Coach Michael Voss

[SkyhorseTamer]

I actually thought it was pretty good - 85 points from turnover what do you want him to do? Kick it for them under no pressure .. fact of the matter is the players can’t execute under pressure and that’s not the coaches fault.

We turn the ball over too much and it’s our so called good players that are the culprits ..
Walsh, Cripps, weiters .. it’s a list management issue as much as anything we haven’t recruited enough top 6 AFL standard ball users and it shows.

How can you win so many stats and yet get pumped like that? .. simple answer .. teams fold back wait for our mistakes and hurt us on the rebound .. and there’s plenty of opportunities for them to do it …

Low IQ footballers with sub par skills the list is miles off it

Collingwood couldn't kick for shit. Coaching change and top 4. Guess they needed better list management too.

It's not one or the other ffs. It's both. Coach not doing right by turnover prone players. Players not doing right by coach.

 

[Blue1980]

I think we have an average playing list and average coach.

Only thing to make the above average playing list better is a better coach. I can't think of a world where Ross Lyon wouldn't make this side better.

Now both the coach and playing list could get better. Only coaches I think which could improve us would be Hinkley or maybe Buckley (of ones which are gettable).

Though looking at our list, its pretty insane that me or anyone else expected us to be a top 4 or 6 side. Only way we can match the very best sides would be them having off days or our very best players all playing out of their skins.

In saying that, Brisbane are a bloody good side. Talent wise I think they are the best team in the AFL. If they get a decent run with injury, they should win the flag. Only sides who can get near them are Melb, Pies and Cats. Maybe Port at their very best too.

Looking at it dispassionately though, I think there are more than 8 sides better than us. Like is there any actual evidence we are better than Essendon or Gold Coast?

 

[TENACIOUS]

Voss "Can't fault their effort, their effort was good"

WTF happened to you mate...

IMO...
He needs better assistant coaches around him...

 

[Blue1980]

Voss "Can't fault their effort, their effort was good"

WTF happened to you mate...

IMO...
He needs better assistant coaches around him...

I would like to think what he is saying behind closed doors is different, what he was saying at 3 quarter time looked different.

The next 4-5 weeks could get ugly for him and the club though. 2012 vibes at the moment.

 

[Blue By Blood]

I'm trying to take emotion out of it and think with logic. So I thought about what makes a good coach (outside of winning obviously).
I think the main key metric of what makes a coach good is if he make the players around him better. He instills confidence in the players. They clearly know their roles and what is expected of them. They learn the fundamentals and they learn the one percenters. Now lets look at these points.

It's pretty evident at the moment that our players are lacking confidence. It's also evident that there seems to be confusion about roles on gameday. Tonight we got the 6-6-6 setup wrong on two occasions and subsequently gave away a free. I believe this also happened the week prior. Not the sign of the most organised and well drilled team.

We continually make silly mistakes such as not rushing the behind on the goal line. We spoil the ball back into play rather than for a point or over the boundary. We often panic release handball when tackled rather than absorbing contact and forcing the ball-up (some serial offenders of this). Our smalls don't get front and centre for crumbs even though with the current game style we bomb long, which should give them even more opportunity to do so. Our key forwards rarely lead at the ball carrier instead preferring to play behind the defender to get the over the back goal- this in turn stagnates ball movement because the mids and backs see no easy target to kick to. This can lead to us going into our shell and the slow play kicks up a gear. The one percenters seem lacking. Now a lot of this this could be panic- but even if it's panic that's on a lack of preparation to try to mimic those situations and prepare as best as possible. If it's the players just not being strong enough mentally then we need to look into changing over our sport psychologist(s).

How many of our players are better since Voss has taken over? Would love to hear opinions on that.

I don't want us to have to fire another coach so I'm rooting for him to turn it around. He took over with the mantra of an immediate finals berth. If he goes two years without that then it will be interesting what happens. Maybe we overrated our list, that's definitely possible. Maybe it's Voss. I actually have no clue anymore. I'd just like us to at least go down swinging having played to our strengths if we are to lose. At the moment it never really feels like we have a chance against the good teams with the current method as we just don't generate enough scoring attempts with the amount of ball we get.

 

[Thrawn]

The next 4-5 weeks could get ugly for him and the club though. 2012 vibes at the moment.

Nah, at least in 2012 we were premiership favourites at one point and demolished the grand finalists.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

LOL at people suggesting that we may be just as good with Teague considering our list is now much stronger. Do they forgot that Teague had NFI by not playing young guns like SPS, Setters, Dow and LOB in their correct positions or at all?
Oh wait…..

