Coach Michael Voss

[azlou]

We need to be able to switch and slow the tempo to stop the huge runs against we got last year.
We also need to attack and run and gun and when we do we get scoring opportunities.

The balance between the two has been of a bit I think due in fact to our better runners and faster players being sidelined
A fast player can break to space making for an easy hit up or hard runner cottrell Walsh gut running to space.

With out Boyd Saad and a few others who have been in and out it puts additional pressure on kicker as they have to be far more precise
Even Doc who isn’t a great kick but gets space of a few steps then others have time to find space makes his kick easier
I don’t think what we are doing is much different to other teams we just need to tweak our balance between kick long territory and push up and switching possession and run and gun

One positive is we have shown we can implement all those methods in a game
My least favorite is the kick long territory game with the skill of teams the intercept and rebound is punishing I would rather look for the extra handball and find a target

The most basic human instinct is to correct things or people when you think you know the answer I’m not sure the answers aren’t subtler than some are suggesting
The Coaching group including Voss need to tweak some things but I’ve got a feeling a bit more speed will have a flow on effect through the whole team and system

 

[Michael Jezz]

I dont trott anything out.

I submit with an image from the newspaper at the time. Direct quote from the President.

Its a statement of fact, and whats wrong with holding organisations to account. In this case Carlton.

Successful Organisations dont shy away from missed KPIs they analyse and deal with failure. Face it, address it and improve.

Ever read Alan Mullays book? He turned around Boeing and Ford. Both were failing businesses. For Ford he forced executives to own up to missed KPIs and failure.

Its pretty common business practice, that drives success.

I have not written we need pitchforks and need to burn princes park to the ground. I'm suggesting we shouldnt be scared of saying, we failed in meeting our objective of playing finals in 2022.

You think Luke Sayers, is not saying that internally?

Or you think he is saying, dont hold me to my own words, it was just for the media throng

If reports of his corporate success are true, he is relentless in his pursuit of success. He is a winner in business, he wont be accepting missed finals as ok

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I am not convinced Luke Sayers drives standards. Infact we have not had a good president for 25 years.

 

[passmark]

Need to add some further clarity here on the successes of both Hardwick and Goodwin.

Hardwick had Neil Balme brought in to help him. It was seen as a major propellant to 2017 success at the time.

Goodwin had Mark Williams brought in as a senior mentor, again seen as major propellant in 2021.

What I have understood since the Bolton era is why we havent added our own Senior assistant/ mentor.

Bolton under Neil Craig, had a very good year and we seemed to go ok. Once Craig left that role was never adequately replaced.

I'd contend, it led to Boltons demise, Teague could have done with one, and Voss now, could do with one...

To follow the Hardwick/ Goodwin models, we should consider this.

Simpson had a unique system, and also got the team to a GF prior to his premiership

Scott, acknowledged he had to change his method to succeed, but also had the experience of finals and grand finals under the belt...

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I was hoping we might approach Balme given his influence over Geelong, Collingwood and the Tigers but he went to Adelaide.

I sometimes think our board and admin hire people they can push around, one reason I was so happy we secured Cook.

He’s basically Obe-Wan at the moment.

 

[passmark]

I am not convinced Luke Sayers drives standards. Infact we have not had a good president for 25 years.

40 years was the last good one.

The guy 25 years ago made us what we became. Shit.

 

[Blue1980]

I agree we will get a lot better. The "oh s**t" experience happened in the beginning of the season. What I don't believe is the list, and mental approach is near a premiership side. I think there is enough evidence to suggest this group's ceiling is 7th or 8th and a real overhaul of the list is required to turn us into a premiership side. If we are to contend quickly minimum 10 list changes at the end of 2023.

We have top end talent a-grade talent now, so we can look to add to it, it’s not like 2015 when we didn’t have any.

But as you stated above, it’s not enough to take us where we want to get to.

So it’s not a rebuild we need, we need a lot more than what we have.

We have gone through an extended rebuild which has so far got us 9th.

No more rebuilds though, we have top end talent and we can add to it. Rebuilds can be a cop out where no one cares about winning or losing, if we keep finishing 9th to 14th for another couple of years so be it, keep trying to win every game and develop some grit.

 

[HarryFlashman]

So change, for the sake of change, I don't subscribe to that in business

No, it’s change as something isn’t working/ for-filling potential.

