Coach Michael Voss

[JustaBattler]

I'll play devil's advocate then. These players were out of form for half the season. Were they told this beforehand and didn't change it and if so, why weren't they made an example of at selection? If the chat wasn't had prior to the break ... why on earth not?

I'm stoked with what they are now showing, but I'm still interested in what happened prior to that.

We are playing a very different line-up compared to 6 weeks ago and prior - because of player availability not there previously.


Here is the same list and same view.opinion I expresssed all the way through

1. Walsh/Kennedy and Hewett were not match fit because they all had major surgeries which meant (effectively) little to no pre-seasonand Cripsp was playing less than 100% for weeks.
2. Very poor defensive effectivness week in week out from Fisher/Motlop/Durdin in particular
3. Remarkable decline in form in Young and declining defensive impact by Docherty in particular - in the later's case more than offset by his positive impact on wings and on ball rotation
4. Clear structural issues in lack of HFF 'presence' and effectiveness - constrained by player availability.

Voss has been dropping poor form and rewarding good form on a like for like basis - all year.

The following off the top of my head have bene dropped for various reasons and reinstated and improved since:

Motlop/Silvagni/Kennedy/Hewett/Kemp/Cincotta/Cowan

the following have been added as they over came injury /rehab: ALL have had positive impact compared to who they replaced

Cuningham/Owies/Martin/Pittonet/TDK/Boyd/Hollands/Cottrell/Fogarty

Blokes that have been given a good run but are probably now fringe depending on further injury: Ed Curnow | Fisher and Honey

The team has not only suffered from lack of form from too many players -but also lack of continuity due to injuries.

I am amazed at the confidence that so many have in coming games as the side is now severely compromised in terms of quality until both Wlsh and Cerra get back as well as Harry - unfortunately I dont expect to see two other back this year in Jack and Kennedy.

I rate the win against Collingwood as the best in two years - given the outs.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

We are playing a very different line-up compared to 6 weeks ago and prior - because of player availability not there previously.


Here is the same list and same view.opinion I expresssed all the way through

1. Walsh/Kennedy and Hewett were not match fit because they all had major surgeries which meant (effectively) little to no pre-seasonand Cripsp was playing less than 100% for weeks.
2. Very poor defensive effectivness week in week out from Fisher/Motlop/Durdin in particular
3. Remarkable decline in form in Young and declining defensive impact by Docherty in particular - in the later's case more than offset by his positive impact on wings and on ball rotation
4. Clear structural issues in lack of HFF 'presence' and effectiveness - constrained by player availability.

Voss has been dropping poor form and rewarding good form on a like for like basis - all year.

The following off the top of my head have bene dropped for various reasons and reinstated and improved since:

Motlop/Silvagni/Kennedy/Hewett/Kemp/Cincotta/Cowan

the following have been added as they over came injury /rehab: ALL have had positive impact compared to who they replaced

Cuningham/Owies/Martin/Pittonet/TDK/Boyd/Hollands/Cottrell/Fogarty

Blokes that have been given a good run but are probably now fringe depending on further injury: Ed Curnow | Fisher and Honey

The team has not only suffered from lack of form from too many players -but also lack of continuity due to injuries.

I am amazed at the confidence that so many have in coming games as the side is now severely compromised in terms of quality until both Wlsh and Cerra get back as well as Harry - unfortunately I dont expect to see two other back this year in Jack and Kennedy.

I rate the win against Collingwood as the best in two years - given the outs.

Player availability? That's what you want to put the turn around to?

Did you notice that Harry, Kennedy, Walsh, Silvagni were all missing going into the game on Friday? Oh and then our best player in Cerra went off half way through? Add to that Cripps hasn't exactly been anywhere near his best the last 6 matches either...

We fielded a much stronger side on paper for 2 months prior to the Port Adelaide game where we lost Harry in the first quarter and still belted them by 50+

Why is it hard for you to accept that there was improvement across the board? Coaches and players improved things... yet you seem obsessed to continuously cack on about the sack Voss brigade... of which there were only a few at the time anyway.

