Coach Michael Voss

[goreds]

didnt want to go through interview process?

personally wouldn't want him anyway. im happy we stayed clear of him.

all we need to do is bring in 1-2 senior assistants to help voss.

Not sure that ‘interview process’ passes the pub test. Sayers wanted him as he knew our list/playing group needed a ‘prick’ (as someone else described Ross), to get control of them, put the horse before the cart. As I said earlier, the moral police got hold of the situation and Ross was torpedoed, much to Sayers disgust…

I was ok with Voss getting the job but I think he is holding back as he has a fear of getting the chop.

No more ‘backing the playing group in’ conversations. Do we really think Ross, Alastair or John would? They would tear strips off them and paint off the walls. They would make a statement and not use terms like ‘managed’ rather terms like ‘standards’…

Having said that, we don’t have the depth that’s required to make a difference.

We need a 3rd forward that can kick goals, small or medium. Kennedy or Hewett but not both.

Cripps needs to line a few of his own up as well.

 

[Pixelshooter]

I absolutely love Vossy as a bloke and don't for a moment question his footy pedigree. But, as I said when we hired him, and I don't mean this in a personal vindictive way, I don't think he's the sharpest tool in the shed when it comes to tactics and being ahead of the curve with general footy stuff.

If we were going to go down the Voss path, we HAD to hire some assistants that are super smart and/or probably at least one former senior coach. Like Melbourne have done with Chocco and Yze with Richardson as GM of footy ops...the Pies have done with Bolton and Leppitsch...the Saints have done with Enright, Harvey, Hayes and Goddard We just seem light on. I don't think Hamill is on the bleeding edge of thinking either...and Lloyd - also doesn't inspire much confidence.

We had a great opportunity when we hired Vossy, but we clearly missed the boat and not sure how or if hings can be turned around to any great degree. Hope I'm wrong.

 

[Faz 2000]

I absolutely love Vossy as a bloke and don't for a moment question his footy pedigree. But, as I said when we hired him, and I don't mean this in a personal vindictive way, I don't think he's the sharpest tool in the shed when it comes to tactics and being ahead of the curve with general footy stuff.

If we were going to go down the Voss path, we HAD to hire some assistants that are super smart and/or probably at least one former senior coach. Like Melbourne have done with Chocco and Yze with Richardson as GM of footy ops...the Pies have done with Bolton and Leppitsch...the Saints have done with Enright, Harvey, Hayes and Goddard We just seem light on. I don't think Hamill is on the bleeding edge of thinking either...and Lloyd - also doesn't inspire much confidence.

We had a great opportunity when we hired Vossy, but we clearly missed the boat and not sure how or if hings can be turned around to any great degree. Hope I'm wrong.

All of this is absolutely true. I am unclear why there's nobody at the club who sees this - or why they didn't see it from day one with Voss (because we could all see it).

The Blues of right now are a disorganised shambles playing out of date football. The "plan" - such as it is - seems to be totally shaped and influenced by our much-hyped star assets instead of a system. This is really the tail wagging the dog. It is damning of a coaching staff that Carlton CLEARLY are less than the sum of the parts. It's almost criminal how we send the ball forward with the plan apparently that some $1M superstar will take a contested mark. It's Hail Mary style play.

If we had a clear, effective, modern system it would quickly become apparent that some players on our list have no place in it. It would also aid greatly in our recruitment because instead of identifying "the big name" that might be gettable, we'd go find pieces that fit and could thrive in the system. But Carlton's DNA for forever ago is about the individual stars ("we have the best players at Carlton") and it just doesn't work any more.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

I absolutely love Vossy as a bloke and don't for a moment question his footy pedigree. But, as I said when we hired him, and I don't mean this in a personal vindictive way, I don't think he's the sharpest tool in the shed when it comes to tactics and being ahead of the curve with general footy stuff.

If we were going to go down the Voss path, we HAD to hire some assistants that are super smart and/or probably at least one former senior coach. Like Melbourne have done with Chocco and Yze with Richardson as GM of footy ops...the Pies have done with Bolton and Leppitsch...the Saints have done with Enright, Harvey, Hayes and Goddard We just seem light on. I don't think Hamill is on the bleeding edge of thinking either...and Lloyd - also doesn't inspire much confidence.

