Coach Michael Voss

[JustaBattler]

lol, still going.

Obviously, the specific things mentioned in this particular interview with Weitering (in which he uses the phrase "for me personally" twice) constitutes the totality of changes at the club, no other factors, info or statements from others could reasonably apply

yes mate - whatever you spray.

 

[blues4flag]

We're arguing things that nobody - not even the players nor the coaches, could point to one way or the other say "yep, that was it".

But we love stories, and the romantic in me is drawn to the Curnow Camp and the events surrounding it.

So here is blues4flag's Definitive Version of Events that led to the great form revival.

The Carlton players were gathered around the campfire in Torquay. They had broken into their separate factions, animosity amongst the playing group still high after a demoralising 8 weeks. The Voss Loyalists stood to one side, the Dissenters to the other. Ollie Hollands, arm in a cast, stood alongside Cowan and the other recruits who had yet to be drawn into the drama. He wasn't really sure what to expect, and shot nervous glances towards Weitering. The Weiterbot had been out of whack for a couple of months, but Ollie could almost see the reformatting taking place.

Still, there was a quiet optimism in the air as the light of the campfire illuminated the panels adorning Curnow's home. Ollie reckoned it looked pretty garish, the tired hues of red, blue and yellow in stark contrast to the rest of the house. Still, the romance of it all wasn't lost on him. An avid Carlton supporter growing up, it felt fitting that they sat beneath the timber of the old Pratt Stand. The sweat of countless millions of supporters was soaked in the wood, witnesses to the great Carlton teams of the 70s, 80s and 90s.

He'd noticed the club leaders huddled tightly in heated conversations all week. Cripps, Weitering and the other senior players. The coaching staff. Even Cook and Sayers. The rest of the team wasn't privy to the discussions, but the forlorn looks of the past few weeks slowly subsided and were replaced by a steely resolve. Tensions were high, but he thought he sensed solidarity that hadn't been there previously.

Brian Cook, Michael Voss and Patrick Cripps

9

Patrick Cripps

Age

29

Ht

195cm

Wt

93kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

25.9

5star

K

9.8

4star

HB

16.1

5star

M

3.4

3star

T

5.8

5star

CL

7.4

5star

D

21.0

5star

K

10.1

4star

HB

10.9

5star

M

2.5

3star

T

3.8

4star

CL

6.3

5star

D

12.6

4star

K

4.8

2star

HB

7.8

5star

M

2.0

3star

T

3.2

5star

CL

1.4

4star

walked towards the campfire with all the gravitas you would expect from the AFL's greatest-ever administrator, a three-time premiership captain and the reigning Brownlow Medalist. In their hands, they each carried what looked to be offcuts of timber from the Pratt Stand. In unison, they tossed the wood into the campfire. The fire roared to life, burning a brilliant blue as the paint caught and burned. For a second, Ollie swore he saw the face of Sticks Kernahan staring at him out of the dancing flames.

Cook looked around at the group. The players had shifted closer together, the factions not so fractured as they were a moment ago.

"We are Carlton. **** the rest".

 

[bourbons]

yes mate - whatever you spray.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

I think Voss was keen to get both Kennedy and Hewett match fit so played them where he thought woud help - but I was skeptical about the move and said so at the time..so what?

It was a baffling move (among others) and when it wasn't working, Kennedy got dropped...

I dont rate Dow as being good enough to be a starting on baller ahead of better options at Carlton so I understand the MC reluctance to play him - specifically because his defensive efforts are just not up to par with his available betters...that's my view- I am not alone in that - not that it would change my mind anyway _ might surprise you to hear I actually quite liek Dow and wish he could improve his defensive wrk as well as his genuine hard ball get ball capability - if he did he would be a player.

Not just Dow... but selection should go beyond that. In order to drive standards you need accountability. Dow in this example probably isn't the perfect fix, but if he gets selected and it lights a fire under the arse of a bloke who has been dropped because they've been well below standard, then that's a win-win.

At the same time, if the bloke who gets dropped decides to chuck a tanty over it then **** off afaic..