 

[Earls Smother]

Hated hearing one of the St Kilda players interviewed after the game say “we knew if we were close to them at half time we were pretty certain we’d run over the top of them in the second half”.

Hated it because he was 100% spot on.

Just catching up on things here after being in Adelaide for Gather round and down in Melbourne over the Anzac period.

That is a real worry if we are still perceived that way. Last year someone posted that the Geelong coaching panel (the poster knew someone) thought the same way. The addition of Acres and Hollands should have gone some way to rectifying that issue. We know we are slow, but if we are still vulnerable endurance-wise, we are behind the 8 ball.

We have really only played 2 bad quarters - the first against the Crows and the third on Sunday. The trouble is, we get very little reward for our "good" quarters. We worked really hard for 2 and a half quarters against the Crows, but never looked like scoring quickly enough to catch them. The first half on Sunday, we were clearly the better side and could/should have been 3-5 goals up.

When you have to work so hard, a) it tires us, and b) the misses on goal are more demoralising. We are not getting reward for effort, so we become anxious about the next opportunity (and thus more likely to fail).

We all know we aren't getting enough scoring from our non Charlie/Harry forwards. If teams believe they can run over us, a large part of that is the defensive endurance of said forwards. That is why we are forced to play Ed on Sinclair at half forward - the others are incapable of keeping up with their opponents for a full game. Cottrell should play ASAP.

Another really obvious observation live on Sunday, was the total lack of overlap run in the last quarter. Part of that is definitely the missing Doc and Saad. Boyd will help when fully fit. Of the mids, Walsh (in his second game after a fairly serious injury) was the only one who looked dangerous in this regard. Cripps had worked himself in to the ground and Cerra had been good. The mix of Hewett and Kennedy when not 100% fully fit is terrible. Hewett looks like they fused 10 of his vertabrae, and Kennedy either plays his best role or not at all.

I can see why they are reluctant to add Dow to the current mix - he will only work in those circumstances if the ruckman is hitting it straight to him. He shouldn't pay the price for the failings of others though, or it begins to reek of selection bias that isn't rewarding form. O'Brien running along the boundary is not the answer in the situation where you are behind, as it is too easy to defend. The sub needs to be able to be more versatile - either run hard through the middle, or take over someone else's role to allow them to do it.

It feels like we are at a bit of a crossroad. Are we close and just need a few key components back? Or did we overachieve in the first half of last year and don't have enough depth after our top-liners? The last 2 weeks have been tough viewing, but I'm still optimistic it is the former.

 

[bourbons]

This is not true. What you mean is its there for you to see. However I don't see it. I see that when we have the ball more than the opposition and miss shots for goal and the other team doesnt miss the other team wins. Thats not tactics its execution.

Hmm dunno about that. The St Kilda game for example, SOS and Harry kick those ones they should have, I reckon we still lose. Fairly obvious St Kilda did us tactically/gameplan wise.

The gameplan is there for everyone to see, copped a fair bit of heat on On The Couch this week and (I've heard) on other shows. Would have though the fact that it ain't working is pretty obvious at this point. Apart from maybe 1 quarter vs North (with defenders on Harry and Charlie giving away about 10cms and 10kgs) it has looked putrid all year.

 

[agro]

Another really obvious observation live on Sunday, was the total lack of overlap run in the last quarter. Part of that is definitely the missing Doc and Saad. Boyd will help when fully fit. Of the mids, Walsh (in his second game after a fairly serious injury) was the only one who looked dangerous in this regard. Cripps had worked himself in to the ground and Cerra had been good. The mix of Hewett and Kennedy when not 100% fully fit is terrible. Hewett looks like they fused 10 of his vertabrae, and Kennedy either plays his best role or not at all.

We shouldn’t be relying on Docherty, Saad and Boyd for this overlap run- it should be a team ethos - everyone should be doing it.

 

[bourbons]

Ps. just on the finals/expectation discussion, come on - everyone, inside the club and outside, knows that finals are the bare minimum for 2023. Anything less is abject failure and has to be viewed as such.

 

[Arr0w]

Ps. just on the finals/expectation discussion, come on - everyone, inside the club and outside, knows that finals are the bare minimum for 2023. Anything less is abject failure and has to be viewed as such.