It's hard to get a word from you without you mentioning the handful of people that were calling for Voss' head... even after 6 wins in a row you're still triggered by it... maybe time to let it go and just enjoy the way the team is playing?

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

We are playing a very different line-up compared to 6 weeks ago and prior - because of player availability not there previously.


Here is the same list and same view.opinion I expresssed all the way through

1. Walsh/Kennedy and Hewett were not match fit because they all had major surgeries which meant (effectively) little to no pre-seasonand Cripsp was playing less than 100% for weeks.
2. Very poor defensive effectivness week in week out from Fisher/Motlop/Durdin in particular
3. Remarkable decline in form in Young and declining defensive impact by Docherty in particular - in the later's case more than offset by his positive impact on wings and on ball rotation
4. Clear structural issues in lack of HFF 'presence' and effectiveness - constrained by player availability.

Voss has been dropping poor form and rewarding good form on a like for like basis - all year.

The following off the top of my head have bene dropped for various reasons and reinstated and improved since:

Motlop/Silvagni/Kennedy/Hewett/Kemp/Cincotta/Cowan

the following have been added as they over came injury /rehab: ALL have had positive impact compared to who they replaced

Cuningham/Owies/Martin/Pittonet/TDK/Boyd/Hollands/Cottrell/Fogarty

Blokes that have been given a good run but are probably now fringe depending on further injury: Ed Curnow | Fisher and Honey

The team has not only suffered from lack of form from too many players -but also lack of continuity due to injuries.

I am amazed at the confidence that so many have in coming games as the side is now severely compromised in terms of quality until both Wlsh and Cerra get back as well as Harry - unfortunately I dont expect to see two other back this year in Jack and Kennedy.

I rate the win against Collingwood as the best in two years - given the outs.

I didn't see anything in the tracker numbers that suggested those players weren't fit. They were just not playing the way they are now.

I speculated weeks back whether the likes of Motlop could slot into this new team and look a lot better and he did.

We are missing Walsh, Kennedy, McKay and now Cerra. It's not about who is missing. It is about the plan and the commitment to the plan.

The coaches found the right button to push to get buy in.

 

[JustaBattler]

I didn't see anything in the tracker numbers that suggested those players weren't fit. They were just not playing the way they are now.

I speculated weeks back whether the likes of Motlop could slot into this new team and look a lot better and he did.

We are missing Walsh, Kennedy, McKay and now Cerra. It's not about who is missing. It is about the plan and the commitment to the plan.

The coaches found the right button to push to get buy in.

Are you seriously putting that players available to play have no bearing on winning or losing ? Seriously?

 

[JustaBattler]

Player availability? That's what you want to put the turn around to?

I think the inclusion of Cuningham , Martin and Fogarty in particular has had demonstrably massive impact on forward effectiveness. If you want to pretnd that player selection has nothing to do with results - hey you are welcome to that view. Personally I'd rather have Walsh/Kennedy/Cerra/McKay and Silvagni available than not - and if games dont go the way planned I will suggest that there unavailability was a factor.

Did you notice that Harry, Kennedy, Walsh, Silvagni were all missing going into the game on Friday? Oh and then our best player in Cerra went off half way through? Add to that Cripps hasn't exactly been anywhere near his best the last 6 matches either...

Yes indeed it was a magnificent win under the circumstances oh and Cripps form has massively improved over the last 3 weeks as he has got over his ankle issue - despite obvioiusly still encumbered by his corked thigh.

We fielded a much stronger side on paper for 2 months prior to the Port Adelaide game where we lost Harry in the first quarter and still belted them by 50+

disagree

Why is it hard for you to accept that there was improvement across the board? Coaches and players improved things... yet you seem obsessed to continuously cack on about the sack Voss brigade... of which there were only a few at the time anyway.

Where have I ever failed to accept improvement in peformance? It certainly has had NOTHING to do with Voss learning anything, changing his game plan, simplifying things...it is ALL on the players actually pulling their collective fingers out and making tackles and going harder at contests. Exactly what Voss has been asking of teh team all year.