Players make kicks and everything else on the field- if you think that aa coach tells players what to do in every circumstance and every sitiation - then you woudl be describing a coach that over coaches - there may be an argument that can be put that that is wht Voss may bhave been doing- biut that woudl be speculation in my book.

Never said that... but ok... draw your own conclusions...

Like I said, being overly predictable every time we bring the ball back into play from the back line and hoping for a contested mark to get us going is a recipe for disaster.

I would be surprised if it didnt happen - so what? - I bet it happens every day.

So you don't think any changes came out of those discussions? Nothing eventuate out of them? Maybe they had them to pass the time by...

I didnt say all that matter is the team - I said that player win and lose games on the field - you really do try hard to put words never said is it a comprehension issue or are you just trying to bait me - good luck with either.

Funny. You're quite happy to put words that were never said for others...

It isn't just down to players...

I dont knwo mate - I was playing rugby at the time and never even watched a game of AFL until 20 years later.

Which is why it isn't just down to players. Many past players themselves believed that Percy wasn't the right bloke for the job and it really hurt them in 1980 when they were bundled out badly...

Coaches set standards, motivate, devise game plans and tactics, mentor etc.

When a talented list of players is performing like crap for 2 months, playing uninspiring, unmotivated football do you really think it's worth holding a grudge against people who questioned the standards being set?

Do you really think that Jack Martin and Cuningham coming in suddenly just turned us into a top 4 side? Come on.

Voss doesnt need a seniour mentor for anything - he is a seniour mentor. That is the job of a coach. Does the Collingwood coach have a seniour mentor? Are you suggesting that the Collingwood coach is a better coach than Voss - if so why so? Is it because they are top of the ladder? How about Clarkson - does he need a seniour mentor - because of where his team sits on the ladder? How about the WC coach - does he? How about the GWs coach do you think he thinks he needs a seniour mentor?

How do you know a senior mentor wouldn't be beneficial for Voss? You don't...

And if people hold that opinion and you don't, so what?

Nice list, should I provide one of coaches who benefited from it? It works both ways.. some benefit, some don't need it. Big deal.

 

[The Blue Weirdo]

Yes, "handful". Quite accurate. No more than 5-10% of regular posters in this thread, probably less ¯\(ツ)/¯

I would say 'easily' 90% of the poster's questioning WTF is going on as we slumped to 15th place with a strong playing list and bugger all injuries didn't want a coach sacked mid-season. Most of us wanted the season to 'play out' and make the correct call before 2024.
If our system wasn't working by late August this year, then it would never work.

I believe the players meeting at Ed's was about resolving developing factions amongst the group and resulted in playing with much more intent.
Cook would have been instrumental about encouraging Voss to simplify his plan and play a more direct style.
In the end, this season has been more than saved, so now the Vossy Posse can put their guns back in their holsters and the detractors can move on and we can all celebrate the changes.

 

[Arr0w]

Seems there is a fair bit of history being rewritten at the moment

 

[carltonchelsea]

Bit flipping weird in here……
Congrats to Voss and the assistants, incredible turnaround in form.

 

[RedFury]

As others have said before, when things were going as wrong as they were for us 6 weeks ago, it's very rarely just one thing.

Pretty obvious that it's a combination of shifts in gameplan, coaching philosophy, player attitude, player leadership attitude and personnel changes - all these things combined - that's got us to where we are now.

Arguing anything else is kinda like arguing whether it's the wings, engines, flaps, fuselage or pilots that make a plane fly.

 

[JustaBattler]

It was a baffling move (among others) and when it wasn't working, Kennedy got dropped...



Not just Dow... but selection should go beyond that. In order to drive standards you need accountability. Dow in this example probably isn't the perfect fix, but if he gets selected and it lights a fire under the arse of a bloke who has been dropped because they've been well below standard, then that's a win-win.

At the same time, if the bloke who gets dropped decides to chuck a tanty over it then * off afaic..



Never said that... but ok... draw your own conclusions...

