Coach Michael Voss

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What is clear is Voss is not a tactical/strategist type coach. He’s a people leader - assuming this is his strength.

Which if so, it begs the question why we have not surrounded him with tactically sound assistants.

This rests solely in the hands on Brad Lloyd. What has he been doing?
 
I’m not for or against Voss as a coach perse, I’m just sick of the revolving door of coaches, especially when our on field leadership is deplorable.
Stop playing like a bunch of entitled Prima donna’s, use your friggin brains and attempt to play like a team, not individuals.
Set high standards and live by them…..Cripps and co. It’s up to you guys to turn it around.
 
blues4flag said:
Yep.

Nothing has really changed since last year. Under Voss we've been predictable - lose to the top 8 sides, beat the bottom 10 sides.

Since round 3 last year:
3 wins, 12 losses against top 8 sides
11 wins, 1 draw, 3 losses vs bottom 10 sides

Main difference between where we stood after 10 rounds last season and this season is
1) new coach bounce / teams working out our gameplan
2) the quality of opposition we played in the opening 10 rounds
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The other important factor Cripps/Walsh/Weitering/Saad/Hewitt & among others are not even remotely close to last year's form & capability, l don't believe any of us answers on that, most teams need their best players close to their best.
 

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I still think it's the people who make up the rest of the coaching group that need questions asked. To have an oppo VFL coach so matter of factly state in a Q time interview that "we knew what they were going to do so we set up for that and they did exactly what we thought they would and they didn't really change it up and that's why we are in the position we're in" (para-phrase obviously) is pretty damning on our coaching IQ.
 
blue healer said:
Interesting you say we're far from contending mode but it's a list that should win as many as 15 games.

I also thought that. We won 12 last year and lost 3 by a grand total of 10 points. With incremental improvement and the pain of a such a near finals miss why would we not see15 wins as this seasons benchmark?

BTW, 15 wins finished fifth last year and in the top four every year back til 2016 (I've not bothered going back any further) and both the Bulldogs and Richmond actually won the flag with that many wins.

So how can this list not be in contending mode if it's capable of winning 15 games.

Suddenly our woes are all being blamed on our list which is the best balanced at present that it has been this century. Not confident that our team selections reflect this balance though.

I don't know what's going wrong with this club but it is very painful watching. I've never been in favor of sacking coaches mid contract and I'm not going to start now but for the few who actually think we should extend his contract now...I don't think so.
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It's a fine line really. 12-15 wins is also based on a mid tier draw and with an extra round, it's unlikely that 15 wins gets you in the top 4

I wouldn't make a call this early, just review it ongoing, then make some changes year's end
 
GT619 said:
Why didn't we interview macrae
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Timelines didn't align. Collingwood wrapped him up well before our "process" was in motion. Plus Carlton made "experience" a prerequisite which would have ruled McRae out.

McRae in isolation isn't the full story. Look at their assistants. By comparison our football department is garbage.
 
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blueblooded said:
I disagree wholeheartedly with this statement.
what makes the list good enough to play finals?
Cripps won a brownlow last year and Charlie won the Coleman, we had 3 AA players and we still didn't qualify!

The list is slow, has extremely poor footskills overall, lacks a quality third forward, lacks experienced small forwards who can lock the ball in the forward half and hit the scoreboard, lacks a good intercept defender (dont talk about Marchbank please!!), apart from an in form Weitering lacks for quality lockdown defenders (Young was given away for a packet of chips by the bulldogs when they were crying out for lockdown defenders and his form this year shows why).

To top it all off the players that could provide a point of difference (Cunningham, Williams, Martin, dare I say it Marchbank) are perennially injured and or lazy, with the majority of this crew to be out the door at the end of the year.

So explain to me why this list is better than any of the lists in the 10 sides above us right now? i'm all ears!
Click to expand...