The discussion here, in my understanding, was what was stated leading into 2022

I see this year in a completely different light

 

[Bletch]

Ps. just on the finals/expectation discussion, come on - everyone, inside the club and outside, knows that finals are the bare minimum for 2023. Anything less is abject failure and has to be viewed as such.

Ok, sure. Coming into the season I rated us around 7-8, hope for a little higher, but also realise a little lower was a possibility. Either way, there's an expectation we should be playing finals, and sure, if we don't it's a failure. I can agree with that. But what then? What does failure mean to you?

Pick one:
a) Sack coach and/or coaching staff
b) Cut deeply into the list (10-15 players)
c) Sack medical/conditioning staff
d) Sack board/administration
e) All of the above
f) Conduct a post-season review of club performance, what worked well, what didn't, what were the key reasons for failure. Develop an improvement plan that focuses on the results of this review. Implement it.

If your answer isn't (f), why? And if it is, how does that differ whether you finish 8th or 9th? Or for that matter, if you finish 1st or 18th?

I don't disagree that we can look at another year without finals as a failure, but it's the "heads must roll" attitude that I don't get (and this isn't a comment aimed at you, I know you didn't say that). Frankly, that sort of attitude gets us as a club nowhere. And it certainly feels like we've acted like that for most of the past 20-odd years (probably much longer). Sack the coach, sack the players, sack the board. We've done all that, multiple times. What next? Any organization should be constantly looking critically at their performance, and implementing a program of continuous improvement. That may well include personnel changes, but it doesn't necessarily mean mass sackings just because of our position on the ladder.

 

[The Blue Weirdo]

Ok, sure. Coming into the season I rated us around 7-8, hope for a little higher, but also realise a little lower was a possibility. Either way, there's an expectation we should be playing finals, and sure, if we don't it's a failure. I can agree with that. But what then? What does failure mean to you?

Pick one:
a) Sack coach and/or coaching staff
b) Cut deeply into the list (10-15 players)
c) Sack medical/conditioning staff
d) Sack board/administration
e) All of the above
f) Conduct a post-season review of club performance, what worked well, what didn't, what were the key reasons for failure. Develop an improvement plan that focuses on the results of this review. Implement it.

If your answer isn't (f), why? And if it is, how does that differ whether you finish 8th or 9th? Or for that matter, if you finish 1st or 18th?

I don't disagree that we can look at another year without finals as a failure, but it's the "heads must roll" attitude that I don't get (and this isn't a comment aimed at you, I know you didn't say that). Frankly, that sort of attitude gets us as a club nowhere. And it certainly feels like we've acted like that for most of the past 20-odd years (probably much longer). Sack the coach, sack the players, sack the board. We've done all that, multiple times. What next? Any organization should be constantly looking critically at their performance, and implementing a program of continuous improvement. That may well include personnel changes, but it doesn't necessarily mean mass sackings just because of our position on the ladder.

It has to be (f), but that would quite likely include a bit of (a), otherwise it's just meetings and emails.

 

[jj1978]

Ok, sure. Coming into the season I rated us around 7-8, hope for a little higher, but also realise a little lower was a possibility. Either way, there's an expectation we should be playing finals, and sure, if we don't it's a failure. I can agree with that. But what then? What does failure mean to you?

Pick one:
a) Sack coach and/or coaching staff
b) Cut deeply into the list (10-15 players)
c) Sack medical/conditioning staff
d) Sack board/administration
e) All of the above
f) Conduct a post-season review of club performance, what worked well, what didn't, what were the key reasons for failure. Develop an improvement plan that focuses on the results of this review. Implement it.

If your answer isn't (f), why? And if it is, how does that differ whether you finish 8th or 9th? Or for that matter, if you finish 1st or 18th?

I don't disagree that we can look at another year without finals as a failure, but it's the "heads must roll" attitude that I don't get (and this isn't a comment aimed at you, I know you didn't say that). Frankly, that sort of attitude gets us as a club nowhere. And it certainly feels like we've acted like that for most of the past 20-odd years (probably much longer). Sack the coach, sack the players, sack the board. We've done all that, multiple times. What next? Any organization should be constantly looking critically at their performance, and implementing a program of continuous improvement. That may well include personnel changes, but it doesn't necessarily mean mass sackings just because of our position on the ladder.