Like I said, being overly predictable every time we bring the ball back into play from the back line and hoping for a contested mark to get us going is a recipe for disaster.



So you don't think any changes came out of those discussions? Nothing eventuate out of them? Maybe they had them to pass the time by...



Funny. You're quite happy to put words that were never said for others...

It isn't just down to players...



Which is why it isn't just down to players. Many past players themselves believed that Percy wasn't the right bloke for the job and it really hurt them in 1980 when they were bundled out badly...

Coaches set standards, motivate, devise game plans and tactics, mentor etc.

When a talented list of players is performing like crap for 2 months, playing uninspiring, unmotivated football do you really think it's worth holding a grudge against people who questioned the standards being set?

Do you really think that Jack Martin and Cuningham coming in suddenly just turned us into a top 4 side? Come on.



How do you know a senior mentor wouldn't be beneficial for Voss? You don't...

And if people hold that opinion and you don't, so what?

Nice list, should I provide one of coaches who benefited from it? It works both ways.. some benefit, some don't need it. Big deal.

ok mate- you go find a better coach and a mentor to go with him or her and do whatever you want and tell Cook and CO what their business is.

I'm not in the business of sacking coaches half way through their contract - OR accounting for the irrational calls to have him sacked. Ok?

and THAT was the whole discussion fom my POV - the calls to have Voss sacked. I have never suggested that he is pefect or anyone else is pefect - everyone can be questioned but questioning isnt demnanding his head and all the other rubbish that was posted on here.

OK got it?

 

[Show_Me_The_Money]

We're arguing things that nobody - not even the players nor the coaches, could point to one way or the other say "yep, that was it".

But we love stories, and the romantic in me is drawn to the Curnow Camp and the events surrounding it.

So here is blues4flag's Definitive Version of Events that led to the great form revival.

The Carlton players were gathered around the campfire in Torquay. They had broken into their separate factions, animosity amongst the playing group still high after a demoralising 8 weeks. The Voss Loyalists stood to one side, the Dissenters to the other. Ollie Hollands, arm in a cast, stood alongside Cowan and the other recruits who had yet to be drawn into the drama. He wasn't really sure what to expect, and shot nervous glances towards Weitering. The Weiterbot had been out of whack for a couple of months, but Ollie could almost see the reformatting taking place.

Still, there was a quiet optimism in the air as the light of the campfire illuminated the panels adorning Curnow's home. Ollie reckoned it looked pretty garish, the tired hues of red, blue and yellow in stark contrast to the rest of the house. Still, the romance of it all wasn't lost on him. An avid Carlton supporter growing up, it felt fitting that they sat beneath the timber of the old Pratt Stand. The sweat of countless millions of supporters was soaked in the wood, witnesses to the great Carlton teams of the 70s, 80s and 90s.

He'd noticed the club leaders huddled tightly in heated conversations all week. Cripps, Weitering and the other senior players. The coaching staff. Even Cook and Sayers. The rest of the team wasn't privy to the discussions, but the forlorn looks of the past few weeks slowly subsided and were replaced by a steely resolve. Tensions were high, but he thought he sensed solidarity that hadn't been there previously.

Brian Cook, Michael Voss and Patrick Cripps walked towards the campfire with all the gravitas you would expect from the AFL's greatest-ever administrator, a three-time premiership captain and the reigning Brownlow Medalist. In their hands, they each carried what looked to be offcuts of timber from the Pratt Stand. In unison, they tossed the wood into the campfire. The fire roared to life, burning a brilliant blue as the paint caught and burned. For a second, Ollie swore he saw the face of Sticks Kernahan staring at him out of the dancing flames.

Cook looked around at the group. The players had shifted closer together, the factions not so fractured as they were a moment ago.

"We are Carlton. * the rest".

That. Is. Brilliant.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

ok mate- you go find a better coach and a mentor to go with him or her and do whatever you want and tell Cook and CO what their business is.

