years.