Coach Michael Voss

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TheReal99prelim said:
I'm not suggesting this to be true but I will throw it out as a provocation...

Is it possible that there is some internal turmoil (something stinks personally going al the way back to GWS game), and that Voss is being a bit measured publicly for fear of making it worse???
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I'm thinking there's more to this as well. Voss is coaching for his career next season.
 
2014 Richmond
Win 9 straight to scrape in to finals and go out week 1
2022 Carlton
Lose 6 out of 8 games to miss finals on percentage

2015 Richmond
Win 9 of the last 11 to miss make finals and get eliminated week 1
2023 Carlton
Win 9 of the last 10 to make a preliminary

2016 Richmond
Lose 7 of the last 9 matches to miss finals
2024 Carlton
Lost 5 out of 6 matches and look set to miss finals

Every season is different and no two journeys are the same, so I don't prescribe to "this is how it happened for them, so it'll happen for us".... I'm saying this in order to provide some form of hope during an otherwise bleak period in our journey. Not all journeys happen in a straight line. Some are a roller-coaster ride.

This is by far the hardest playing group in the league to coach. There's still a losing mentality there that we are trying to get over. And there are still holes in the list that were trying to plug. Ones that can't be plugged in two seasons. All of which is under the immense weight of expectation.

We will get there. Voss will get them there. They just aren't ready yet.
 
reg_lower91 said:
2014 Richmond
Win 9 straight to scrape in to finals and go out week 1
2022 Carlton
Lose 6 out of 8 games to miss finals on percentage

2015 Richmond
Win 9 of the last 11 to miss make finals and get eliminated week 1
2023 Carlton
Win 9 of the last 10 to make a preliminary

2016 Richmond
Lose 7 of the last 9 matches to miss finals
2024 Carlton
Lost 5 out of 6 matches and look set to miss finals

Every season is different and no two journeys are the same, so I don't prescribe to "this is how it happened for them, so it'll happen for us".... I'm saying this in order to provide some form of hope during an otherwise bleak period in our journey. Not all journeys happen in a straight line. Some are a roller-coaster ride.

This is by far the hardest playing group in the league to coach. There's still a losing mentality there that we are trying to get over. And there are still holes in the list that were trying to plug. Ones that can't be plugged in two seasons. All of which is under the immense weight of expectation.

We will get there. Voss will get them there. They just aren't ready yet.
Click to expand...

Difference between 2016 Richmond and 2024 Carlton:

Richmond were in a position to add: Dion Prestia, Toby Nankervis, and Josh Caddy.

They did so by trading out Brett Deledio and Ty Vickery and a higher selection than we will end up with (pick 6) in a draft that was talked up as being top heavy (didn't work out that way but I remember being stoked we got a top 5 selection and could do no wrong when SPS fell into our laps). They also got a 2017 first-round pick in return.

We don't have a Brett Deledio level player to trade.

We don't have the cap space to sign a Prestia level free agent.

We don't have any big value OOC players to trade out (which Vickery was before spudding it up).

The 2024 AFL Draft is not top heavy. Most draft watchers suggest you can throw a blanket over the prospects outside of the top 5 to mid-30s. Means our pick doesn't have the value that Richmond's did in that draft.

I'm not saying that we can't make big moves but I don't believe we can make the series of moves Richmond did to rectify their list issues from 2016 to 2017.

I do see the on-field comparison. Richmond people see it too. But the biggest part of their transformation was their list management position and as a result to think we're going to go from here to premiers is a heavy dose of copium.
 

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carlton_99 said:
Can you name a team that has dropped one of their top 5-10 players during a patch where the team isn't doing well?

If you look hard enough you would see the very best of the best making similar errors in times when their team is playing poorly. They won't get dropped - it is completely unrealistic.
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This is so wrong... Gws has dropped Coniglio. Swans dropped Parker. Dogs dropped liba, Melbourne dropped Salem when they went down the ladder before their premiership and other top players. Geelong has dropped Guthrie, pies Adams...... No team don't drop their absolutely best. But they certainly do drop the 5-10 mark during underwhelming periods.
 
reg_lower91 said:
2014 Richmond
Win 9 straight to scrape in to finals and go out week 1
2022 Carlton
Lose 6 out of 8 games to miss finals on percentage

2015 Richmond
Win 9 of the last 11 to miss make finals and get eliminated week 1
2023 Carlton
Win 9 of the last 10 to make a preliminary

2016 Richmond
Lose 7 of the last 9 matches to miss finals
2024 Carlton
Lost 5 out of 6 matches and look set to miss finals

Every season is different and no two journeys are the same, so I don't prescribe to "this is how it happened for them, so it'll happen for us".... I'm saying this in order to provide some form of hope during an otherwise bleak period in our journey. Not all journeys happen in a straight line. Some are a roller-coaster ride.

