We have 7 games left against bottom 8 teams.
Can’t see us beating Sydney in Sydney, Freo in Freo and Gold Coast twice. Leaves 3 wins. Just as likely as not likely at this stage.
Coach Michael Voss
- Thread starter Aphrodite
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We have 7 games left against bottom 8 teams.
Can’t see us beating Sydney in Sydney, Freo in Freo and Gold Coast twice. Leaves 3 wins. Just as likely as not likely at this stage.
- Sep 9, 2015
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- Carlton
If we keep going backwards....I would chase Don Pyke to be the Senior Assistant.
And then you know what happens after that....
And then you know what happens after that....
We'll beat Sydney by 10 goals. They're not competitive.
l don't see winning many games until we start scoring more heavily, this has been a massive problem all season, until we can get more players that can hit the scoreboard 8-9 wins is probably going to be it.
Elmer_Hauser
Future Member of Parliament
No thanks. Don is damaged goods.
I greatly favour another big list cleanout and let Voss have significant input in the type of players/kids he wants to draft and develop at the club.
Our midfield for one thing is way overrated, slow and only runs one way (plus they keep butchering the ball into our forward 50)
Going backwards to go forwards is the most sensible way for this club if we ever want to challenge for a flag again.
In the past I’ve been fairly out on Teague, Bolton (despite believing his overall tenure was a good one, a good transitional/rebuild coach but not the next level coach), MM and was even on board with Ratten – albeit begrudgingly, I could see the thought behind it though didn’t find it overly tasteful. I’ve since learned that moving on the coach doesn’t solve all issues so instead of being out on Voss as quickly I’ll just put forward the things that cause me concern. I’ll categorise them then put them in spoilers as otherwise the post will be… ah… long.
Playing favourites
Selection policy
Strategies with selected team
Banal press conferences
Who has actually improved under Voss?
Long term gameplan flaws not being fixed
Sorry for the long post but instead of just saying Voss out I thought I’d give my concerns. Perhaps that’ll be solved with some new assistants helping him out, I feel like he definitely needs some assistance in the strategy side of things. Perhaps if we had some elite assistants in that area we’d be right. The other side to that, though, is he needs to be open to that and giving up some control. It’s all well and good to say “get some good assistants in” but if he’s not as accessible to their contributions then it’s for naught. I’m not sure what the issue is overall but those are my concerns on Vossy at this point.
Playing favourites
He does seem to play favourites and have somewhat an “in” group. It was clear last yr that Setters and Dow were out from very early on, yet O’Brien, Boyd and Cotts are very “in”. Not to say I don’t like those I’ve classified as “In”, I think Cotts is a good role player and Boyd has something about him I like. However, you can’t suggest they’ve been treated equally. Boyd and Cotts were very quickly brought back into the 1s after not really warranting it by form in the 2s. Boyd in particular seems to have been parachuted in very quickly after ehh form in the VFL. Meanwhile Dow has been racking up stats for weeks and weeks and isn’t close. I get the messaging that Dow has things to work on or there’s competition for spots in the 1s etc. Sure. But you can’t then tell me that Boyd was held to the same standard.
Selection policy
His selection policy is very conservative and he’s stuck to his desired.. template? For lack of better word. Big, contested midfield with not a lot of running capacity, 2 tall forwards with the 3 small forwards. Clearly leaning towards experience and older players as opposed to youth. There’s been little suggestion at the selection table that he’s been open to changing strategies or alleviating known issues through this avenue.
Strategies with selected team
Further to selection policies is just flat out weird strategies with said team. Playing Kennedy at half back, who thought that would work? Persevering with Setters on a wing when everyone could see plain as day he wasn’t a wing. Paying Hewett and Curnow as subs? Rubbish players to come on as sub, they’re not the impact types you hope for when subbing in. Curnow still being a walk up 22 starter too is poor, as much as we all personally love the guy he’s past it and shouldn’t be in the 22 bar specific roles or injury cover. Still playing SOS as 2nd ruck when that experiment stopped working before he even got to the club. Playing Cripps in the ruck last season.