I'm not in the business of sacking coaches half way through their contract - OR accounting for the irrational calls to have him sacked. Ok?

and THAT was the whole discussion fom my POV - the calls to have Voss sacked. I have never suggested that he is pefect or anyone else is pefect - everyone can be questioned but questioning isnt demnanding his head and all the other rubbish that was posted on here.

OK got it?

Yeah... well why didn't you say so? Oh wait... you haven't stopped going on about it...

Why are you advocating for me to replace him? When did I ever call for him to be sacked? Looks like you're doing your favourite thing - putting words into people's posts...

 

[gbatman]

I assume you work on the premise that the more you write, the righter you are.

99% of what you have said supports the "intent, buy-in" side of the discussion. Most people seem to have come to an acceptance that there is no changing the mind of those with opposing views in the "game plan versus intent" debate. You apparently haven't, but posting willy nilly in a number of threads isn't suddenly making your opinion more valid.

The difference on Friday night compared to the first time, was simply intent and desire to a) pressure Collingwood into coughing the ball up, and b) create options for attacking forays by working hard to create space. That, and the availability of players better suited to playing the way we have always wanted to play.

No.

Intent to buy in is what's been fed to us.

It's part of it. If you can't see there is no change in game plan then forget ever going into coaching, never seen anything more obvious in my life.

Welcome to oppose my views, that's what a public forum is all about, it's part of why we are here, but what I see is as clear as day and I'm happy with that, because we are winning and playing the game the right way. Change is massive.

Our intent in the last round of last season was massive. Our game plan is chalk and cheese compared to Friday night.

If you can't see the different team rules that bring about changes to ball movement and how differently we approach stoppage now then that's fine, I can see it.

It's like your telling me that it's green and always has been green when it's clearly blue. There is no way this game plan has not changed radically.

You are correct on intent though. What brought that? Reckon we trained all season to have no intent for the first half of the season? F*** no. Intent comes from belief and belief comes from results. The belief that has come for us has come from a change in game plan and team rules. That is what motivates players to play hard, winning and belief. The old game plan did not bring winning and hence there was no belief and hence no motivation. The new game plan does.

 

[Earls Smother]

No.

Intent to buy in is what's been fed to us.

It's part of it. If you can't see there is no change in game plan then forget ever going into coaching, never seen anything more obvious in my life.

Welcome to oppose my views, that's what a public forum is all about, it's part of why we are here, but what I see is as clear as day and I'm happy with that, because we are winning and playing the game the right way. Change is massive.

Our intent in the last round of last season was massive. Our game plan is chalk and cheese compared to Friday night.

If you can't see the different team rules that bring about changes to ball movement and how differently we approach stoppage now then that's fine, I can see it.

It's like your telling me that it's green and always has been green when it's clearly blue. There is no way this game plan has not changed radically.

You are correct on intent though. What brought that? Reckon we trained all season to have no intent for the first half of the season? F*** no. Intent comes from belief and belief comes from results. The belief that has come for us has come from a change in game plan and team rules. That is what motivates players to play hard, winning and belief. The old game plan did not bring winning and hence there was no belief and hence no motivation. The new game plan does.

Look, I like you as a poster and I respect your right to think and post as you see fit.

I'm a bit over this debate, because it gets repetitive for others.

I'm not arguing that we haven't adjusted our game plan since round 23 last year. Although if we are 4 goals up at 3 quarter time and have 6 shots apiece (plus Charlie's under 12 snap), we are winning that game 19 out of 20 times. That's what made it so painful. It's the people who say we have come up with some cunning new game plan at round 14 that I disagree with.

Intent comes from within oneself. We were playing without it. We had the PLAYER meeting at Charlie's and have lifted our effort through the roof. That reflects in every aspect of our game, without actually changing the game plan.

If we go out this week and are outworked by St. Kilda and lose, is that because our game plan is shit again? No, it will be because our intent has dropped off and everything else falls away as a result.

Whatever we have done to improve, I hope we keep doing it. If we see the "whatever" differently, so be it. We'll still enjoy the end result.

 

[NewDarkNavyBlues]

I’m still skeptical on Voss. But I’d love to be proven wrong. We haven’t made finals yet and that is the expectation.