We had a great opportunity when we hired Vossy, but we clearly missed the boat and not sure how or if hings can be turned around to any great degree. Hope I'm wrong.

It was the usual over the top reaction. Playing group was frustrated with coaching. Voss was seen as a great people person that could build relationships.

All well and good. But at the end of the day, if the right tactics and strategies aren't there, not going to get near it.

By the time we went through our "process" the most highly touted assistant coaches were all taken.

 

[Jimmyonesix]

Other than Hansen we didn't bring much in . Power was already on the pay roll -- I think Hamil was employed before we got a coach as a feel good story -- Voss bought grieves as his personal assistant ..
Voss needs a dynamic group behind him and this was stated when he was hired ( bit of a red flag )..
Think for the playing groups well being last thing we should do is sack another coach ..
sort out the support staff and list balance

 

[jj1978]

Problem we have is what credentialed recent senior coaches, well credentialed assistants (in the current game), or recent retired nous players do we have able to bring in to help? Joel Selwood? Luke Hodge?

Just get the feeling we're a poisoned chalice. How the heck do coaches and players want to flock to * with what they did as a club, DoDo hanging around the water cooler... and all we did was pay a couple players cash (as opposed to partnering them in a business, or a cushy job, or a real estate deal), and we got rid of the president for doing so.

 

[SurreyBlue]

As a start, Voss needs to go back upstairs.
He doesn’t have anyone up there to overview and control the game.



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[Kaladin Stormblessed]

Problem we have is what credentialed recent senior coaches, well credentialed assistants (in the current game), or recent retired nous players do we have able to bring in to help? Joel Selwood? Luke Hodge?

Just get the feeling we're a poisoned chalice. How the heck do coaches and players want to flock to * with what they did as a club, DoDo hanging around the water cooler... and all we did was pay a couple players cash (as opposed to partnering them in a business, or a cushy job, or a real estate deal), and we got rid of the president for doing so.

Stewy Dew if his contract is not renewed at GCS would be a good get.

Rutten was available last year as well. Don Pyke, heck even Ken Hinkley (yes getting desperate now)..

 

[jj1978]

Stewy Dew if his contract is not renewed at GCS would be a good get.

Rutten was available last year as well. Don Pyke, heck even Ken Hinkley (yes getting desperate now)..

If you wanna get desperate maybe we should throw in Hird.

 

[Markyd]

Poignant comment in news about Voss “All the gear no idea”

 

[Blue__Balls]

Full disclosure - I have not watched the St Kilda game. Family birthday got in the way, sounds like it was maybe a blessing in disguise.

Now, with that in mind, I feel maybe I've got the benefit of a bit less rage and frustration than most here who are still hurting after what was, apparently, a monumentally shithouse display of football.

I'm not gonna speak on Voss specifically here, because to an extent I think it's irrelevant.

We cannot keep going down this path of chasing a quick sugar hit and sure-thing senior coach who will take us to the dynasty we think this list should be delivering. There are, at least, two reasons why:

1. We're not giving these coaches the opportunity to learn and develop. "How long should it take? Just hurry up and get better!" Well, sack the coach then, bring in another one. OK, and what happens when that coach changes the plan again, and our dopey players struggle to execute for another year? "Sack them, find another! One day we'll strike gold and find a coach who can bring us a flag inside 6 months!" Bullshit. Voss isn't a Clarko, fine. Maybe he's a Hardwick? Maybe if we let him build and tinker and develop and grow then down the line we'll have a coach who brings us 3 flags inside 4 years. Maybe not...but we're not gonna win a flag if we keep this game of musical chairs going. Patience is needed. And not the "we fans have been patient for 20 years!" crap either, we need to commit to a coach and then show them some patience, so that they can connect with the list, shape the list, and shape the plan around it.

2. Every time we do it, we narrow the pool. How many coaches, even proven ones, want to risk their reputation, their career, on a club who will chuck them on the scrapheap inside 2 years if they don't deliver immediate results? If we keep doing this, we're going to become a club that nobody wants to coach.