The team we played last night:

  • has no key position forwards at all. They are making do with Mason Cox (uggh), Ash Johnson (193cm, 26 year old rookie) and Brody Mihocek (192cm, 30 years old).
  • has a treacle-slow midfield. Tom Mitchell? 34 year old Pendlebury? 32yo Steele Sidebottom? Taylor Adams? Walsh, Cripps and Cerra would lap them in a 400m race if it was about pure foot speed.
  • has serious injury concerns: missing two of their best defenders (Howe/Maynard), already woeful KP and ruck stocks depleted
  • cobbled together players to fill gaps from the scrap heap. Bobby Hill? John Noble is STILL rookie listed. Oleg Markov?
  • Has 5 players who have made an All-Australian team in their career. 4 of those turn 30 or more this year and are clearly past their prime. (in comparison - we have 6, all of whom are aged 23-28)

There is no conceivable way that you can say Collingwood have a better list than we do. Sure, we have weaknesses, but theirs are glaring too.

And yet they sit a game clear on top of the ladder and beat us handsomely while barely breaking a sweat.

Two years ago, Collingwood looked like we did. Slow, poor skills, unable to execute under pressure, and a bottom 4 team. 18 months later and they are well organised, play with clear structure and purpose, and they are the 'fastest' team in the league. The difference is coaching, plain and simple. They have a very good one and we have an extremely poor one
 
blueblooded said:
I disagree wholeheartedly with this statement.
what makes the list good enough to play finals?
Cripps won a brownlow last year and Charlie won the Coleman, we had 3 AA players and we still didn't qualify!

The list is slow, has extremely poor footskills overall, lacks a quality third forward, lacks experienced small forwards who can lock the ball in the forward half and hit the scoreboard, lacks a good intercept defender (dont talk about Marchbank please!!), apart from an in form Weitering lacks for quality lockdown defenders (Young was given away for a packet of chips by the bulldogs when they were crying out for lockdown defenders and his form this year shows why).

To top it all off the players that could provide a point of difference (Cunningham, Williams, Martin, dare I say it Marchbank) are perennially injured and or lazy, with the majority of this crew to be out the door at the end of the year.

So explain to me why this list is better than any of the lists in the 10 sides above us right now? i'm all ears!
Click to expand...
OK All Ears
If this list missed the Finals by 1 point last year and has been supposedly improved by a couple of good additions then we should be good enough (with more expected improvement) to make the Finals this year..
Just my opinion , which are like assholes , we all have one ..

That ok with you ?
 
btdg said:
The team we played last night:

  • has no key position forwards at all. They are making do with Mason Cox (uggh), Ash Johnson (193cm, 26 year old rookie) and Brody Mihocek (192cm, 30 years old).
  • has a treacle-slow midfield. Tom Mitchell? 34 year old Pendlebury? 32yo Steele Sidebottom? Taylor Adams? Walsh, Cripps and Cerra would lap them in a 400m race if it was about pure foot speed.
  • has serious injury concerns: missing two of their best defenders (Howe/Maynard), already woeful KP and ruck stocks depleted
  • cobbled together players to fill gaps from the scrap heap. Bobby Hill? John Noble is STILL rookie listed. Oleg Markov?
  • Has 5 players who have made an All-Australian team in their career. 4 of those turn 30 or more this year and are clearly past their prime. (in comparison - we have 6, all of whom are aged 23-28)

There is no conceivable way that you can say Collingwood have a better list than we do. Sure, we have weaknesses, but theirs are glaring too.

And yet they sit a game clear on top of the ladder and beat us handsomely while barely breaking a sweat.

Two years ago, Collingwood looked like we did. Slow, poor skills, unable to execute under pressure, and a bottom 4 team. 18 months later and they are well organised, play with clear structure and purpose, and they are the 'fastest' team in the league. The difference is coaching, plain and simple. They have a very good one and we have an extremely poor one
Click to expand...

Collingwood have multiple players who have the ball on a string and can put it on a 10c piece by both foot and hand.
i'll list them:

  • Nick Daicos
  • Josh Daicos
  • Pendlebury
  • Sidebottom
  • De Goey
  • Quaynor
  • Moore
  • Maynard

I could go on.

Who have we got?
 
Sonny Jim said:
Voss is the only coach since Ratten that has given us some semblance of a cohesive gameplan.