It's hard to get a word from you without you mentioning the handful of people that were calling for Voss' head... even after 6 wins in a row you're still triggered by it... maybe time to let it go and just enjoy the way the team is playing?

I have not mentioned one poster by name - ever so stop with all the makey-uppy I dont need your advice about how to enjoy watching the football either- I enjoy watching Carlton play win lose or draw - and I like to have a view on why .

 

[thylacine60]

Player availability? That's what you want to put the turn around to?

Did you notice that Harry, Kennedy, Walsh, Silvagni were all missing going into the game on Friday? Oh and then our best player in Cerra went off half way through? Add to that Cripps hasn't exactly been anywhere near his best the last 6 matches either...

We fielded a much stronger side on paper for 2 months prior to the Port Adelaide game where we lost Harry in the first quarter and still belted them by 50+

Why is it hard for you to accept that there was improvement across the board? Coaches and players improved things... yet you seem obsessed to continuously cack on about the sack Voss brigade... of which there were only a few at the time anyway.

It's hard to get a word from you without you mentioning the handful of people that were calling for Voss' head... even after 6 wins in a row you're still triggered by it... maybe time to let it go and just enjoy the way the team is playing?

"handful" now - by the time this is all over they'll be saying they wanted his contract extended but it got all mucked up by autocorrect ........

 

[Blue_Fusion]

I think the inclusion of Cuningham , Martin and Fogarty in particular has had demonstrably massive impact on forward effectiveness. If you want to pretnd that player selection has nothing to do with results - hey you are welcome to that view. Personally I'd rather have Walsh/Kennedy/Cerra/McKay and Silvagni available than not - and if games dont go the way planned I will suggest that there unavailability was a factor.

Yeah I agree they have made a difference. But Motlop has been pretty good too since he came back in... he was there a couple of months ago...

I never said player selection has nothing to do with results...

Yes indeed it was a magnificent win under the circumstances oh and Cripps form has massively improved over the last 3 weeks as he has got over his ankle issue - despite obvioiusly still encumbered by his corked thigh.

Cripps input has improved, part because of himself but also big part due to everyone around him elevating their game as well.

disagree

Two months ago we had all of our key players out there bar probably Jack Martin and Cunners. You might want to argue they're more important than Kennedy and McKay but they're not. Also Fog was available for selection...

Where have I ever failed to accept improvement in peformance? It certainly has had NOTHING to do with Voss learning anything, changing his game plan, simplifying things...it is ALL on the players actually pulling their collective fingers out and making tackles and going harder at contests. Exactly what Voss has been asking of teh team all year.

Voss said it himself, there were important discussions among the leaders and coaches and among all the coaches themselves... don't give me that crap still.

I have not mentioned one poster by name - ever so stop with all the makey-uppy I dont need your advice about how to enjoy watching the football either- I enjoy watching Carlton play win lose or draw - and I like to have a view on why .

Where did I say you mention posters by name? Rather, you continuously mention a minority of people simply because they had a different view to yours...

Good that you mention that you like to enjoy the footy and have a view on it... maybe now you can quit getting on the case of other people who do the same thing but have different views to yours.

Six wins on the trot including a convincing win over the Pies and still you want to bait people... strange...

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Are you seriously putting that players available to play have no bearing on winning or losing ? Seriously?

That is not what he said... come on...

 

[BlueGum]

Mots has been good in his recent games. No way was he playing that well before though. His tackling and pressure have been to a much higher standard.

 

[JustaBattler]

I didn't see anything in the tracker numbers that suggested those players weren't fit. They were just not playing the way they are now.

I speculated weeks back whether the likes of Motlop could slot into this new team and look a lot better and he did.

We are missing Walsh, Kennedy, McKay and now Cerra. It's not about who is missing. It is about the plan and the commitment to the plan.

The coaches found the right button to push to get buy in.

That is not what he said... come on...

My view is players win or lose games.

That is pretty much the alpha and omega of it.

I disagree that coaches can do much more than put the best team they can on the field playing as best they can as a team - doing the stuff that every coach wants their team to be doing - and the better team wins on a day by playing better.

