Coach Michael Voss

[jpfalvo]

Williams was shunted from the Tigers before they won 3 flags

Simpson never had a senior mentor winning a flag, neither did Beveridge, neither did Brad Scott, Longmire

While it could help, its not a main component to the ultimate success

Clearly pointing out it was a successful ingredient for 2 coaches. Specifically and talked about at the time.

If you read my post, I had different comments for Simpson and Brad Scott for their success.

Beveridge and Longmire you threw in their to muddy the waters on a post I added further context to.

But while your at it.

Beveridge won premierships and had a special level of success and reputation as a coach. Well publicised

Longmire had a long long apprenticeship under Paul Roos. Who has been seen as a guru of coaching and mentorship. I mean Melbourne got him in to set up and rebuild its culture as coach, then a succession plan for handing over to Goodwin.

I have first hand knowledge of what Roos did to sort out Melbourne. Fantastic leader and mentor. My organization used Roos only recently, again just fantastic

Voss, in my opinion, so we are clear could do with more help and greater experience around him than what he has. But thats only my opinion. Theres no downside to seeking help to improve.

CEOs of Fortune500 companies have mentors. We want to see the coach be successful dont we?





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[Blue_Fusion]

St Kilda didn't have as much elite talent on the park last week...

Neither did the Crows the week before.. or at the very least, not to the tune of 9 goals.

Not every club sets finals as expectation. Come on get real here, there are many clubs who know they are in a rebuild phase and would be stupid to set that expectation on their playing group.

No one was setting finals expectations in Bolton's first couple of years...

Furthermore, there are clubs that are expecting top 4, not just finals. Clubs that are expecting to win a flag based on their previous couple of seasons...

Setting finals as an expectation should be the bare minimum this group can achieve this year. No more excuses.

But 8 years in to the rebuild, if they can't meet that expectation then it's more than fair for supporters to call them out on it.

 

[Arr0w]

Clearly pointing out it was a successful ingredient for 2 coaches. Specifically and talked about at the time.

If you read my post, I had different comments for Simpson and Brad Scott for their success.

Beveridge and Longmire you threw in their to muddy the waters on a post I added further context to.

But while your at it.

Beveridge won premierships and had a special level of success and reputation as a coach. Well publicised

Longmire had a long long apprenticeship under Paul Roos. Who has been seen as a guru of coaching and mentorship. I mean Melbourne got him in to set up and rebuild its culture as coach, then a succession plan for handing over to Goodwin.

I have first hand knowledge of what Roos did to sort out Melbourne. Fantastic leader and mentor. My organization used Roos only recently, again just fantastic

Voss, in my opinion, so we are clear could do with more help and greater experience around him than what he has. But thats only my opinion. Theres no downside to seeking help to improve.

CEOs of Fortune500 companies have mentors. We want to see the coach be successful dont we?





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As I stated, it may help, but there is no correlation that it guarantees success, nor does it inhibat success without a senior mentor

 

[jpfalvo]

With all due respect JP, you trott this out on a regular basis, "club stated finals" like you think it's a given, then use it as accountability evidence against the board/president/club

We have debated this before, the number one factor is a talented, cohesive, mature list

Clarkson before and after the elite talent is the best example to absorb

I dont trott anything out.

I submit with an image from the newspaper at the time. Direct quote from the President.

Its a statement of fact, and whats wrong with holding organisations to account. In this case Carlton.

Successful Organisations dont shy away from missed KPIs they analyse and deal with failure. Face it, address it and improve.

Ever read Alan Mullays book? He turned around Boeing and Ford. Both were failing businesses. For Ford he forced executives to own up to missed KPIs and failure.

Its pretty common business practice, that drives success.

I have not written we need pitchforks and need to burn princes park to the ground. I'm suggesting we shouldnt be scared of saying, we failed in meeting our objective of playing finals in 2022.

You think Luke Sayers, is not saying that internally?

Or you think he is saying, dont hold me to my own words, it was just for the media throng

If reports of his corporate success are true, he is relentless in his pursuit of success. He is a winner in business, he wont be accepting missed finals as ok

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[Arr0w]

St Kilda didn't have as much elite talent on the park last week...

Neither did the Crows the week before.. or at the very least, not to the tune of 9 goals.

Not every club sets finals as expectation. Come on get real here, there are many clubs who know they are in a rebuild phase and would be stupid to set that expectation on their playing group.

No one was setting finals expectations in Bolton's first couple of years...

Furthermore, there are clubs that are expecting top 4, not just finals. Clubs that are expecting to win a flag based on their previous couple of seasons...

Setting finals as an expectation should be the bare minimum this group can achieve this year. No more excuses.

But 8 years in to the rebuild, if they can't meet that expectation then it's more than fair for supporters to call them out on it.

No one mentioned all clubs, every year

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Clearly pointing out it was a successful ingredient for 2 coaches. Specifically and talked about at the time.

If you read my post, I had different comments for Simpson and Brad Scott for their success.