 

[Blue1980]

I'm trying to take emotion out of it and think with logic. So I thought about what makes a good coach (outside of winning obviously).
I think the main key metric of what makes a coach good is if he make the players around him better. He instills confidence in the players. They clearly know their roles and what is expected of them. They learn the fundamentals and they learn the one percenters. Now lets look at these points.

It's pretty evident at the moment that our players are lacking confidence. It's also evident that there seems to be confusion about roles on gameday. Tonight we got the 6-6-6 setup wrong on two occasions and subsequently gave away a free. I believe this also happened the week prior. Not the sign of the most organised and well drilled team.

We continually make silly mistakes such as not rushing the behind on the goal line. We spoil the ball back into play rather than for a point or over the boundary. We often panic release handball when tackled rather than absorbing contact and forcing the ball-up (some serial offenders of this). Our smalls don't get front and centre for crumbs even though with the current game style we bomb long, which should give them even more opportunity to do so. Our key forwards rarely lead at the ball carrier instead preferring to play behind the defender to get the over the back goal- this in turn stagnates ball movement because the mids and backs see no easy target to kick to. This can lead to us going into our shell and the slow play kicks up a gear. The one percenters seem lacking. Now a lot of this this could be panic- but even if it's panic that's on a lack of preparation to try to mimic those situations and prepare as best as possible. If it's the players just not being strong enough mentally then we need to look into changing over our sport psychologist(s).

How many of our players are better since Voss has taken over? Would love to hear opinions on that.

I don't want us to have to fire another coach so I'm rooting for him to turn it around. He took over with the mantra of an immediate finals berth. If he goes two years without that then it will be interesting what happens. Maybe we overrated our list, that's definitely possible. Maybe it's Voss. I actually have no clue anymore. I'd just like us to at least go down swinging having played to our strengths if we are to lose. At the moment it never really feels like we have a chance against the good teams with the current method as we just don't generate enough scoring attempts with the amount of ball we get.

In terms of improved or played their best footy under Voss (which could of happened anyway):

Cripps (career best season last year, this year back to maybe a bit better than 20-21 but not as good as prior)

Charlie Curnow (caveat is he may of done the same before if not injured)

Saad (career best footy 22-23)

Young (surely a big win for development)

Doc (back to his best last year after middling 20-21)

Kennedy (much better player 22-23 than previous)

Newman probably had his best footy played 22-23

Cottrell looked improved last year to previous

Owies maybe better?

So from the above Voss and co can take some credit for the above and for others probably just incremental improvement.

It does also highlight how little the core group has changed from last season. They have given the group a chance to improve, but doesn’t look like they are capable.

 

[Irish BlueBagger]

Yep.

He probably deserves until the end of 2024 but how far into the primes of Cripps, Doc, Saad, 2015 crop do we want to go?

A new coach needs time to implement their own structures and spin on the list.

I don’t want us to waste what we have. Not sure the club will have the balls to make the hard call this time around.

The last throw of the dice as such, would be to change up the assistant coaches and see how that goes. The way i see it we're stuck with Vossy until the end of the 2024 season at least.

We've got the Bulldogs, Pies, Swans, Demons and an improving Bombers team coming up next. I'm still hoping we can get three wins at least out of that run of fixtures.

 

[95blues]

I actually thought it was pretty good - 85 points from turnover what do you want him to do? Kick it for them under no pressure .. fact of the matter is the players can’t execute under pressure and that’s not the coaches fault.

We turn the ball over too much and it’s our so called good players that are the culprits ..
Walsh, Cripps, weiters .. it’s a list management issue as much as anything we haven’t recruited enough top 6 AFL standard ball users and it shows.

How can you win so many stats and yet get pumped like that? .. simple answer .. teams fold back wait for our mistakes and hurt us on the rebound .. and there’s plenty of opportunities for them to do it …

Low IQ footballers with sub par skills the list is miles off it

Even Fagan himself said our disposal was poor.

 

[tarczonandjane]

I have a mate who worked for Sayers at PwC (note the word for, rather than with. My mate is reasonably high up in the organisation, but he never worked directly with Sayers).

His view on Sayers is of a transactional leader, rather than a transformational one. Someone who smells the direction of the wind, and then charts course. He was not critical of Sayers, but painted him as a fairly conservative leader (conservative in this sense, meaning low risk) who does things which are obvious.