I don't believe in rocket science plans, modern game plans versus not modern-day games plans, plan ABCXDEF&G
Complex game plans
Simple game plans
or any other sort of fairy tales.

basically any statistical descriptor of a game will reference the execution of the fundamentals versus opponents and then cite additive results over time.

Motivating players can only achieve so much - coaches arent on teh ground executing - players are.

The whole anti-Voss thing will come back - because it is a symptom of people actually believing that winning or losing speaks to the coach's ability more than the player's execution.

People will reference 'selection integrity' lack of 'alternative game plans' lack of 'tactical smarts' 'stubborness' - all sorts of stuff to point a finger at a coach instead of accepting the fact that the players as a collective ( for whatever reason(s) ) on the day - were not better than their opposition.

That is my view. If you have a problem with the view- that's fine.

 

[Bostonian]

I'll play devil's advocate then. These players were out of form for half the season. Were they told this beforehand and didn't change it and if so, why weren't they made an example of at selection? If the chat wasn't had prior to the break ... why on earth not?

I'm stoked with what they are now showing, but I'm still interested in what happened prior to that.

I don't think it's a coincidence that our form started to turn around after the fans had unloaded on the players and club for putting in such insipid efforts.


Probably didn't fancy a whole season of that so really knuckled down and did the work to get to where they should have been from the start.

 

[BLUEALLTHRU]

My view is players win or lose games.

That is pretty much the alpha and omega of it.

I disagree that coaches can do much more than put the best team they can on the field playing as best they can as a team - doing the stuff that every coach wants their team to be doing - and the better team wins on a day by playing better.

I don't believe in rocket science plans, modern game plans versus not modern-day games plans, plan ABCXDEF&G
Complex game plans
Simple game plans
or any other sort of fairy tales.

basically any statistical descriptor of a game will reference the execution of the fundamentals versus opponents and then cite additive results over time.

Motivating players can only achieve so much - coaches arent on teh ground executing - players are.

The whole anti-Voss thing will come back - because it is a symptom of people actually believing that winning or losing speaks to the coach's ability more than the player's execution.

People will reference 'selection integrity' lack of 'alternative game plans' lack of 'tactical smarts' 'stubborness' - all sorts of stuff to point a finger at a coach instead of accepting the fact that the players as a collective ( for whatever reason(s) ) on the day - were not better than their opposition.

That is my view. If you have a problem with the view- that's fine.

 

[Bostonian]

Mots has been good in his recent games. No way was he playing that well before though. His tackling and pressure have been to a much higher standard.

He's worked some of those lazy habits out of his game (for now) and is now seeing the rewards for his efforts.

 

[bourbons]

So Voss had a chat to underpeforming leaders and players did he? Did Weitering just admit to the shortcomings of the polayers peformance did he? ANy mention of lack of game plan or lack of selection integrity? How about a too complicated game plan or lack of game plan ABCDE&G?

Oh none of the stuff being posted on here by people who listen to 'radio' for 'expert' commentary?

hmm amazing.

lol, still going.

Obviously, the specific things mentioned in this particular interview with Weitering (in which he uses the phrase "for me personally" twice) constitutes the totality of changes at the club, no other factors, info or statements from others could reasonably apply

 

[Kramer1]

Mots has been good in his recent games. No way was he playing that well before though. His tackling and pressure have been to a much higher standard.

The spell was the best thing for him...appeared to be a little entitlement creeping into his game (which for mine is what happens when their is not enough rigour in selection policy, but that's an argument for another time).

That he has responded by doubling down on his effort and intensity speaks volumes for the young man.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

My view is players win or lose games.

That is pretty much the alpha and omega of it.

I disagree that coaches can do much more than put the best team they can on the field playing as best they can as a team - doing the stuff that every coach wants their team to be doing - and the better team wins on a day by playing better.

I don't believe in rocket science plans, modern game plans versus not modern-day games plans, plan ABCXDEF&G
Complex game plans
Simple game plans
or any other sort of fairy tales.

basically any statistical descriptor of a game will reference the execution of the fundamentals versus opponents and then cite additive results over time.