 

[JustaBattler]

Yeah... well why didn't you say so? Oh wait... you haven't stopped going on about it...

Why are you advocating for me to replace him? When did I ever call for him to be sacked? Looks like you're doing your favourite thing - putting words into people's posts...

Going on about what exactly? If you havent noticed all Ive done for weeks now is repsond to the offended on this topic and teh offended by my responses keep on asking the same questions over and over and over again - like you today. I find it amusing enough when I ignore the infnatile passive aggressiveness - which comes with the territory of keyboards.

 

[bourbons]

Seems there is a fair bit of history being rewritten at the moment

Indeed.

Reading some of this you'd be forgiven for thinking every 2nd post here 6 weeks ago was just "sack Voss"

 

[bourbons]

Going on about what exactly? If you havent noticed all Ive done for weeks now is repsond to the offended on this topic and teh offended by my responses keep on asking the same questions over and over and over again - like you today. I find it amusing enough when I ignore the infnatile passive aggressiveness - which comes with the territory of keyboards.

Ha, not exactly true mate.

Post #4777 of yours - someone made an innocuous and feelgood type reference to Weitering's comments from an SEN interview. You chose to use this as an opening to make a snide sarcastic post potting people who thought the gameplan had improved or changed.

Talk about infantile passive aggressiveness lol

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

My view is players win or lose games.

That is pretty much the alpha and omega of it.

I disagree that coaches can do much more than put the best team they can on the field playing as best they can as a team - doing the stuff that every coach wants their team to be doing - and the better team wins on a day by playing better.

I don't believe in rocket science plans, modern game plans versus not modern-day games plans, plan ABCXDEF&G
Complex game plans
Simple game plans
or any other sort of fairy tales.

basically any statistical descriptor of a game will reference the execution of the fundamentals versus opponents and then cite additive results over time.

Motivating players can only achieve so much - coaches arent on teh ground executing - players are.

The whole anti-Voss thing will come back - because it is a symptom of people actually believing that winning or losing speaks to the coach's ability more than the player's execution.

People will reference 'selection integrity' lack of 'alternative game plans' lack of 'tactical smarts' 'stubborness' - all sorts of stuff to point a finger at a coach instead of accepting the fact that the players as a collective ( for whatever reason(s) ) on the day - were not better than their opposition.

That is my view. If you have a problem with the view- that's fine.

I'm curious now. Exactly how much of a successful team is attributable to a coach. If you don't subscribe to game plans and think it's all down to fundamentals, then it's player development and recruiting that is the deciding factor. Considering we haven't exactly hit the draft very hard until last year, most of the development has been done.

From my perspective, we have seen intensity and commitment from this side before but we used to see too many players drawn to a contest and the opposition getting the ball outside our numbers. Right now we see the support come in waves, so if the opposition get the ball out, a second tackler is ready to pounce and so on and so on. The opposition has to break through layers to get past us. That doesn't happen by accident.

Offensively and defensively, our running patterns are such that we have players holding back and timing their entry into the contest. There is strategy and tactics in this and it does take repetitive learning to know when to go and when not to.

As for the notion that selection doesn't matter, I never said that. However, this current game style absolutely fits the next man in mantra that Voss likes to quote. Yes, there is a downturn in talent when players are out, and it won't work as well without some foot speed in the team, but the plan holds up and it takes some understanding from the players.

We see this typically with wingers when they hold their shape out wide, even when temptation exists to come in and make a play. We now have the whole team mentally summing up when it is their time to impact the contest or become the 2nd or 3rd wave.

So I actually give credit to the coaches for what is happening now. I'm certainly not the one saying the coach has little impact and that game plans aren't as important. All I wanted to see was an earlier shake up when the whole team weren't executing what they were taught. I believe we did simplify things a little bit, either the instruction or the actual physical plan, but we went 13 games without producing what the coaches expected us to produce, including that extremely misleading 3W, 1D start which was pretty damn ugly and fortunate. To put all of that down to the availability of Cuningham, Fogarty and fringe players just can't be right.

