Coach Michael Voss

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JustaBattler said:
it has become obvious to me that there is a big difference between and on ball brigade comprised of rotations including fit Cripps/Walsh/Cerra/Kennedy and Hewett - versus a midfield which includes rotations of Fogarty/E Hollands an unfit Walsh and absent Kennedy and Cerra and the loss of TDK who is effectively an extra big bodied mid.
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I agree with this but interested on your point about Hollands - I think he has been pretty good as a point of difference in the midfield and can obviously also do damage up forward
 
carlton_99 said:
I agree with this but interested on your point about Hollands - I think he has been pretty good as a point of difference in the midfield and can obviously also do damage up forward
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He is a real 'find' for the Club - really good with some time and space and ball in hand, makes very good decisions and mostly executes well. His best is as a high half forward able to execute good kicks into the forward fifty or find a loose player using angles. I like his willingness to take on the opposition's defensive structures with his kicking.

The only 'problem' with the midfield is we haven't seen the real midfield together - when at its best Carlton had Cripp/Hewett or Kennedy extracting and giving off to Walsh/Cerra - this hasn't been able to be out in place for most of the year.

As an aside- O Holands is a much better player than many on here give him credit for - his only real weakness is lack of size and genuine break-away speed - but he gets to a lot of contests - a lot.
 
JustaBattler said:
The only 'problem' with the midfield is we haven't seen the real midfield together - when at its best Carlton had Cripp/Hewett or Kennedy extracting and giving off to Walsh/Cerra - this hasn't been able to be out in place for most of the year.
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Would be very surprised if we don't see Cerra back in that mix this week. Hopefully we see improvement in that group over the next month
 
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Soapy V said:
Some very fair points and I mostly agree :thumbsu:

My only comment is questions around coaching or selection seems to be more around positioning, some selections and why our clearance, contested game has dropped off so dramatically? I don't think anyone believes that coaches can make us "quicker"
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Our mids need the ball dropped at their feet to compete, Pitto is good at this early game but as he tires he gets jumped over and the ball gets tapped outside where we get murdered for footspeed.

TDK i find is quite poor at ruck craft but he gets his own taps and usually finds a runner BUT now his opponents are learning just to block/bully him at the bounce and he largely becomes ineffective.

I HATE Cerra at Halfback. Mid or bench. He has been abused off HB since his return.

Newman "cheats" a lot at the centre bounce expecting us to win the clearance and often the ball pops over his head to where he shoukd have been. I think he needs to adjust his attack/defend slider.

Our smalls up forward are way to static. Always arriving late and from the sides instead of front and centre. They seem to expect our mids to be at Charlie/Harrys feet.
 
Same stuff again, tactically we are inflexible.

Not wanting to sack him but we really need a rethink in the off season of make up of our list, how we want to play, and how we train/prepare.

Missing finals this year will force them to have a good hard look at themselves, but all the chickens have come home to roost of our issues when we had our bad run of form last year.

Those flaws in the side never went away, it’s just this group has max half a season of good footy in them a season, last year is the best we can hope for from this group.
 

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Blue1980 said:
Same stuff again, tactically we are inflexible.

Not wanting to sack him but we really need a rethink in the off season of make up of our list, how we want to play, and how we train/prepare.

Missing finals this year will force them to have a good hard look at themselves, but all the chickens have come home to roost of our issues when we had our bad run of form last year.

Those flaws in the side never went away, it’s just this group has max half a season of good footy in them a season, last year is the best we can hope for from this group.
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We have an inflexible list. Could name on one hand players capable of playing multiple positions. Pace is so limited across the board
 
kreuze_missile said:
Worst coaching group in the business.

And it’s not even close.

They’ve all got to go.

Time for Cook to earn his money.
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Not trying to start a fight, but what specifically did you think Voss do wrong tonight?

If you think the sub call was bad, I disagree as I think he knows we need fresh players around the contest so I think the idea was right. Whether or not the sub should be MK, rather than Cerra, is a coin toss, albeit at least they’ll be no debate about this for the next 3 weeks.

IMO before blaming Voss or any of the assistant coaches I’d blame (in this order):
1) Austen - he has re-signed injury prone players who are never available meaning we have no depth and specifically has left us short of height down back which routinely gets exploited
2) Russell - forget about the injury prone blokes, he has now mismanaged multiple players who were previously not injury prone (eg Walsh and Cerra)
3) players - aside from Cripps, Weiters and Saad they lack killer instinct (see Richmond round 1 game and Crows loss)

Austen needs to go. Russell needs to go. Several players will go. I don’t think Voss should go.
 