Everyone else was a shambles, except Malthouse who's entire plan was completely rubbish anyway.
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Genuine question (not trying to spark a war of words):

…if Malthouse was given the keys to the rebuild and backed in with a new 5 year contract in 2014, do you think we would still be without a finals appearance 9 years later?

Question is open to everyone to comment on of course?
 
btdg said:
The team we played last night:

  • has no key position forwards at all. They are making do with Mason Cox (uggh), Ash Johnson (193cm, 26 year old rookie) and Brody Mihocek (192cm, 30 years old).
  • has a treacle-slow midfield. Tom Mitchell? 34 year old Pendlebury? 32yo Steele Sidebottom? Taylor Adams? Walsh, Cripps and Cerra would lap them in a 400m race if it was about pure foot speed.
  • has serious injury concerns: missing two of their best defenders (Howe/Maynard), already woeful KP and ruck stocks depleted
  • cobbled together players to fill gaps from the scrap heap. Bobby Hill? John Noble is STILL rookie listed. Oleg Markov?
  • Has 5 players who have made an All-Australian team in their career. 4 of those turn 30 or more this year and are clearly past their prime. (in comparison - we have 6, all of whom are aged 23-28)

There is no conceivable way that you can say Collingwood have a better list than we do. Sure, we have weaknesses, but theirs are glaring too.

And yet they sit a game clear on top of the ladder and beat us handsomely while barely breaking a sweat.

Two years ago, Collingwood looked like we did. Slow, poor skills, unable to execute under pressure, and a bottom 4 team. 18 months later and they are well organised, play with clear structure and purpose, and they are the 'fastest' team in the league. The difference is coaching, plain and simple. They have a very good one and we have an extremely poor one
Click to expand...
Collingwood list far superior imo. Less stars but most of them can actually execute the game's core skill ie. kick the football to a team mate.
 

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blueblooded said:
Collingwood have multiple players who have the ball on a string and can put it on a 10c piece by both foot and hand.
i'll list them:

  • Nick Daicos
  • Josh Daicos
  • Pendlebury
  • Sidebottom
  • De Goey
  • Quaynor
  • Moore
  • Maynard

I could go on.

Who have we got?
Click to expand...

That wasn't what people thought 12 months ago, when we were 8-2 and Collingwood 5-5.

If it is purely about foot skills, then Saad, Docherty, Cerra, McGovern, Weitering, Newman, Hewitt, Charlie Curnow, even Walsh stack up to that list just fine.

But it isn't just about skills. McGovern might be able to hoof the ball 60m onto a 10c piece, but if we haven't created the space and don't have anyone running to that spot who cares? He just ends up blasting it aimlessly down the line.

And it should be about playing to your strengths and buidling a system that maximises that.

Who do Collingwood have that even remotely touches Charlie or Harry as a key forward? Who do they have that matches Cripps as a contested beast who can push forward to be an aerial threat? Their midfield doesn't have nearly the depth of ours with our capacity to rotate through just as many guys. We may not be able to match everything they do but to not hit 75 points in 5 straight games (excluding the West Coast farce) is testament to how poor our system is using our best weapons.
 
bourbons said:
Collingwood list far superior imo. Less stars but most of them can actually execute the game's core skill ie. kick the football to a team mate.
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Oh god I disagree so strongly with this. Collingwood personifies system over talent, and the role that system has in maximising player output.

Here's 10 names from Collingwood's side yesterday that would look completely lost in our "system".. Quaynor, Noble, Murphy, Hill, Johnson, Hoskin-Eliott, Cox, Mihochek, McCreery, Markov.
 
kreuze_missile said:
The "we can't sack another coach" argument is the equivalent of choosing to stay in a bad marriage just because you were previously divorced.
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More like Carlton wanting to just stick around till the honey moon period is over and dumping them for the next high.

That's basically all we've ever done for decades now.
 
kreuze_missile said:
Timelines didn't align. Collingwood wrapped him up well before our "process" was in motion. Plus Carlton made "experience" a prerequisite which would have ruled McRae out.

McRae in isolation isn't the full story. Look at their assistants. By comparison our football department is garbage.
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In our initial press conference when announcing Voss, didn't we specifically say we wanted a coach with senior coaching experience? He was the only person. I don't count Ross Lyon cause of our Carlton Respects initiative and his issues at Freo.
 
smashbox gill said:
We really need Brian Cook to earn his keep this offseason.