This is by far the hardest playing group in the league to coach. There's still a losing mentality there that we are trying to get over. And there are still holes in the list that were trying to plug. Ones that can't be plugged in two seasons. All of which is under the immense weight of expectation.

We will get there. Voss will get them there. They just aren't ready yet.
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I agree with some of your comments but the hardest in the league is a stretch.
 
JJBagger said:
How do we know he’s not demanding it, and the players aren’t living up to it? It looks like we have a team of players who are afraid to commit to contests and attack. Is that coaching? Is that something that can be coached? I think lumping it all on Voss is a bit unfair
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Very true, but as the head coach, I'm sure that if he said during team selection that "player X is out of the team this week" then that's exactly what would happen.
He believes in his players and is supporting them, but players are tired/sore/whatever and they're not giving their all for whatever reason. Some are definitely shirking contests, some are in self-preservation mode and some are wanting to play on their own terms.
I'm comfortable in him leading the team over the off-season and next year, I think he can straighten that out with a reset.

I do also think that Austin needs to be very busy this year, and I personally would be comfortable with around 6-7 list changes in favour of bringing in skilled young players with big aggression and work ethic
 
quirky_clayboy said:
Some fairly reactionary, revisionist statements in here. Everyone has their confirmation bias, and lo and behold, they're finding evidence to support it. I get that the last few months have been bitterly disappointing, but to all of a sudden claim it's all down to coaching (or come out of the woodwork having stayed quiet during our better patch) is faulty analysis and intellectually dishonest.
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I honestly don't think you know what that means.
 
SkyhorseTamer said:
This is so wrong... Gws has dropped Coniglio. Swans dropped Parker. Dogs dropped liba, Melbourne dropped Salem when they went down the ladder before their premiership and other top players. Geelong has dropped Guthrie, pies Adams...... No team don't drop their absolutely best. But they certainly do drop the 5-10 mark during underwhelming periods.
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I do remember Coniglio being omitted a few years ago but not the others however I'll take your word for it.

You also have to look at who is available underneath - you drop a Curnow as the original post mentioned as an example and it's Lemmey. That decision alone can cost you a chance at winning a game at a cruical part of the year. And that's not a shot at Lemmey - it's just a massive risk that will be scrutinised heavily by fans/media etc.
 
Seems to be in self protection mode atm, ie coaching to save his job.
Obviously he'd have hoped for better performances in the last 2 months but it might also be why he hasn't rewarded VFL form other than Cowan.
 
Prem17 said:
Seems to be in self protection mode atm, ie coaching to save his job.
Obviously he'd have hoped for better performances in the last 2 months but it might also be why he hasn't rewarded VFL form other than Cowan.
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By all reports our best player in the twos has only been here a couple of weeks.
Haven't we only won like 4 games or something?
 
My two cents:

Voss isn't the biggest problem with our coaching. We can forget about sacking him. We're locked into him and don't have the money in the FD cap to replace him even if we made the rash decision to sack him.

I position much of the blame on the high performance and the line coaches.

Aaron Hamill -- felt like a public relations move when we brought him back to the club. I'm not suggesting that I wasn't happy with it at the time I think most of us were. However, he was heavily criticized at St. Kilda when he was a coach there. The backline was a strong unit - our best line - when he came on board and it's gone backward.

Tim Clarke -- how can you turn the midfield from one of the best in the league to one of the worst overnight? I understand injuries haven't helped, however, the connection between the defense and the forward line has been dysfunctional at best this year and outright terrible at worst. Most of our mids fail to go both ways and they look lost when they try. A quality midfield coach would get the talent that is there on the right track. We got him back from the Gold Coast Suns (the less said the better).

Jordan Russell -- struggled as a midfield coach at the Dogs before getting sacked in the Covid-related sackings. The Dogs midfield immediately reemerged as a force after his departure and helped drive them to the 2021 AFL Grand Final. He then joined North Melbourne as an assistant under David Noble (development was excruciatingly slow and stagnant). He survived the cull when Clarko first came on but they were good with letting him go after last season. Our forward line was functioning significantly better in the second half of 2023 and almost overnight has regressed back to the nothingness of the first half of last year (regardless of injuries).