My reading is that I would be amazed if Voss is sacked this year. What I could see is Sayers sizing this up as a Dimma moment at Richmond before their flags. That is, what can we do to improve the place?

I will guess there will be an internal review. It will focus on helping Voss improve, possibly with better coaching support. It will look at health and performance and make a few changes there, and it will consider player development. Drafting and recruiting will be charged with bringing in foot skills and pace.

Then we will lock and reload, and see what 2024 brings. Depressing to be writing off another season so early.

 

[HarryFlashman]

Voss is a stubborn prick, his system is bullshit, it doesn’t even come close to allowing players to actually just play & show case their natural ability. Bloke was a bull but has seemingly forgotten that it was the creativity and flair of his team mates that made his team great.
Reflects in his dour system & approach to coaching.
I’d take him being a right prick & drilling the team into the ground, at least that would stop the stupid mistakes on the goal line & ineffective spoils back into the corridor, thing is he isn’t even doing that. Bloke is lost

 

[smashbox gill]

I think Voss is a man leader rather than a tactical coach.

Need to surround him with quality assistants with strong tactical sense.

Look at who Macrae has around him vs what Voss has around him.

I hope the review finally gets rid of Brad Lloyd. Survived the review just, was proactive that off-season but has been a bystander every other. Time to go and bring in a proven footy boss.

Out: Brad Lloyd, Andrew Russell, Aaron Hamil, Tim Clark, Greeves (what does he even do?)

Bring in quality with proven experience.

 

[95blues]

A lot of people crying "gameplan" without actually articulating what they want to see.

Which one of Ross Lyons "gameplans" survives 80+ points directly from turnovers?

You didn't see them play short, then switch to direct and again change to handballing more when the Lions took away our short kick options?

There were two options left in this game:

1. Swap forwards with defenders (Voss oversight 100%)

2. Kick the ball to the players in Blue (Voss not strategic enough to instruct this?)

This team is probably the worst team in the AFL for footskills, what gameplan works with that?

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

A lot of people crying "gameplan" without actually articulating what they want to see.

Which one of Ross Lyons "gameplans" survives 80+ points directly from turnovers?

You didn't see them play short, then switch to direct and again change to handballing more when the Lions took away our short kick options?

There were two options left in this game:

1. Swap forwards with defenders (Voss oversight 100%)

2. Kick the ball to the players in Blue (Voss not strategic enough to instruct this?)

This team is probably the worst team in the AFL for footskills, what gameplan works with that?

Which one of Ross gameplans puts his players under constant pressure with no outlet kicks, has no method for exiting d50 and has the multiple players running into the same space for a kick where one should be creating space. The Lyon game plan is so simple too. Fold back, effort, spread to the outlet wing hard, keep spacing between you and your teammates on the spread and have the small forwards involved in transition.

Defending Voss gameplan is a big yikes atm. Not coming for Voss head but I will obliterate the gameplan he's 'trying'. Needs to be retooled/ layers added etc. I just haven't seen such bad spacing and creating for team mates since underage football .-.

The wide angle shots whilst our key backs play kick mark across the backline are so saddening. Literally stationary players sitting in the lions zone. No one's pulling a player out of their spot by leading so someone else can lead into the created space. The only chance our system allows us to beat a zone press is a contested mark, 50m free or a Saad overlap run. Not consistently reliable options....

 

[M_I_G]

We’d be better off trying to torp it from a kick in.
Every time we have one it’s like watching a club take a kick in for the first time in their existence. This has been a problem all year.
No strategy. Only “hope saad can get free and get a few 1-2s”
We need the person receiving the kick in to be the better thinker and ball user, too often that’s the person taking the initial kick.

 

[95blues]

Which one of Ross gameplans puts his players under constant pressure with no outlet kicks, has no method for exiting d50 and has the multiple players running into the same space for a kick where one should be creating space. The Lyon game plan is so simple too. Fold back, effort, spread to the outlet wing hard, keep spacing between you and your teammates on the spread and have the small forwards involved in transition.

Defending Voss gameplan is a big yikes atm. Not coming for Voss head but I will obliterate the gameplan he's 'trying'. Needs to be retooled/ layers added etc. I just haven't seen such bad spacing and creating for team mates since underage football .-.