We need a new footy boss to replace Lloyd. Someone experienced from a successful program. A Neil Balme type.

We need a full clean out of assistants and to bring in some experienced heads from good football programs. We need at-least one former coach - Don Pyke, Leon Cameron, Brenton Sanderson etc

Need someone from Richmond, Geelong, Sydney footy programs.

Need an assistant who sole focus is game plan, ball movement and strategy - Caracella

Don Pyke, Blake Caracella, Andrew McQualter, Nigel Lappin, Daniel Gianciracusa

We really need to invest in a leading teams type program. There’s something fundamentally wrong with our mentality and will to win. It’s been like this for years
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Agree with all of this.
 
I have no idea if Voss is a good coach or not....or if the current list is good enough or not to play finals. Or a combination of both. But one thing we do know for a fact is that we are currently sitting mid table and well off the pace. AND we have gone backwards at a rate of knots since last year.

Carlton have never been a club to sit idly on its hands and just leave our fate in the lap of the gods to determine. And you wouldn't expect it will change anytime soon.

Cook was brought into the club as our key administrator the same time Sayers took over the presidency and Voss was appointed as head coach...with a whole bunch of new assistants following. His mantra at the time was to maintain a level of stability across the whole club following the recent turmoil and change, all the way down to the playing list. It would also give him time to assess the club as a whole, and make necessary changes during his tenure there. He did the same at Geelong upon his arrival there.

"Cook was then appointed as CEO of the Geelong Football Club in 1999.[9] At the end of the 1999 season, Cook informed then-Geelong Football Club senior coach Gary Ayres that the club would not grant him a contract extension beyond the 2000 season by stating “We are in a world of pain financially, things aren’t travelling all that well … we are not really in a position to extend any contracts”.[10] Cook then later oversaw a complete overhaul of the once-struggling club's finances in his tenure, as well as being a key supporter of former senior coach Mark Thompson along with club president Frank Costa"

Brian Cook (football administrator) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

He is in prime position to understand what the underlying issues are at the club, rather than supporters and the media just speculating. If there is a growing divide between the senior coach and players and/or assistant coaches, that is something he would no doubt act on in his position at the club - and I have zero doubt that he would have any hesitation in conveying these to the Board if these issues are evident and affecting the playing group and performance....as well as giving advice on what steps should or shouldn't be taken in the short and medium term.

My opinion is that there will be no change in the immediate future despite our dismal form of late. What we don't need right now is even more instability and change for possible short term 'success' - whatever than means. However, Voss' tenure at the club will be constantly assessed internally dependent on whether he is meeting the KPI's they have determined - which include key criteria such as leadership, player relationships, and on field performance. Same goes with the assistants.

And the Board will have no hesitation in the medium term of moving Voss and/or anyone else on if these haven't been met.

Also the 'honeymoon period' is over with minimal changes to the playing list. That ends now.
 
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4flagsin5yrs said:
Garbage.

We 'should' beat WB and STK every weekend of the year.

We are playing sub (senior AFL) standard football - that's on us, not on the opposition.
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Did you not see how garbage how our goal kicking was against both teams?

I wish I could draw a straight line between JSoS missing from the goal square to Voss.
 
kreuze_missile said:
There's clearly a pattern of behavior here.. we're terrible at appointing senior coaches.. but doubling down our most recent poor choice isn't the answer.

So many things to fix before we even consider hiring another coach. Ultimately that decision should be made by Brad Lloyd's replacement.

What I can say with confidence is that sacking Voss would lead to an improvement in on-field performance this season. There's nothing to be gained by letting this continue.
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In your opinion!
 
Beyond Blue said:
Genuine question (not trying to spark a war of words):

…if Malthouse was given the keys to the rebuild and backed in with a new 5 year contract in 2014, do you think we would still be without a finals appearance 9 years later?

Question is open to everyone to comment on of course?
Click to expand...

I think we would've but people seemed to think that MM "ruined" our list somehow.
 

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Coach Michael Voss

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