Look how bad Motlop was travelling and how brilliant he is right now. We had players who could play these roles, they just weren't. Corey Durdin is quick too but looked slow.

I'm pretty certain that Cunners and Fog would have looked ordinary if they were playing in the first half of the season. I think they provided some refreshing spark to the side, but it was far more than that needed to turn it around. The penny dropped ... almost too late, but it dropped. The coaches made a last ditch appeal to the leaders and it worked. It came late. If these injuries start costing us games, it will be too late as we never banked games we could have.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Going on about what exactly? If you havent noticed all Ive done for weeks now is repsond to the offended on this topic and teh offended by my responses keep on asking the same questions over and over and over again - like you today. I find it amusing enough when I ignore the infnatile passive aggressiveness - which comes with the territory of keyboards.

So am I one of the 'offended' JAB? Haven't you been responding the same way over and over whenever anybody says something different to your viewpoint? I've been very patient and diplomatic when discussing this, and you've been a little flippant and dismissive to me at times.

Is this debate really as one-sided as you claim it is?

As for passive aggressiveness ... I think there's been enough of that to go round.

Nobody is talking about Voss at the moment, but the replies seem to suggest that this is still all that's being talked about. When we were in the depths of our woes this season, all manner of former players and footy scribes dissected our game and found fault in multiple areas. It's not as though now that we are out of that period, that these things didnt happen.

Whether game plan or message or motivation or buy in, we didn't have it. The coaches finally found a way to get it across. That's their job. They cut it close.

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

So am I one of the 'offended' JAB? Haven't you been responding the same way over and over whenever anybody says something different to your viewpoint? I've been very patient and diplomatic when discussing this, and you've been a little flippant and dismissive to me at times.

Is this debate really as one-sided as you claim it is?

As for passive aggressiveness ... I think there's been enough of that to go round.

Nobody is talking about Voss at the moment, but the replies seem to suggest that this is still all that's being talked about. When we were in the depths of our woes this season, all manner of former players and footy scribes dissected our game and found fault in multiple areas. It's not as though now that we are out of that period, that these things didnt happen.

Whether game plan or message or motivation or buy in, we didn't have it. The coaches finally found a way to get it across. That's their job. They cut it close.

The impression i get is Voss and the other coaches listened to the issues some of the players had with his coaching and messaging and adapted his coaching methods accordingly as well as our players also making adjustments.

There is a legit school of thought from my viewpoint that both Voss and the players were not in synch with each other earlier in the season, and some criticsm of both parties was warranted, I myself just honestly feel that talk of replacing Voss and or the spreading of unfounded rumours of a split between the playing group (which I think clearly now was B.S) was not particularly productive and did cause tempers in this thread to fray somewhat (well I found it frustrating myself, and I admit I was probaby bit of a pain in the ass during our losing streak)

I am glad my faith in Voss has been proven correct eventually, but I also don't think I should give stick to those who criticised him and his coaching earlier..

I am just happy to enjoy the real positive vibe and confidence within our playing group and culture, something we haven't had in a long time ago, and a galaxy far far away.

I myself will own up to writing both Paddy Dow and Lachie Fogarty off, both of whom I firmly hope will be at the club next year.

 

[JustaBattler]

I'm curious now. Exactly how much of a successful team is attributable to a coach. If you don't subscribe to game plans and think it's all down to fundamentals, then it's player development and recruiting that is the deciding factor. Considering we haven't exactly hit the draft very hard until last year, most of the development has been done.

To respnd to this part of your question regarding coaching, I cant speak with experience in AFL playing or coaching - but I can speak with experience in both codes of Rugby at high levels so from that pespective I say this

A good coach maximises the strengths of his playing personel and minimises its weaknesses - that is as far as game plan goes and that is all the difference one can see - everything else is limited by execution on the day.

As far as player development goes - I have no view on Carlrton - except what I have previously stated and that was that the bst thing the Club has done in 20 years is to take control of its own VFL team and from there be able to synchronise development with needs - I thuink taking time with Binns for example is very good.