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Aaron Hamill has to have serious questions asked if him end of season. Defensive stoppages are beyond hilarious
 
I've been a staunch defender of Voss but hear him say he's proud of our effort in the last quarter really makes me lose a little respect for him there.

That's not the hardnut competitor I remember him being as a player, how you could accept a performance like that?

Get into em Voss, we've been over morale victories for four years now.
 
I want us to work our way out of this hole without sacking the coach, but any criticism Vossy is getting is deserved and warranted imo.

We've thrown a glorious opportunity to finish in the top four away over the past month and a bit.

The playing list still has issues that need to be rectified and some changes probably need to be made to the makeup of the assistant coaches as well.

Of course it's also all between the ears, i think some of our players struggle a bit coping with high expectations sadly.
 
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2022 was a learning year for Voss with this list. We capitulated late to miss finals with some heartbreaking loses but overall it was a big step up from where we had been.

2023 we had a diabolical first half of the year where we had that losing skid (slow stodgy ball movement and overly defensive) and then we somewhat abandoned the game plan, freed up our play and focused on our strengths of contested ball and attacking play (particularly from stoppage where we brutalised teams). We were woeful from scoring off turnover but yet we still almost made the grand final. Only faded as we had to come from outside the top 4 and had used all our tickets mentally and physically going on such a big winning run to make finals. This season highlighted the key strengths of this list. We all saw it.

2024 we have made leaps and bounds in our ability to score from turnover but our stoppage work has dropped off. We have started to lose our attacking flare after the GWS game. Why? I think Voss and the coaching staff looked too much into key stats and told the group to tighten up and tinkered. Possibly some selection issues and rushing back players may have played a part. We’ve become so worried about rectifying our defensive profile that we’ve lost our identity and what we’re good at. When we unleashed the shackles in the 4th tonight we looked a different team. We played with more attacking flare and a desire to score and punish. The pressure gauge and desire to hunt lifted (200+ in the 4th - fitness isn’t an issue).

No coach is perfect I understand that. It’s a balance between man managing and tactics. It’s a balance between rectifying deficiencies while playing to strengths. It’s a balance of managing injuries and when to select players. But I think we’ve all learnt what the strengths of this team are and that we will never be as a super impressive defensive team. We need to play to our strengths. It doesn’t matter how much we concede if we win. This is where I feel Voss has not learnt yet. Double down on the big bodies in the midfield. Cripps, Hewett, Kennedy and bash and crash. Get the runners to the wings (i.e. Walsh). We need that balance between what we were last year (huge, brutal contested team) and this year (scoring off turnover).

At the moment we’ve lost our identity and don’t play to the strengths of this list. We chase shadows and metrics and try to be something we are not and it’s like playing whack-a-mole. We were second on the ladder with a leaky defence. Did the leaky defence matter.. no because we were winning still. We don’t need to try to change and be a carbon copy of other premiership teams blueprints. Our strengths were outweighing these so called deficiencies. Winning is winning no matter how you achieve it.

Figure it out Vossy, you’ve had 3 years now to work out our best lineup and game style. Feels like he does not know whether we’re better with 2 rucks or 1. Feels like he doesn’t know what our best midfield mix is still. The messaging should not be ‘I was proud of the fight and comeback’ anymore. That’s a poor public message. Stop giving the playing list a pat on the back and an out. Release the shackles and we may have a chance at rectifying this season because it’s that even still and our best footy is the best in the competition. We have key pieces other teams and coaches would die for that give us a huge advantage. When we play to our strengths we look unstoppable. It’s frustrating because we are good enough and we are wasting it chasing the metrics of premiership teams past rather than forging our own DNA and winning our way.
 
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Stormzy said:
I've been a staunch defender of Voss but hear him say he's proud of our effort in the last quarter really makes me lose a little respect for him there.

That's not the hardnut competitor I remember him being as a player, how you could accept a performance like that?

Get into em Voss, we've been over morale victories for four years now.
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It's so weird... against the Cats he came out and said it was unacceptable... no he's proud? Turn it up...
 
Stormzy said:
I've been a staunch defender of Voss but hear him say he's proud of our effort in the last quarter really makes me lose a little respect for him there.

That's not the hardnut competitor I remember him being as a player, how you could accept a performance like that?

Get into em Voss, we've been over morale victories for four years now.
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I like to think what he is saying publically isn't what he is saying privately.
 

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Coach Michael Voss

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