This year we're irate because the side is playing slow, conservative football, and want to see the attacking flair of 2022. But last year we were crying out for the team to learn to play some defensive/tempo football to balance things out. You know what, this list has not played defensive football for about 5 years, it's no wonder they're shit at it. There is a very real chance that it might take all season to start getting it right. And perhaps another preseason. But we need to do it, we can't win a flag without learning how to slow the game down and control the play. Maybe other sides could pick it up in one off-season. Clearly we can't, and that's probably down to having only 2 blokes aged 30 and up (one being Ed Curnow who should almost certainly be playing ressies), and that we've gone through 5 coaches so far in the last 10 years, and have therefore had absolutely no continuity for the 25-28yos who should be driving this group.

I'm going to choose to view the Carlton under Voss relationship as a metaphorical draftee.

2022 was the debut season. It was exciting, it was energetic, it delivered some results but ultimately ran out of puff a bit early.
2023 is the second year blues. Opposition sides have put in a bit of work to identify weaknesses, and this season is about learning to play the boring team role.
2024, I'm hoping, is the breakout year. Defensive stuff is bedded down, adherence to team structures is better, and there's a little more maturity and composure on display.

Maybe some see that as a wasted 2023 season, but if it means 2024 has us willing and able to flick the switch in-game and actually execute, I'm OK with it.

Now, I'm taking that on faith, it's not a given. We might stall again next year. If we do, fine. Keep tinkering, keep building. It might take 5 years to make a meaningful impact in finals (I hope it's sooner), but that's an infinitely better outcome than continuing on this coaching merry-go-round that will, without doubt, see us rooted to the bottom half of the ladder in perpetuity.

 

[lilJeffyG]

Full disclosure - I have not watched the St Kilda game. Family birthday got in the way, sounds like it was maybe a blessing in disguise.

Now, with that in mind, I feel maybe I've got the benefit of a bit less rage and frustration than most here who are still hurting after what was, apparently, a monumentally shithouse display of football.

I'm not gonna speak on Voss specifically here, because to an extent I think it's irrelevant.

We cannot keep going down this path of chasing a quick sugar hit and sure-thing senior coach who will take us to the dynasty we think this list should be delivering. There are, at least, two reasons why:

1. We're not giving these coaches the opportunity to learn and develop. "How long should it take? Just hurry up and get better!" Well, sack the coach then, bring in another one. OK, and what happens when that coach changes the plan again, and our dopey players struggle to execute for another year? "Sack them, find another! One day we'll strike gold and find a coach who can bring us a flag inside 6 months!" Bullshit. Voss isn't a Clarko, fine. Maybe he's a Hardwick? Maybe if we let him build and tinker and develop and grow then down the line we'll have a coach who brings us 3 flags inside 4 years. Maybe not...but we're not gonna win a flag if we keep this game of musical chairs going. Patience is needed. And not the "we fans have been patient for 20 years!" crap either, we need to commit to a coach and then show them some patience, so that they can connect with the list, shape the list, and shape the plan around it.

2. Every time we do it, we narrow the pool. How many coaches, even proven ones, want to risk their reputation, their career, on a club who will chuck them on the scrapheap inside 2 years if they don't deliver immediate results? If we keep doing this, we're going to become a club that nobody wants to coach.


This year we're irate because the side is playing slow, conservative football, and want to see the attacking flair of 2022. But last year we were crying out for the team to learn to play some defensive/tempo football to balance things out. You know what, this list has not played defensive football for about 5 years, it's no wonder they're s**t at it. There is a very real chance that it might take all season to start getting it right. And perhaps another preseason. But we need to do it, we can't win a flag without learning how to slow the game down and control the play. Maybe other sides could pick it up in one off-season. Clearly we can't, and that's probably down to having only 2 blokes aged 30 and up (one being Ed Curnow who should almost certainly be playing ressies), and that we've gone through 5 coaches so far in the last 10 years, and have therefore had absolutely no continuity for the 25-28yos who should be driving this group.

I'm going to choose to view the Carlton under Voss relationship as a metaphorical draftee.

2022 was the debut season. It was exciting, it was energetic, it delivered some results but ultimately ran out of puff a bit early.
2023 is the second year blues. Opposition sides have put in a bit of work to identify weaknesses, and this season is about learning to play the boring team role.
2024, I'm hoping, is the breakout year. Defensive stuff is bedded down, adherence to team structures is better, and there's a little more maturity and composure on display.

Maybe some see that as a wasted 2023 season, but if it means 2024 has us willing and able to flick the switch in-game and actually execute, I'm OK with it.