Banal press conferences
His saying nothing in press conferences has been grating. Getting beaten time and again to a similar formula and all he comes out with is rubbish like “It looked more like a Carlton game at times so we’re pleased with that”. Bore off with that mate, no one is buying it. One reason I wanted Voss was his aggressive, competitive nature. I wanted him to come out strong in press conference when it was needed. Instead we’ve got this boring platitude soundboard speaking in cliché’s yet again. It feels very un-Voss like.
Who has actually improved under Voss?
The big one for me, take out that first 10 weeks or so, how do we really look? Pretty poor. Aside from that first 10 weeks, who has actually improved under Voss? And who has looked worse? Cripps won the B-Low, excellent, however how many votes were in the first 10 games and how many would he have in the games since? Aside from a couple of big games very late in the season he’s been pretty average. Kennedy flew out the blocks last yr, has been a shell of that since. Hewett looked like the find of the year last yr then faded and hasn’t been seen since. Harry has looked increasingly lost since Voss took over. Who knows what has happened to Weiters. A few periphery types have been better, Cotts for example, but of the real match winners, to me they’ve all gone backwards.
The exception is of course Charlie, however, to me it almost feels as though he’s kicking goals in spite of how things are going. Really, what method by which do we get him the ball and he kicks goals? He gets so many free because defenders absolutely panic as he’s such a freak. That’s not method, that’s just a freak of a player. Aside from him no one looks likely inside 50. Owies too looks good. He’s SF size but plays like a lead up marking target so it’s a bit of an antiquated role but it works for him.
The exception is of course Charlie, however, to me it almost feels as though he’s kicking goals in spite of how things are going. Really, what method by which do we get him the ball and he kicks goals? He gets so many free because defenders absolutely panic as he’s such a freak. That’s not method, that’s just a freak of a player. Aside from him no one looks likely inside 50. Owies too looks good. He’s SF size but plays like a lead up marking target so it’s a bit of an antiquated role but it works for him.
Long term gameplan flaws not being fixed
The other is clear issues not being fixed or even looking like being fixed. Transition, ball movement and run has been an issue since day 1 under V, however it wasn’t as big an issue as our contested ball and clearance game were so good it didn’t matter. Now that’s come back to the mean a bit the other issues are more glaring. We still haven’t fixed any of those and we still select the same midfield group and go forward with the same method that has never worked. If our contest work isn’t overwhelming then everything else is, well, poor basically.
To the point, no less, of an opposition player admitting publicly he was laughing at us continuing the same approach when it was so obviously not working. Not for the first time I'm sure.
To the point, no less, of an opposition player admitting publicly he was laughing at us continuing the same approach when it was so obviously not working. Not for the first time I'm sure.
Sorry for the long post but instead of just saying Voss out I thought I’d give my concerns. Perhaps that’ll be solved with some new assistants helping him out, I feel like he definitely needs some assistance in the strategy side of things. Perhaps if we had some elite assistants in that area we’d be right. The other side to that, though, is he needs to be open to that and giving up some control. It’s all well and good to say “get some good assistants in” but if he’s not as accessible to their contributions then it’s for naught. I’m not sure what the issue is overall but those are my concerns on Vossy at this point.
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This. Voss looks lost for sure, but its also the players.
We are so far off it currently its not funny. You watch other teams that are competing for spots in even the lower half of the 8 and its like a different sport. Watched most of Tiges v Essendon Saturday night, I reckon every 2 mins or so I noticed something that we're just incapable of doing. A string of handballs under pressure that hit the mark, being able to see a player in space in the corridor and executing a kick to him, finding a small pocket of space in the other teams defensive zone or leading to create that... the list goes on. Our players are completely incapable of even the basic building blocks of the modern game.
As to why, yep I reckon you're right, a good deal of it above the shoulders. How last year finished has killed them mentally imo, not sure I've ever seen a less confident team
4flagsin5yrs
Premiership Player
Garbage.
We 'should' beat WB and STK every weekend of the year.
We are playing sub (senior AFL) standard football - that's on us, not on the opposition.
It's arrogant to think it's OK to vent and not expect others to call out when a lack of balance is being displayed.
It's rude to post ill-considered vents about our club and its key people online in a public forum, with little to no knowledge of what's really going on.
It's wrong to just dismiss the direct words of the coach from his press conference yesterday - he knows things are wrong and will get to work fixing them with the club leadership.