Motivating players can only achieve so much - coaches arent on teh ground executing - players are.

The whole anti-Voss thing will come back - because it is a symptom of people actually believing that winning or losing speaks to the coach's ability more than the player's execution.

People will reference 'selection integrity' lack of 'alternative game plans' lack of 'tactical smarts' 'stubborness' - all sorts of stuff to point a finger at a coach instead of accepting the fact that the players as a collective ( for whatever reason(s) ) on the day - were not better than their opposition.

That is my view. If you have a problem with the view- that's fine.

I don't have a problem with any of your views. I also don't always agree with them... sometimes I do.

You don't think a tactical move of putting Kennedy in the back line and then dropping him when he didn't perform there has anything to do with coaching... fine. I disagree.

You don't think a player showing good form in the 2's yet always missing selection over a guy who has been stinking it up for weeks hurts selection integrity... fine. I disagree.

You don't think taking every single kick in up the left wing is a coaching directive... fine. I disagree.

You don't think Voss is telling the truth when he spoke about coaches having conversations with the leaders and each other... fine. I disagree.

Why do you think professional clubs have been hiring coaches for over 100 years if all that really matters is the playing group?

Heck, in 1980 we lost Jezza and Percy Jones took over as coach.... you want to tell me he didn't have the cattle?

The anti-Voss thing has been blown up. It's a storm in a tea cup. There weren't hordes of people calling for his head... most were advocating for the club to bring in a senior mentor to help him out with some tactics.

 

[Arr0w]

So, if we make finals should we extend his contract?

Curious, especially when many want him gone, as well as assistants

 

[Sweet Seventeen]

So, if we make finals should we extend his contract?

Curious, especially when many want him gone, as well as assistants

I had serious doubts about Vossy, now we are playing so well and we will finish strongly you would have to think.
Be happy to see the club extend him for two more, reckon he deserves it.

 

[bourbons]

"handful" now - by the time this is all over they'll be saying they wanted his contract extended but it got all mucked up by autocorrect ........

Yes, "handful". Quite accurate. No more than 5-10% of regular posters in this thread, probably less ¯\(ツ)/¯

 

[skadoosh]

I assume you work on the premise that the more you write, the righter you are.

99% of what you have said supports the "intent, buy-in" side of the discussion. Most people seem to have come to an acceptance that there is no changing the mind of those with opposing views in the "game plan versus intent" debate. You apparently haven't, but posting willy nilly in a number of threads isn't suddenly making your opinion more valid.

The difference on Friday night compared to the first time, was simply intent and desire to a) pressure Collingwood into coughing the ball up, and b) create options for attacking forays by working hard to create space. That, and the availability of players better suited to playing the way we have always wanted to play.

2 big tangible, material differences for me are intent to attack and contest the man with the ball to put real pressure on the disposal/ball carrier. We used to be pros at guarding space which was faux pressure.

Number 2 - We're now much better at sticking our tackles. Not faux tackles where we are tackling the hips, but proper tackles which stops the ball carrier from disposing of the ball.

 

[bourbons]

So, if we make finals should we extend his contract?

Curious, especially when many want him gone, as well as assistants

Would wait until '24, probably at least mid-way through the season.

Would still support some turnover in the assistant ranks though if higher rated options are available.

 

[LemmingMaster]

I will admit that for a period of time, I was concerned that Voss was not exactly the coach for Carlton. We only see game day performance and there were elements of our game day play that were not great to watch.

With this turn around in form, I actually have a vision of what our "style" looks like. The most impressive aspect is the team defensive unit. Each member of the team trusts their fellow team mate to cover their man/area and shut down space nicely, knowing that a team mate will cover the space behind. Motlop's tackling on the weekend was a prime example of someone who I questioned their desire to tackle at times. I was more impressed with his game against Collingwood than the previous week when he kicked 4 early goals.

Fogarty, he was on the delist pile for me and I questioned his selection in the team, but once again, he is providing team defensive pressure and ticking many boxes. The coaching seems to be based more on roles than players and it feels very easy for each player to insert themselves into the role. Dow on the weekend when subbed in, played his role nicely, we did not expect him to be Cerra, just play his style of role.