Now, I'm taking that on faith, it's not a given. We might stall again next year. If we do, fine. Keep tinkering, keep building. It might take 5 years to make a meaningful impact in finals (I hope it's sooner), but that's an infinitely better outcome than continuing on this coaching merry-go-round that will, without doubt, see us rooted to the bottom half of the ladder in perpetuity.

I don't disagree with you in parts,.but it's always next year. It's been next year for the last 3-4 years. We are always, "oh when Harry hits his prime", when charlie and harry can get some synergy going", When Weiters mattress, etc,etc.

When we have a brain dead list, all this goes out the window.

 

[AndyLucimitis]

All of this is absolutely true. I am unclear why there's nobody at the club who sees this - or why they didn't see it from day one with Voss (because we could all see it).

The Blues of right now are a disorganised shambles playing out of date football. The "plan" - such as it is - seems to be totally shaped and influenced by our much-hyped star assets instead of a system. This is really the tail wagging the dog. It is damning of a coaching staff that Carlton CLEARLY are less than the sum of the parts. It's almost criminal how we send the ball forward with the plan apparently that some $1M superstar will take a contested mark. It's Hail Mary style play.

If we had a clear, effective, modern system it would quickly become apparent that some players on our list have no place in it. It would also aid greatly in our recruitment because instead of identifying "the big name" that might be gettable, we'd go find pieces that fit and could thrive in the system. But Carlton's DNA for forever ago is about the individual stars ("we have the best players at Carlton") and it just doesn't work any more.

Yeh - but what is an 'effective modern system' - it seems to change weekly.

Everyone is lauding Ross Lyon at the moment and fair enough - but his effective 'modern' system of defense at least seems to be to flood the backline - which has been around since Rocket Eade in 1996.

I'm frustrated with our game plan as well but you do have to tailor your plan to the cattle you have (eg. our much hyped stars).

To me the glaring weakness we have (apart from missing goals) is the lack of a 3rd and perhaps 4th leading forward. JSOS tries hard but just isn't good enough. Sides like St. Kilda know that if they slow our play through the middle then our only option is to bomb long to a) H or b) Charlie which is easy to defend.

If we had options C and D then we could break this up and spread the defense. It's what McGovern was recruited for but he such an asset as half-back.

 

[bourbons]

Lyon is a prick who walked out on his players at St Kilda, then alienated everyone at Freo and left under a cloud of sexual harassment allegations. He wasn't the answer and lets not let our own poor performance today cloud that.

Voss is a mediocre coach (by AFL standards - I'm sure he is amazing in any other context) and if we want to understand that, we need to be a bit more introspective about what really happened in 2021. In particular, the awful way we treated Teague (whose appointment was a mess in the first place)... and before that Bolton and Ratten, and the messy Lyon situation... we were a shambles and frankly no one wanted to coach the club.

Voss came to us as a failed former coach, who had done a good apprenticeship and felt ready for another crack, but probably wasn't likely to get it anywhere else. His skills seemed a good fit too - he's a former midfield star, and arguably has done a good job of getting our stars to just relax and play good footy, with Cripps/Curnow/Saad all having career years last year, Docherty getting back to his best, etc.

But that has a shelf life and all the downsides to his coaching are acculumulating, as they did at Brisbane in his second and third years. I don't know the answer... this season seems to be slipping away, and with it the prime of Cripps/Docherty/Saad (will they ever play a final at the club?). Maybe it is bringing in a senior mentor - Leigh Matthews has a connection to Vossy, or someone else?

I still think if he just went back to the start of last year, backed our midfielders and big forwards in to win us games, basically otherwise just rolled the ball out and said 'go play', as we did in the first few rounds last year, we'd be better off. WE would probably score a lot more heavily, see a lot more from the young guys, and lose a few games more heavily too. But it would be a lot more fun than whatever this hot mess is right now (for all the talk of Ross Lyon's negative coaching style, we've kicked 10 goals or less in 8 of our last 14 games, with TWO Coleman medallists in the forward 50. That's almost impressively inept)

Tend to agree, really shaping up as yet another 'boring' season - mostly beat who we're supposed to beat (the obligatory bed shitting or 2 aside), lose to who we're supposed to lose to and never at any stage look like knocking off a top team or even give any ordinary team a shellacking. They'll limp over the line vs West Coast next week by about 13 points, nothing surer

 

[Blue__Balls]

I don't disagree with you in parts,.but it's always next year. It's been next year for the last 3-4 years. We are always, "oh when Harry hits his prime", when charlie and harry can get some synergy going", When Weiters mattress, etc,etc.