The wide angle shots whilst our key backs play kick mark across the backline are so saddening. Literally stationary players sitting in the lions zone. No one's pulling a player out of their spot by leading so someone else can lead into the created space. The only chance our system allows us to beat a zone press is a contested mark, 50m free or a Saad overlap run. Not consistently reliable options....

I won't judge any coaches gameplan while the players are incapable of executing even VFL level disposal.

"Layers", "spacing", "outlet wing". Blah blah. How's the ball getting there?

 

[Gointocarlton]

We’d be better off trying to torp it from a kick in.
Every time we have one it’s like watching a club take a kick in for the first time in their existence. This has been a problem all year.
No strategy. Only “hope saad can get free and get a few 1-2s”
We need the person receiving the kick in to be the better thinker and ball user, too often that’s the person taking the initial kick.

The kicker needs to be an elite decision maker with equivalent foot skills to be able to penetrate a zone or man on man oppo set up. Who is that for us? Forget the short kick to the pocket which my mum could do. Who's our guy that can kick 30 to 40m darts with monotonous regularity to players trying to counter the opposition set up? We dont have one.

 

[Gointocarlton]

I won't judge any coaches gameplan while the players are incapable of executing even VFL level disposal.

"Layers", "spacing", "outlet wing". Blah blah. How's the ball getting there?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[Warsaw]

Voss almost needs to work because if he doesn't then it's an admission by the club that we've failed a generation of players.

4 coaches in 7 years does very little to support the growth of a team and it'd be fair to suggest that how good a player on the list is, is far more due to their own natural ability rather than how the club has actually developed as players as part of a system.

 

[HarryFlashman]

OMG! Watch the press conference! his body language is incredible.
It’s obviously not an exact science but u can clearly tell when he’s defensive, agitated, blatantly lying etc.
Just watch the defensive posturing, covering up, hand over the mouth, inflating himself to appear larger, eye contact, retreating- with even the most basic understanding it’s an amazing thing to witness how bad that press conference went.

 

[95blues]

OMG! Watch the press conference! his body language is incredible.
It’s obviously not an exact science but u can clearly tell when he’s defensive, agitated, blatantly lying etc.
Just watch the defensive posturing, covering up, hand over the mouth, inflating himself to appear larger, eye contact, retreating- with even the most basic understanding it’s an amazing thing to witness how bad that press conference went.

Did you see Thestrals too?

 

[Michael Jezz]

I have a mate who worked for Sayers at PwC (note the word for, rather than with. My mate is reasonably high up in the organisation, but he never worked directly with Sayers).

His view on Sayers is of a transactional leader, rather than a transformational one. Someone who smells the direction of the wind, and then charts course. He was not critical of Sayers, but painted him as a fairly conservative leader (conservative in this sense, meaning low risk) who does things which are obvious.

My reading is that I would be amazed if Voss is sacked this year. What I could see is Sayers sizing this up as a Dimma moment at Richmond before their flags. That is, what can we do to improve the place?

I will guess there will be an internal review. It will focus on helping Voss improve, possibly with better coaching support. It will look at health and performance and make a few changes there, and it will consider player development. Drafting and recruiting will be charged with bringing in foot skills and pace.

Then we will lock and reload, and see what 2024 brings. Depressing to be writing off another season so early.

Leadership is not a transactional undertaking. Consultancy is.
Join the dots Sayers is not a leader.

 

[HarryFlashman]

Did you see Thestrals too?

All over the ground, u should too given how quickly our confidence died.
Watch the press conference, then be a smart ass after, it’s incredible

 

[lilJeffyG]

Definite shades of 2014 to me.

Mature coaches appointed a bit out of drsperation because after years of failure we absolutely had to have a mature coach to get us 'over the hump' (haha).

In both first years 2013 and 2022 we finish 9th with a bizarre twist to end the year.

Second year a bit of the gloss wears off, we have some good games against weaker teams but look a mile off the pace against good teams. It also becomes clear that the game plan and coaching strategy are just totally wrong for the players we have.

Meanwhile...

• time is passing by for some of the older stars, while other older guys start looking checked out
• we absolutely flubbed some critical draft periods and have very little in the 20-22 age bracket to advance the team forward.

Also part of this is the realisation that we maybe weren't totally fair to the prior coach. In hindsight Teague had Curnow missing almost his entire tenure, had to deal with the Covid bubble, lockdowns and limitations on training in both years... and was essentially gone less than two years into the job.

How about we forget about order stars or any stars in general, give me workmanlike role players all over the field and they will beat your individualised selfish stars any day.