What I would do:

1. Terminate all three

2. Spread the money between Andy Russell's salary and what these three have been paid over 3 quality assistant coaches (which was promised to Vossy and Ash Hansen when they signed up) and replace them with quality.

3. Sign a high-performance coach with a "smarter not harder" philosophy. I'd rather spread the FD spend across 4 good coaches rather than putting our eggs in one basket.
 
JJBagger said:
How do we know he’s not demanding it, and the players aren’t living up to it? It looks like we have a team of players who are afraid to commit to contests and attack. Is that coaching? Is that something that can be coached? I think lumping it all on Voss is a bit unfair
Click to expand...

You quoted me so you already know how I know he's not demanding it, because I said it in that post. Who has he dropped in 3 years in order to make a statement? He never, ever drops a name player. He drops fringe players only. The closest he has come to making a statement is dropping Hewett, but Hewett isn't a top 10 player.
 

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The Old Dark Navy's said:
You quoted me so you already know how I know he's not demanding it, because I said it in that post. Who has he dropped in 3 years in order to make a statement? He never, ever drops a name player. He drops fringe players only. The closest he has come to making a statement is dropping Hewett, but Hewett isn't a top 10 player.
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Who do you think should be dropped in our top 10 and what would their replacements be in your opinion?
 
carlton_99 said:
Who do you think should be dropped in our top 10 and what would their replacements be in your opinion?
Click to expand...

Right now ... nobody. We have nobody left in the shed. We have blooded no new players so that they can be next man up.

Over the journey ... Cerra should have been dropped to find fitness and form in the VFL. There have been times when Williams deserved to be dropped. There was an occasion where McKay deserved to be dropped.

The point is that when we lost a game, it is the same few fringe players in and out on a rotational basis, because Voss trusts the others to bounce back. But they can not bounce back and perform for 5 or 6 weeks and they'll still keep their spots.

If someone told you at 11-4, that we would lose 5 of the next 6 games, and that most of our players would look terrible in the process, would you have liked to see a couple of new players get some senior games under their belt, so at least we got a look at them at the level and maybe ... possibly see something in them that wasn't particularly showing out in a poor VFL side?
 
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Soapy V said:
I know it’s the modern way these days but I thought Voss’s words after the game were poor and disappointing.

IMO it was time say enough is enough and we will not tolerate those efforts by players in Navy Blue
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I thought the same after his presser after the Pies loss. At the time I put it down to perhaps him being weighed down by the full extent of the injury crisis (worse that what the general public know), but to talk so matter of fact and blaming previous regimes for inconsistency after watching what was easily our worst performance of the year was pretty average from a guy who was a great leader as a player.

That said I think the entire club needs to have a hard look at itself. The players talk a lot about how much they want success and how much the club history means to them then serve up insipid displays like that. I’m also not sure we can say we are very good at any of list management, fitness, coaching and player development. The whole club needs to lift or the painful rebuild we started in 2015 is not going to deliver a flag.
 
Wickzki said:
My two cents:

Voss isn't the biggest problem with our coaching. We can forget about sacking him. We're locked into him and don't have the money in the FD cap to replace him even if we made the rash decision to sack him.

I position much of the blame on the high performance and the line coaches.

Aaron Hamill -- felt like a public relations move when we brought him back to the club. I'm not suggesting that I wasn't happy with it at the time I think most of us were. However, he was heavily criticized at St. Kilda when he was a coach there. The backline was a strong unit - our best line - when he came on board and it's gone backward.

Tim Clarke -- how can you turn the midfield from one of the best in the league to one of the worst overnight? I understand injuries haven't helped, however, the connection between the defense and the forward line has been dysfunctional at best this year and outright terrible at worst. Most of our mids fail to go both ways and they look lost when they try. A quality midfield coach would get the talent that is there on the right track. We got him back from the Gold Coast Suns (the less said the better).

Jordan Russell -- struggled as a midfield coach at the Dogs before getting sacked in the Covid-related sackings. The Dogs midfield immediately reemerged as a force after his departure and helped drive them to the 2021 AFL Grand Final. He then joined North Melbourne as an assistant under David Noble (development was excruciatingly slow and stagnant). He survived the cull when Clarko first came on but they were good with letting him go after last season. Our forward line was functioning significantly better in the second half of 2023 and almost overnight has regressed back to the nothingness of the first half of last year (regardless of injuries).