When we have a brain dead list, all this goes out the window.

If we have a brain dead list then it's even more appropriate.

Let's talk the current coach. Not his philosophy or his skillset or his results. His opportunity.

He's had 27 AFL games with the list.
He's had one off-season to tweak the list.
He's had somewhere in the vicinity of 8-10 blokes out injured, just about every week.
And we were within half a percentage point of playing finals.

He might not be great coach. He might become one. But we're not going to find out if we keep cycling coaches every couple of years chasing an immediate result. And if we do that, we're never going to get what we want, because any competent coach who has multiple suitors is going to steer well clear of us.

Grind out this season, challenge the group to sustain their intensity and buy a finals berth through effort and guts. While that's happening, move a few magnets on occasion, learn more about the list, and give the LM team some names that can be jettisoned. We can all see what we need - speed, disposal, scoreboard impact, durability, so target that in the off-season and then have another crack next year.

Importantly though - maintain stability at the top. Because if we don't have stability in the coaching role, how can we ever have consistency from the players.

 

[Pixelshooter]

Stewy Dew if his contract is not renewed at GCS would be a good get.

Rutten was available last year as well. Don Pyke, heck even Ken Hinkley (yes getting desperate now)..

Dew...absolutely not. He's in the same mould as Vossy. Great guy, but not particularly bright or leading edge. Same for Rutten.

Pyke...he seems pretty cluey...but not sure he want a senior coaching gig? He'd be great as a senior assistant.

Hinkley...not 100% sure, but seems like a smart guy who is just nearing the end of his shelf life with that particular club.

Again, Voss would probably be fine as long as he had more really smart, switched on and experienced guys around him.

 

[lilJeffyG]

If we have a brain dead list then it's even more appropriate.

Let's talk the current coach. Not his philosophy or his skillset or his results. His opportunity.

He's had 27 AFL games with the list.
He's had one off-season to tweak the list.
He's had somewhere in the vicinity of 8-10 blokes out injured, just about every week.
And we were within half a percentage point of playing finals.

He might not be great coach. He might become one. But we're not going to find out if we keep cycling coaches every couple of years chasing an immediate result. And if we do that, we're never going to get what we want, because any competent coach who has multiple suitors is going to steer well clear of us.

Grind out this season, challenge the group to sustain their intensity and buy a finals berth through effort and guts. While that's happening, move a few magnets on occasion, learn more about the list, and give the LM team some names that can be jettisoned. We can all see what we need - speed, disposal, scoreboard impact, durability, so target that in the off-season and then have another crack next year.

Importantly though - maintain stability at the top. Because if we don't have stability in the coaching role, how can we ever have consistency from the players.

I agree it's not the coach. It's been going on for to long and through too many coaches for it to be the coach.

Our players are simpletons, who I think can't grass the game plan concept

 

[Kaladin Stormblessed]

Well I was asking for all of those as assistant coaches or head of performance not as senior coaches replacing Vossy.

I think Dew in that role would be an asset. As would Pyke and I think Hinkley (in the Alan Richardson mould)

 

[gbatman]

A new coach needs time to learn as does anyone else in a new position in any field. Some new coaches do well because the playing group is high quality, mature and pretty much self coaching, such as when Scott went to Geelong and won his first flag. Some coaches come to a club with years of experience and success and just continue on.

Voss has changed a lot for the better. He has fixed up a whole heap of defensive issues. He's fixed up a lot of ball movement issues but has not been able to fix all.

He's also in charge of a list he has had very little say over and has come from the bottom of the ladder.

Coaching wise the big issue is that we lack the players. We lack 4 quarter leg speed. We are slow up forward, slow in the middle and slow in defence. When we have our full group together we aren't too bad. Docherty, Williams, Saad provide plenty of run. Cerra and Walsh are lone hands who give us run in the middle of the ground and it's not enough. Up forward we have McKay, Curnow and Silvagni who lack ground level pace. Motlop who is not fit enough to sustain pace. Durdin who puts in big efforts but is alone there and Owies who we are actually missing a bit up forward.