Failure to reach the 8 will not see Voss sacked. Cook doesn't roll that way and unless Voss clearly shows he's way out of his league we're going to go down the Richmond continuity, give him enough time route I believe.

Failure to reach the 8 will mean we're going to have to inject something new to excite members and the list so can see;
1. Couple assistant coach changes and maybe some new skills specific coaches
2. Fitness crew restructured and possibly the exit of Russell
3. Risks at the trade table and list management. Still think we'll trade future first and arm ourselves to get 2 top kids. Expecting minimum of 12 changes to the list.

 

[bourbons]

Ok, sure. Coming into the season I rated us around 7-8, hope for a little higher, but also realise a little lower was a possibility. Either way, there's an expectation we should be playing finals, and sure, if we don't it's a failure. I can agree with that. But what then? What does failure mean to you?

Pick one:
a) Sack coach and/or coaching staff
b) Cut deeply into the list (10-15 players)
c) Sack medical/conditioning staff
d) Sack board/administration
e) All of the above
f) Conduct a post-season review of club performance, what worked well, what didn't, what were the key reasons for failure. Develop an improvement plan that focuses on the results of this review. Implement it.

If your answer isn't (f), why? And if it is, how does that differ whether you finish 8th or 9th? Or for that matter, if you finish 1st or 18th?

I don't disagree that we can look at another year without finals as a failure, but it's the "heads must roll" attitude that I don't get (and this isn't a comment aimed at you, I know you didn't say that). Frankly, that sort of attitude gets us as a club nowhere. And it certainly feels like we've acted like that for most of the past 20-odd years (probably much longer). Sack the coach, sack the players, sack the board. We've done all that, multiple times. What next? Any organization should be constantly looking critically at their performance, and implementing a program of continuous improvement. That may well include personnel changes, but it doesn't necessarily mean mass sackings just because of our position on the ladder.

Yeah definitely, I think we've probably had enough of the heads must roll approach over the last few years. Said elsewhere I think Voss has to see out his contract at a minimum, regardless of where we finish this year.

And to answer your question yep definitely f), with probably some b). If we miss finals safe to assume our current form has basically held all season, which would mean quite a few under-performing or perennially injured players. Probably time to make some hard calls on blokes in those categories.

 

[Michael Jezz]

40 years was the last good one.

The guy 25 years ago made us what we became. s**t.

Jack, was no angel. He won 2 premierships and then yes he blew the place up. But my point was we need that winning focus from the president down. STOP BEING THE NICE CLUB. You can not blame Jack, over 20 years after he left, for the Carlton Football Club's inability to resurrect. Is the Carlton Football Club going to take individual responsibility for its results or blame them on someone who has been dead for nearly 2 years.

 

[Aphrodite]

Any chance this thread can get BACK ON TOPIC


Michael Voss!


Thanks all.

 

[Accidental genius]

Any chance this thread can get BACK ON TOPIC


Michael Voss!


Thanks all.

Agreed.

voss was welcomed with open arms by most…

We’ve Sacked enough coaches and haven’t had much success although in last couple of years we’ve moved away from the bottom end of the ladder. Pretty much a mid tier club atm but I think if it were based on potential we should be in top 8.

i think sayers/cook/loyd need to look closely at how Voss and the coaching team are tracking…not just on yearly kpi’s but right now how are things unfolding so that they can try and correct things as required.

we can’t afford to miss finals this year. so how we are performing should be reviewed clisely. there are enough footy heads at the club to make the necessary changes.

 

[Blue and Blue]

Agreed.

voss was welcomed with open arms by most…

We’ve Sacked enough coaches and haven’t had much success although in last couple of years we’ve moved away from the bottom end of the ladder. Pretty much a mid tier club atm but I think if it were based on potential we should be in top 8.

i think sayers/cook/loyd need to look closely at how Voss and the coaching team are tracking…not just on yearly kpi’s but right now how are things unfolding so that they can try and correct things as required.

we can’t afford to miss finals this year. so how we are performing should be reviewed clisely. there are enough footy heads at the club to make the necessary changes.

Pretty sure thats what happens always. I reckon if any one of us were privvy to the inner sanctum we would be shocked surprised and have our eyes opened as to what really goes on and the efforts to succeed.
Unfortunately its not as easy as a few words of frustration on a website to fix it all just the way we want it to be.