What I would do:

1. Terminate all three

2. Spread the money between Andy Russell's salary and what these three have been paid over 3 quality assistant coaches (which was promised to Vossy and Ash Hansen when they signed up) and replace them with quality.

3. Sign a high-performance coach with a "smarter not harder" philosophy. I'd rather spread the FD spend across 4 good coaches rather than putting our eggs in one basket.
Click to expand...
all these appointments fall back on 1 person that's the football manager brad lloyd where's he in all this
 
Soapy V said:
I know it’s the modern way these days but I thought Voss’s words after the game were poor and disappointing.

IMO it was time say enough is enough and we will not tolerate those efforts by players in Navy Blue
Click to expand...

In the BA fan cams, people were looking for something harder. Something to say we weren't going to mollycoddle these boys any more.

Even Cripps after the game was all about togetherness and a chance to redeem themselves. Inside he must be incredibly frustrated, but they think they are going to keep us onside by saying 'nothing to see here, on to next week'.

Let them and us know ... it isn't good enough, we have let ourselves and our supporters down.

As it stands, nobody wants to leave the club so we aren't having those surprise draft picks landing in our laps. We are content to keep the players happy, so we go into each season with the slightest of incremental improvements, while every club around us is trying to improve just to keep up with each other.

We are all about internal improvement, maxing out our cap on a few stars and hoping 15 role players will step up each week to support them. There is no pressure to perform in this side.

People will say that we don't know what is happening behind closed doors, but you always hear through the grapevine when coaches have read the riot act. Some you can see it and hear it in their tone, that there will be consequences. Voss just talks about how he knows and trusts this group, as though that will them to win for him. The reality is that will just extend his tenure as he won't lose the support of the core group, just those he refused to play.
 
GT619 said:
all these appointments fall back on 1 person that's the football manager brad lloyd where's he in all this
Click to expand...

beans GIF
 
Wickzki said:
My two cents:

Voss isn't the biggest problem with our coaching. We can forget about sacking him. We're locked into him and don't have the money in the FD cap to replace him even if we made the rash decision to sack him.

I position much of the blame on the high performance and the line coaches.

Aaron Hamill -- felt like a public relations move when we brought him back to the club. I'm not suggesting that I wasn't happy with it at the time I think most of us were. However, he was heavily criticized at St. Kilda when he was a coach there. The backline was a strong unit - our best line - when he came on board and it's gone backward.

Tim Clarke -- how can you turn the midfield from one of the best in the league to one of the worst overnight? I understand injuries haven't helped, however, the connection between the defense and the forward line has been dysfunctional at best this year and outright terrible at worst. Most of our mids fail to go both ways and they look lost when they try. A quality midfield coach would get the talent that is there on the right track. We got him back from the Gold Coast Suns (the less said the better).

Jordan Russell -- struggled as a midfield coach at the Dogs before getting sacked in the Covid-related sackings. The Dogs midfield immediately reemerged as a force after his departure and helped drive them to the 2021 AFL Grand Final. He then joined North Melbourne as an assistant under David Noble (development was excruciatingly slow and stagnant). He survived the cull when Clarko first came on but they were good with letting him go after last season. Our forward line was functioning significantly better in the second half of 2023 and almost overnight has regressed back to the nothingness of the first half of last year (regardless of injuries).

What I would do:

1. Terminate all three

2. Spread the money between Andy Russell's salary and what these three have been paid over 3 quality assistant coaches (which was promised to Vossy and Ash Hansen when they signed up) and replace them with quality.

3. Sign a high-performance coach with a "smarter not harder" philosophy. I'd rather spread the FD spend across 4 good coaches rather than putting our eggs in one basket.
Click to expand...

None of those appointments inspired me. I didn't see what they had done previously to warrant us hiring them. It just felt like they were available. Hansen was the only one that felt like a good get.

The crazy thing for me is that Clarke is having his second go round with us. Why?
 
The Old Dark Navy's said:
None of those appointments inspired me. I didn't see what they had done previously to warrant us hiring them. It just felt like they were available. Hansen was the only one that felt like a good get.

The crazy thing for me is that Clarke is having his second go round with us. Why?
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Just when you think the old boys club mentality has been eradicated...

Hamill, Russell, Clarke.

The only thing that made sense was making amends with Hamill which could have been achieved in other ways.
 

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Coach Michael Voss

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