The coach does shoot himself in the foot though, there is no doubting that. He should be looking for anyone who is quick and particularly quick players who can kick well. Dow without a shadow of a doubt should have played this week. Cincotta should have made his debut last week. Kemp should have played every time Plowman has played. Voss' team selecting has created self inflicted pain, it's been garbage. His structure around the midfield has also been rubbish although a lot of the time we haven't had the options.

Speed is king in the AFL, always has been but is more than ever. We have a forward line that worried opposition and encourages flooding back. You have to have fast ball movement which comes from well skilled players who are fleet of foot.

Voss has learnt a lot, has improved a lot with us but he needs to sort out the team structure, get it quicker all over the field.

The other area we have really missed with is appointing a really good quality senior assistant. Voss is green. Yes he has coached senior footy, he's been an assistant at Port for a good while, but until you have coached a senior side and had success with that, you are pretty much at that raw beginners level. Our assistants do not excite me, hardly any come from a successful background.

We had a cracking coaching group in 2000, we have had a budget group ever since. Never since haver we had a group of coaches who come from successful backgrounds.

 

[bourbons]

He's had somewhere in the vicinity of 8-10 blokes out injured, just about every week.

The injury stuff is a furphy imo. Take yesterday - we had 2 best 22 unavailable, Doc and Saad. Maybe 3 with Cottrell, maybe. Marchbank, Williams and Martin are pipe dreams, they can't be considered long term best 22 with the track record they have. Boyd, Cunningham etc - just no.

We're still unable to cover injuries to even 1 or 2 of our best players. Other teams can and do. Outside of our half dozen or so bonafide stars the list has no depth whatsoever, and there's no one banging the door down in the 2s either (well Dow kinda is but we've seen that before, his papers have clearly been stamped - with some justification imo).

 

[smashbox gill]

Don Pyke would be absolutely perfect to bring in as an assistant.

Luke Power

Luke Power

Age

44

Ht

180cm

Wt

79kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

23.0

5star

K

13.4

5star

HB

9.6

5star

M

3.9

4star

T

3.9

5star

CL

1.9

4star

No current season stats available

D

16.6

4star

K

10.2

4star

HB

6.4

4star

M

1.4

2star

T

2.0

4star

needs to come back into the fold, perhaps as midfield coach.

Hansen was highly rated but haven’t really seen any reward from his position since he started. Our forward line has been highly disfunctional for the 18 months now.

See ya later to Russell hopefully end of the year and that will free up some space on the soft cap.

Hamill, Clarke and Greeves hopefully to and bring in some quality.

What even does Greeves do?

 

[lilJeffyG]

A new coach needs time to learn as does anyone else in a new position in any field. Some new coaches do well because the playing group is high quality, mature and pretty much self coaching, such as when Scott went to Geelong and won his first flag. Some coaches come to a club with years of experience and success and just continue on.

Voss has changed a lot for the better. He has fixed up a whole heap of defensive issues. He's fixed up a lot of ball movement issues but has not been able to fix all.

He's also in charge of a list he has had very little say over and has come from the bottom of the ladder.

Coaching wise the big issue is that we lack the players. We lack 4 quarter leg speed. We are slow up forward, slow in the middle and slow in defence. When we have our full group together we aren't too bad. Docherty, Williams, Saad provide plenty of run. Cerra and Walsh are lone hands who give us run in the middle of the ground and it's not enough. Up forward we have McKay, Curnow and Silvagni who lack ground level pace. Motlop who is not fit enough to sustain pace. Durdin who puts in big efforts but is alone there and Owies who we are actually missing a bit up forward.

The coach does shoot himself in the foot though, there is no doubting that. He should be looking for anyone who is quick and particularly quick players who can kick well. Dow without a shadow of a doubt should have played this week. Cincotta should have made his debut last week. Kemp should have played every time Plowman has played. Voss' team selecting has created self inflicted pain, it's been garbage. His structure around the midfield has also been rubbish although a lot of the time we haven't had the options.

Speed is king in the AFL, always has been but is more than ever. We have a forward line that worried opposition and encourages flooding back. You have to have fast ball movement which comes from well skilled players who are fleet of foot.