Beveridge and Longmire you threw in their to muddy the waters on a post I added further context to.

But while your at it.

Beveridge won premierships and had a special level of success and reputation as a coach. Well publicised

Longmire had a long long apprenticeship under Paul Roos. Who has been seen as a guru of coaching and mentorship. I mean Melbourne got him in to set up and rebuild its culture as coach, then a succession plan for handing over to Goodwin.

I have first hand knowledge of what Roos did to sort out Melbourne. Fantastic leader and mentor. My organization used Roos only recently, again just fantastic

Voss, in my opinion, so we are clear could do with more help and greater experience around him than what he has. But thats only my opinion. Theres no downside to seeking help to improve.

CEOs of Fortune500 companies have mentors. We want to see the coach be successful dont we?

100%

Just because other coaches haven't needed doesn't mean Voss could do without.

He was brought in as a great people person who can build relationships. But his flaw is game day tactics and it's there for everyone to see. No use whinging about injured talent not being out there to paper over those cracks... there's no way in this day and age a team will win a flag based on having more talent on most lines. Not gonna happen.

We have set high performance standards. They have not been met. The coach needs to address that. If he's not able to, then some additional help rather than sacking him would be the way to go imo.

 

[jpfalvo]

As I stated, it may help, but there is no correlation that it guarantees success, nor does it inhibat success without a senior mentor

Nothings guaranteed in life.

But if you never ever try, you never ever know, do you?

Whats the definition of insanity again? Doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different outcome?

Can it make Carlton worse by bringing in more experience, help and support?

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[Blue_Fusion]

No one mentioned all clubs, every year

...

Wouldn't be a club in the land that doesn't state the expectations would be finals

 

[Blue and Blue]

100%

Just because other coaches haven't needed doesn't mean Voss could do without.

He was brought in as a great people person who can build relationships. But his flaw is game day tactics and it's there for everyone to see. No use whinging about injured talent not being out there to paper over those cracks... there's no way in this day and age a team will win a flag based on having more talent on most lines. Not gonna happen.

We have set high performance standards. They have not been met. The coach needs to address that. If he's not able to, then some additional help rather than sacking him would be the way to go imo.

This is not true. What you mean is its there for you to see. However I don't see it. I see that when we have the ball more than the opposition and miss shots for goal and the other team doesnt miss the other team wins. Thats not tactics its execution.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

This is not true. What you mean is its there for you to see. However I don't see it. I see that when we have the ball more than the opposition and miss shots for goal and the other team doesnt miss the other team wins. Thats not tactics its execution.

Well, explain the reasoning behind playing Kennedy at half back?

Having no answer to Sinclair going into the middle?

Having no answer to Steele tagging Cripps in the second half?

Opposition makes changes, when those changes start turning the game, you need to respond to them.

And there have been other games...

Not to mention, the whole game plan this year being built around slow, keepings off by foot style... it clearly doesn't work especially for our team too.

 

[Arr0w]

I dont trott anything out.

You have posted it a number of times since the interview

I submit with an image from the newspaper at the time. Direct quote from the President.

Its a statement of fact, and whats wrong with holding organisations to account. In this case Carlton.

And you always omit a critical part from the interview

"Asked by Fox Sports News’ Sarah Olle how many games the next Carlton coach would be given to get the club back to finals, Sayers said: “I think that’s an impossible question to answer, Sarah."

Successful Organisations dont shy away from missed KPIs they analyse and deal with failure. Face it, address it and improve.

Absolutely, are you suggesting the clubs isn't taking this stance?

I have not written we need pitchforks and need to burn princes park to the ground. I'm suggesting we shouldnt be scared of saying, we failed in meeting our objective of playing finals in 2022.

Perhaps the omitted quote plays a part.

You think Luke Sayers, is not saying that internally?

If Sayers is s great leader, his first question would be, what do we need do, to get better

Or you think he is saying, dont hold me to my own words, it was just for the media throng

Again, the omitted quote

If reports of his corporate success are true, he is relentless in his pursuit of success. He is a winner in business, he wont be accepting missed finals as ok

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We should be confident then that he will drive the organisation to reach that success

 

[Arr0w]

Nothings guaranteed in life.

But if you never ever try, you never ever know, do you?

Whats the definition of insanity again? Doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different outcome?

Can it make Carlton worse by bringing in more experience, help and support?

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So change, for the sake of change, I don't subscribe to that in business

 

[Blue and Blue]

Well, explain the reasoning behind playing Kennedy at half back?

Having no answer to Sinclair going into the middle?

Having no answer to Steele tagging Cripps in the second half?

Opposition makes changes, when those changes start turning the game, you need to respond to them.

And there have been other games...

You would have to ask the coaches not me mate.
But if we had converted our chances there would be no problems with any of it.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

So change, for the sake of change, I don't subscribe to that in business

It's not for the sake of change.. it's for the sake of improving...

 

[Arr0w]

...

So, it doesn't state every year?