As for development being done - not sure I agree with that - player execution of the fundamentals and player development of multiple roles is a key indicator of list strength and depth - I note that Voss favours players who can play multiple roles if required - most notably seen through an increasing use of rotations theough CBB - as these players have come available. So again teh VFL is a palce for players to go and tool up as required.

From my perspective, we have seen intensity and commitment from this side

That is the #1 attribute of a winning team - defensifve pressure all over the ground - something I have been very specific about referencing for years now - and the main reason I think Voss and his team know what they are doing

before but we used to see too many players drawn to a contest and the opposition getting the ball outside our numbers.

that is an example of continual development - the contested ball set ups off the actual contest have improved by a lot and they should have because far too many teams were playing jo the goose outside the contest and getting away with it - you could say that is coaching - others might say just say better execution of the basics and some greatwer continuity in teh set ups

Right now we see the support come in waves, so if the opposition get the ball out, a second tackler is ready to pounce and so on and so on.

yep - much improved pressure at the contest with ball in hand or in defending territory in numbers - again is that the players doing the right thing more often or do you think the coaches had never stated this kind of basic or trained for it?

The opposition has to break through layers to get past us. That doesn't happen by accident.

yep

Offensively and defensively, our running patterns are such that we have players holding back and timing their entry into the contest. There is strategy and tactics in this and it does take repetitive learning to know when to go and when not to.

I have referenced in particular on all of Motlop/Durdin/Fisher/Honey continually running past opposiiton who had ball in hand - one of these blokes is a serial shirker- the rest needed to learn that going in at 80% and waiting before committing 100% of leg speed when the opponent has chosen his line is basic stuff Carlton smaller forwards werent doing- amazingly - Cuningham/Martin and Fogarty time their tackles as they should be and rarely miss a tackle - stuff kids learn at school I might add.

As for the notion that selection doesn't matter, I never said that. However, this current game style absolutely fits the next man in mantra that Voss likes to quote. Yes, there is a downturn in talent when players are out, and it won't work as well without some foot speed in the team, but the plan holds up and it takes some understanding from the players.

Every team finds limits according to available players - too many posters on here consider player availability of lack thereof as a 'an excuse' for poorer performance rather than a 'reason' - my posting on the matter copped a lot from this type of thinking ..

We see this typically with wingers when they hold their shape out wide, even when temptation exists to come in and make a play. We now have the whole team mentally summing up when it is their time to impact the contest or become the 2nd or 3rd wave.

Fixing the HFF has allowed flankers to hold their width because further upfield holds it own width and now we have all of Cottrell Cuningham/Martin/Docherty/Acres holding strong body position and contesrted position - making it easier on the flanks for everyone - the run in the side has improed markedly - that heps a lot

So I actually give credit to the coaches for what is happening now. I'm certainly not the one saying the coach has little impact and that game plans aren't as important.

Coaches are important because they show the team how to win and why they lost - this is not to minimise the importance of coaching - but it is secondary as far as on field performance goes- vey very much secondary - ask any coach.

All I wanted to see was an earlier shake up when the whole team weren't executing what they were taught.

Player availability and fitness was a major factor IMO - look at the team that played last week against Collingwood V who was fit and available in teh first round.

I believe we did simplify things a little bit, either the instruction or the actual physical plan, but we went 13 games without producing what the coaches expected us to produce, including that extremely misleading 3W, 1D start which was pretty damn ugly and fortunate. To put all of that down to the availability of Cuningham, Fogarty and fringe players just can't be right.

I have my view on what triggered better performances ( it started well before the Suns win ) but there was a coming together of better role players and better fitness levels and greater continuity - as well as I am sure some very very harsh conversations - it is no ccident that the list at that stage had 19 still uncotrancted players ...it is no accident that both Cook and Voss have stated publicly on multiple occassiosn thatthe list is not complete - all this is on the record for those that care enough to read and remember..