Voss has learnt a lot, has improved a lot with us but he needs to sort out the team structure, get it quicker all over the field.

The other area we have really missed with is appointing a really good quality senior assistant. Voss is green. Yes he has coached senior footy, he's been an assistant at Port for a good while, but until you have coached a senior side and had success with that, you are pretty much at that raw beginners level. Our assistants do not excite me, hardly any come from a successful background.

We had a cracking coaching group in 2000, we have had a budget group ever since. Never since haver we had a group of coaches who come from successful backgrounds.

So St.Kilda had sinclair and hill who have pace, if you add butler and higgins you can cancel them out with Motlop and Durdin in our forward line. So is there fitness that much better than ours.

And it sh*ts me to tears that we want to play the territory game, St.Kilda scored 50 points from our forward half through transition. So we win the ball, get it forward and then it usually goes back over our head without it being touched by us for a goal.

 

[Faz 2000]

Yeh - but what is an 'effective modern system' - it seems to change weekly.

Everyone is lauding Ross Lyon at the moment and fair enough - but his effective 'modern' system of defense at least seems to be to flood the backline - which has been around since Rocket Eade in 1996.

I'm frustrated with our game plan as well but you do have to tailor your plan to the cattle you have (eg. our much hyped stars).

To me the glaring weakness we have (apart from missing goals) is the lack of a 3rd and perhaps 4th leading forward. JSOS tries hard but just isn't good enough. Sides like St. Kilda know that if they slow our play through the middle then our only option is to bomb long to a) H or b) Charlie which is easy to defend.

If we had options C and D then we could break this up and spread the defense. It's what McGovern was recruited for but he such an asset as half-back.

For sure, I don't think there's one magic answer. I certainly don't think Ross Lyon has suddenly solved football or the Saints will be this good all year. But at least there's an imprint, a recognisable pattern and system that seems suited to their list capabilities and effective.

What I can see is our team currently is NOT playing a dynamic, hard-to-defeat gamestyle. Everyone... all of us, all opponents, all AFL fans... can see what Carlton is doing, what we're good at, what we're bad at, and how to stop us. This is the frustrating bit - how easy we are to play against. We give EVERYONE a chance, every time.

I agree that one has to use a gameplan to take advantage of what assets a team has, which is why it's so baffling that we seem to have a clogged, busy forward line all the time with two fantastic marking forwards who would absolutely thrive on space. We also have stagnant ball-movement that gives opponents ample time to run back defensively. We score very VERY few "over the top", "out the back" goals.

Recognising that all the best laid plans in the world don't survive contact with the enemy either, we need to develop an approach that is robust enough to stand up with scrutiny and pressure and so on. What we've produce so far is laughably fallible. There's a narrow gap where it works, when our centre square dominates clearances and Harry catches everything.... but if those two things don't happen, that's it, sorry, we got nothing.

I don't know how to fix it. I'm not a football tactician. All I know is we're shithouse. Even when we win it's not clinical, systematic or comprehensive. And we have a list laden with brilliant individuals, whose careers will come and go whilst we're still a huge disappointing rabble.

 

[gbatman]

So St.Kilda had sinclair and hill who have pace, if you add butler and higgins you can cancel them out with Motlop and Durdin in our forward line. So is there fitness that much better than ours.

And it sh*ts me to tears that we want to play the territory game, St.Kilda scored 50 points from our forward half through transition. So we win the ball, get it forward and then it usually goes back over our head without it being touched by us for a goal.

They are quicker than us. Motlop has no tank. Durdin has improved it from last season.

Put in huge efforts to flood and get numbers back against us as do most sides. We can't help that, but we can combat that. Go forward fast, go long and a little direct and hope we have the pace, numbers and quality when it comes to ground. We played this style a bit last year, it worked well at times, other times it opened us up a lot and we ran out of gas a lot trying to defend the turnover.

 

[goreds]

I agree it's not the coach. It's been going on for to long and through too many coaches for it to be the coach.

Our players are simpletons, who I think can't grass the game plan concept

If you look up that word, you will probably find a picture of ‘insert AFL player here’ posted!

Don’t think it’s about grasping the game plan, it’s about discipline and being held accountable for straying from that…

I really expect more from Cripps when it comes to this. Enough putting your arms around players and more glaring and giving them a spray when needed…