 

[Arr0w]

It's not for the sake of change.. it's for the sake of improving...

No guarantees it would improve by having a senior mentor, nor do you require one to win a flag

 

[Blue_Fusion]

You would have to ask the coaches not me mate.
But if we had converted our chances there would be no problems with any of it.

Can't understand this...

Let's say JSOS doesn't miss. At that stage it was still a goal for goal game. So how can we say no one has nay problems with it?

We can't rely on smashing teams in contested possession and belting the ball into our f50 and relying on our talented talls to get the job done.

I was calling out these new tactics in round 1... there are big problems with it.

If you want to have a side that places 8th-12th then you could be very happy with where we are going this year.

If you want a side that can win a premiership, then it's obvious that we need to address the shortcomings.

Voss is a guy who commands respect. Champion player no doubt. But doesn't always translate to being a great tactical coach. Until we accept that he has his flaws like every other coach, we will not be able to help him get the best out of himself.

 

[jpfalvo]

You have posted it a number of times since the interview


And you always omit a critical part from the interview

"Asked by Fox Sports News’ Sarah Olle how many games the next Carlton coach would be given to get the club back to finals, Sayers said: “I think that’s an impossible question to answer, Sarah."


Absolutely, are you suggesting the clubs isn't taking this stance?

Perhaps the omitted quote plays a part.


If Sayers is s great leader, his first question would be, what do we need do, to get better



Again, the omitted quote


We should be confident then that he will drive the organisation to reach that success

Twisting words to suit your narrative.

I have posted the link to the entire article in the past. But thankyou for not bothering to call that out to the group. CLEVERLY omitted I guess...

No one can predict if 14 games or 12 games makes finals in a year. And thus it wasnt the expectation set was it?

Sayers broad stroke expectation was Finals.

I quote Sayers verbatim.

And here it is again, again Michael Voss press conference on Sept 23rd 2021.



Luke Sayers, asked again on the "passmark" being to play finals, his response "absolutely we aspire to playing finals next year..."

Move on Arrow, the President set the benchmark. As supporters, all and it would seem except you, are entitled to expect a finals birth from this list sooner rather than later.

We have been a very patient supporter base

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[Blue_Fusion]

So, it doesn't state every year?

Doesn't have to...

 

[Blue_Fusion]

No guarantees it would improve by having a senior mentor, nor do you require one to win a flag

No guarantees without it either, so what's your point?

Stay in the sinking boat because the life raft might have a hole in it?

 

[Arr0w]

Twisting words to suit your narrative.

I have posted the link to the entire article in the past. But thankyou for not bothering to call that out to the group. CLEVERLY omitted I guess...

No one can predict if 14 games or 12 games makes finals in a year. And thus it wasnt the expectation set was it?

Sayers broad stroke expectation was Finals.

I quote Sayers verbatim.

And here it is again, again Michael Voss press conference on Sept 23rd 2021.



Luke Sayers, asked again on the "passmark" being to play finals, his response "absolutely we aspire to playing finals next year..."

Move on Arrow, the President set the benchmark. As supporters, all and it would seem expect you, are entitled to expect it a finals birth from this list sooner rather than later.

We have been a very patient supporter base

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JP, we have debated this a number of times

No, you didn't quote Sayers verbatim, you quoted your revised portion

‘We are looking to make finals in 2022’: Blues president makes bold call for next AFL season

Carlton’s president just made a bold finals claim that could haunt his club for 12 months

www.foxsports.com.au

“Our expectation, based on the list that we have, we are looking to make finals in 2022,” an unapologetic Sayers told reporters."


"Asked by Fox Sports News’ Sarah Olle how many games the next Carlton coach would be given to get the club back to finals, Sayers said: “I think that’s an impossible question to answer, Sarah."

At no time did it refer to how many wins were require to make finals

 

[Arr0w]

No guarantees without it either, so what's your point?

Stay in the sinking boat because the life raft might have a hole in it?

Not an analogy I would use for our current position, but you are entitled to your opinion

 

[jpfalvo]

What are you talking about. Again posted links to article in the past and image of the article now and in the past.

The first quote is 2022.
How many games relates to 2022.

The twitter of the press conference with Voss now appointed, 1 month later, is about finals 2022.

No one is suggesting to sack Voss here? Discussion is finals as an expectation. Set by Sayers own words. Twice.

Moving on...

Back to the your focus on the "games" quote, whats your interpretation of Ollies question?

Given this was pre Voss appointment?

How many games has the coach got to get to finals before being sacked?

If he says sitting next to Voss, 1 month later, and let me paraphrase so we dont get into your semantics.

Question: Passmark finals?
Answer: absolutely... and goes onto more... already said in earlier post


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[Blue_Fusion]

Not an analogy I would use for our current position, but you are entitled to your opinion

Regardless, there's no harm in taking that step.

 

[Arr0w]

Regardless, there's no harm in taking that step.

Have already stated as much, but not a priority in my mind