It is always important to remember at times.

"It is never as good as it looks and never as bad as it seems"

 

[Show_Me_The_Money]

Player availability? That's what you want to put the turn around to?

Did you notice that Harry, Kennedy, Walsh, Silvagni were all missing going into the game on Friday? Oh and then our best player in Cerra went off half way through? Add to that Cripps hasn't exactly been anywhere near his best the last 6 matches either...

We fielded a much stronger side on paper for 2 months prior to the Port Adelaide game where we lost Harry in the first quarter and still belted them by 50+

Why is it hard for you to accept that there was improvement across the board? Coaches and players improved things... yet you seem obsessed to continuously cack on about the sack Voss brigade... of which there were only a few at the time anyway.

It's hard to get a word from you without you mentioning the handful of people that were calling for Voss' head... even after 6 wins in a row you're still triggered by it... maybe time to let it go and just enjoy the way the team is playing?

There's always one, or in this case, a few.

 

[JustaBattler]

I don't have a problem with any of your views. I also don't always agree with them... sometimes I do.

No problem with disagreement

You don't think a tactical move of putting Kennedy in the back line and then dropping him when he didn't perform there has anything to do with coaching... fine. I disagree.

I think Voss was keen to get both Kennedy and Hewett match fit so played them where he thought woud help - but I was skeptical about the move and said so at the time..so what?

You don't think a player showing good form in the 2's yet always missing selection over a guy who has been stinking it up for weeks hurts selection integrity... fine. I disagree.

I dont rate Dow as being good enough to be a starting on baller ahead of better options at Carlton so I understand the MC reluctance to play him - specifically because his defensive efforts are just not up to par with his available betters...that's my view- I am not alone in that - not that it would change my mind anyway _ might surprise you to hear I actually quite liek Dow and wish he could improve his defensive wrk as well as his genuine hard ball get ball capability - if he did he would be a player.

You don't think taking every single kick in up the left wing is a coaching directive... fine. I disagree.

Players make kicks and everything else on the field- if you think that aa coach tells players what to do in every circumstance and every sitiation - then you woudl be describing a coach that over coaches - there may be an argument that can be put that that is wht Voss may bhave been doing- biut that woudl be speculation in my book.

You don't think Voss is telling the truth when he spoke about coaches having conversations with the leaders and each other... fine. I disagree.

I would be surprised if it didnt happen - so what? - I bet it happens every day.

Why do you think professional clubs have been hiring coaches for over 100 years if all that really matters is the playing group?

I didnt say all that matter is the team - I said that player win and lose games on the field - you really do try hard to put words never said is it a comprehension issue or are you just trying to bait me - good luck with either.

Heck, in 1980 we lost Jezza and Percy Jones took over as coach.... you want to tell me he didn't have the cattle?

I dont knwo mate - I was playing rugby at the time and never even watched a game of AFL until 20 years later.

The anti-Voss thing has been blown up. It's a storm in a tea cup. There weren't hordes of people calling for his head... most were advocating for the club to bring in a senior mentor to help him out with some tactics.

Voss doesnt need a seniour mentor for anything - he is a seniour mentor. That is the job of a coach. Does the Collingwood coach have a seniour mentor? Are you suggesting that the Collingwood coach is a better coach than Voss - if so why so? Is it because they are top of the ladder? How about Clarkson - does he need a seniour mentor - because of where his team sits on the ladder? How about the WC coach - does he? How about the GWs coach do you think he thinks he needs a seniour mentor?

 

[jj1978]

So, if we make finals should we extend his contract?

Curious, especially when many want him gone, as well as assistants

If he happens to make finals this year, he'd deserve a 1 year extension for the short term. If he gets us to a prelim at minimal in 2024 then another follow up 2 year extension would be justified at the end of next season. Hansen is the big piece to the puzzle as he's the one viewed as the tactician, I still would love to bolster that aspect of our coaching ranks and further enhance our development team if possible (which may require letting go of some existing development coaches).