 

[GeorgieBoyBlue2]

To change our game plan, player selection and position does that mean we need to change our coach?

If yes sack Voss.
If no make changes NOW.
TIP.... play to our strengths and flood the back half, only Charlie forward. That way we limit scoring as we can't. Charlie is our only hope atm.... love Charlie but it sad how bad we are. Mini REBOOT needed, draft and trades crucial.

 

[Accidental genius]

Pretty sure thats what happens always. I reckon if any one of us were privvy to the inner sanctum we would be shocked surprised and have our eyes opened as to what really goes on and the efforts to succeed.
Unfortunately its not as easy as a few words of frustration on a website to fix it all just the way we want it to be.

Accept what youre saying and I imagine that’s how any business should be run….but don’t sell what is mentioned on BF short though….few bright sparks here

 

[passmark]

Jack, was no angel. He won 2 premierships and then yes he blew the place up. But my point was we need that winning focus from the president down. STOP BEING THE NICE CLUB. You can not blame Jack, over 20 years after he left, for the Carlton Football Club's inability to resurrect. Is the Carlton Football Club going to take individual responsibility for its results or blame them on someone who has been dead for nearly 2 years.

Jack was a campaigner and a crook.
If your answer to our ailments are people like Jack Elliott and Ross Lyon your argument’s crap.

 

[bmaurizio]

The next 7 games, will reveal plenty, all dure, tough games, keeping my fingers crossed.

 

[gbatman]

You sack the coach it sets us back years. Players learn to accept that the coach will be sacked and go into standby, you get what Teague had towards the end, they were waiting for it to happen and stopped putting in out on the field. It messes with culture, it gives the players the sense they are above the coach, it gives them an out. You don't want that.

The coach needs time to be able to learn. Some have it straight away, some need to learn it. He might have got some things wrong but not as much as we are spruiking on here. IMO he has worked really hard on our defending and has got a lot right there.

The main thing, lets not overrate our team, he has not got the players. You can't ask us to play a particular way and play the same brand of footy some of the top sides are. We can't. We just don't have the players to play that way. We can't run like those teams.

I don't particularly think this is our fault. You could say we have recruited the wrong players. Yep at the time we weren't but we have recruited a lot of good footballers who don't bring to the team what we need. We also have injuries to a lot of players who do bring what we need.

I think the area Voss has let himself down is selection. He's brought in slow legs when he has had the opportunity to bring in fast legs.

As for game plan, we could probably go back to a go forward long, fast and hard into the congestion and see where that gets us. Sometimes worked, sometimes doesn't.

End of the day, if we attempt to go long and fast and go into the middle, we aren't quick on the outside so we don't have those guys running from behind to carry the ball and get to going forward. When we attempt this and turn it over, there just aren't enough quick legs to apply the pressure so we don't get burnt.

Not fit enough, not quick enough. Too many slow guys in the team, too many quick players on the sidelines.

We're all asking Voss to play a game style that would see us struggle with implementing it and get burnt when we turn it over. I think we could go a little more direct and we probably have to go with a run and gun and kick it long game to try get it to the back of the zone quicker, that's something I would be looking to do but it's not guaranteed to have great results.

What we need to do is start trying to develop some running defenders to release our current ones up the field. That means getting Boyd and Cincotta in and pushing them really hard to see if we can get them to a high level. Get Docherty on the ball. Pick Dow and really persist with him. Work on Walsh's game. He's a back of the contest accumulator who does not use his pace enough running through the contest and forward of the contest, IMO Walsh plays it a bit safe with his possessions and where he draws the ball. Minimise How many big slow heave units we have out on the field. Cripps, Kennedy, Hewett are good footballers but it's too much big, slow and immobile. Rotate them. Cripps forward more, Kennedy forward more, one to play as the sub. Work on having two of Dow, Docherty, Walsh, Cerra on the ball at all times. More onball for Fisher who is a part of that group.

Hit the draft and focus on speed. Fast backs who take it on and kick well, fast forwards who chase and tackle, fast onballers who can run distance and take the game on a bit and run both ways.

If he has a quick team and fails to move the ball, then we have coaching issues.

 

[NewDarkNavyBlues]

Fisher survives again. If the argument to back Voss is based on “not sacking another coach” then it’s tenuous at best.