Look how bad Motlop was travelling and how brilliant he is right now. We had players who could play these roles, they just weren't. Corey Durdin is quick too but looked slow.

I think Motlop has improved his defensive impact - perhaps aided by the fact that he has more capable players around him now to help in Martin and Cuningham and Fogarty - his offensicve impact has improve as well - playing mcuh more front and center now- probably because he can again in bnetter company.

I'm pretty certain that Cunners and Fog would have looked ordinary if they were playing in the first half of the season.

Disagree because they are just more talented than Durdin/Hiney/Fisher and Ed Curnow...etc..

I think they provided some refreshing spark to the side, but it was far more than that needed to turn it around. The penny dropped ... almost too late, but it dropped. The coaches made a last ditch appeal to the leaders and it worked. It came late. If these injuries start costing us games, it will be too late as we never banked games we could have.

Sometimes things look worse than they are and sometimes they look better than they relly are - howevwr irrepsective of anything - the hostorically lowest consitent covnersion ratio was the #1 contributor to losses - of that I have no doubt- - whilst saying that the defensive preesure levels of offensive running levels were well below those of the last couple of months.

 

[JustaBattler]

So am I one of the 'offended' JAB? Haven't you been responding the same way over and over whenever anybody says something different to your viewpoint? I've been very patient and diplomatic when discussing this, and you've been a little flippant and dismissive to me at times.

Ive pretty much only responded to people's quotes for a while now ODN. I cant think of any circumstance wher I have been flippant or dismissive towards you mate.

Is this debate really as one-sided as you claim it is?

Yeah pretty much I think.

As for passive aggressiveness ... I think there's been enough of that to go round.

Oh I think a minority of posters have been pretty consistent - I dont mind.

Nobody is talking about Voss at the moment, but the replies seem to suggest that this is still all that's being talked about.

I agree - it has settled now because performances settled it and by 'it' I mean sack Voss stuff.

When we were in the depths of our woes this season, all manner of former players and footy scribes dissected our game and found fault in multiple areas. It's not as though now that we are out of that period, that these things didnt happen.

Yep - a lot of rubbish was written by teh usual suspects who usually talk rubbish that impresses some types of people

Whether game plan or message or motivation or buy in, we didn't have it. The coaches finally found a way to get it across. That's their job. They cut it close.

Ultimately - it is cheaper to sack a coach than push through serious hard change - Carlton has been expert at that for two decades now. The reality is that it takes many years to build enough depth/continuity and consistency to really be a consistent contender. Voss and Cook have come in knowing that Carlton's reputation as being weak at the contest is the real challenge to get over - but that isnt the only issue being worked on - the whole mantra of next man up - underlines a team approach to playing - rather than a star approach to winning which ahs ben the Carlton way in the past and got us nowhere.

 

[HarryFlashman]

We were diabolically bad - some blamed coach, some blamed players, some blamed both.

What has been obvious to everyone is that the game style was horrible and needed change.
Thank God it has, **** knows if it was coach or players (my guess is both, with a heavier leaning on coach)

We are playing great footy to watch & winning, just let it go & let’s look forward together.

 

[BlueGum]

Ultimately - it is cheaper to sack a coach than push through serious hard change - Carlton has been expert at that for two decades now. The reality is that it takes many years to build enough depth/continuity and consistency to really be a consistent contender. Voss and Cook have come in knowing that Carlton's reputation as being weak at the contest is the real challenge to get over - but that isnt the only issue being worked on - the whole mantra of next man up - underlines a team approach to playing - rather than a star approach to winning which ahs ben the Carlton way in the past and got us nowhere.

This

 

[bourbons]

I myself will own up to writing both Paddy Dow and Lachie Fogarty off, both of whom I firmly hope will be at the club next year.

Yep x2 re: Fogarty here, did eye roll when he was brought back in. But he's been super important in applying front half tackles and pressure generally, would love it if his kicking was better but playing his role well.

Dow though I think will still be gone at years end. Just no defensive side to his game at all - how is he still so slight through the upper arms and shoulders after 5 years on an AFL list??