IMO, supporters should support, not smash the club. Give our people time to work through the issues. They are all putting in effort, that's undeniable. They just need to redirect the effort to more effective actions.
- Apr 4, 2018
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In our case it definitely appears to be poor choices. However, who else apart from Voss applied for the job? Clarko said no and RTB didnt wat to go through the process. Voss was last man standing. Its interesting that the filth didnt interview Voss.
Not According to the bookies they pretty much have this game line ball
Sonny Jim
Team Captain
- Jul 28, 2021
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Football boss overseeing a second coaching disaster, surrounding a head coach with poor assistance with a lack of accountability.
It's his job to put the right people in the right positions.
Diesel is supposed to guide the way they all operate and deliver an effective structure and method of play. Losses aside, I wouldn't call our method of play effective.
Voss directs the coaches and players and is the main conduit between department heads and players. I actually don't think Voss is doing a 'bad' job, he's certainly trusting his assistants and his players even though mistakes are made constantly, but it's evident that whatever our department heads and coaches are trying to deliver is lost on these players.
Either we move on these players (that we know can play well) or we change the strategy and how the messaging is delivered.
Every game I watch these days is disappointing to me because I don't see players doing fundamentals of footy - like creating space for teammates, running with teammates for support, shepherding, sticking tackles, leading forwards, stab passes, directing players with passes, marking with hands out infront, crumbling from infront of a pack or marking contest, killing opposition shots with a spoil out of bounds or through the goals, look where we are kicking when kicking into F50.
I can keep listing more all day long.
These players are being told that these things are not a big deal and it is WRONG.
That is bad coaching, and a fundamental error in direction of the playing group, coaching and football department.
This is the reason that every other AFL team knows that if they do these things against us on match day they will dominate us - even the shit teams.
Our president said last year - we are coming for the finals. Our football department said - follow us, we'll deliver. Our coaches said last year - this is the fundamental way we play EVERY SINGLE GAME.
But this year, everyone is scratching their head saying "shit, that's not quite right, thought we were a bit better". It doesn't just 'happen' - everyone has to put in and make it happen.
I watch these games and I see players running their asses off, but I don't see fundamentals being executed. I believe the players are trying, but the direction is lacking. Is that coaching directly? Probably. Are the coaches being accountable? Voss is putting his hand up, not sure anyone else is. Who holds them accountable and ensures the do their job and enforced the application of these fundamentals? It's Lloyd and Diesel.
Diesel has been here one year only, but it is becoming a common theme under Lloyds direction at Carlton for under performance of the football department.
4flagsin5yrs
Premiership Player
This.
Garbage? Your response highlights the problem. Utterly unfounded expectations.
On what at basis can any supporter justify "expecting" us to beat, based on our own recent form:
1. the form team of the comp who were on top of the ladder at the time (Saints)
2. a recent premiership team with a highly talented list who can take it up to any opponent in the comp (Dogs)
- Apr 4, 2018
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From what I can see the fans are going to the games in droves. We've been waiting patiently for a rebuild 8 years in.
How much more time is needed to see some sort of progress?
Since Voss came in we've gradually been going backwards. And now appear to be in no mans land with players looking confused. Meanwhile Mcrae has turned filth into a genuine flag contender. It is so clear that he is having a major impact and Voss and assistants arent.
Will we hear the famous words "has the full backing of the board"?
Elmer_Hauser
Future Member of Parliament
Why do the 'conditional coach killing' players always get a pass from these type of performances over the years.
And no, I don't believe at all we have a better list than St Kilda and the Bulldogs. Its borderline delusional to believe that.
When was the last time we pulled off an upset win? I honestly can't remember.
Nothing will empower this team of coach-killers more than sacking another head coach.
You will get your immediate uplift in performance, and be right back here 18 months later calling for the head of the new coach.
It can't be the answer - we've tried it so many times before. We followed a process to select a senior coach for the post-rebuid phase - we have our guy - support him and build competency around him.
Yeah the directive has to be to draft or trade for players who have some leg speed and can kick. 2 absolutely massive deficiencies.
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i agree mostly with what you've said but at the end of the day it's a club owned literally and as a concept by fans and members with the administration the stewards of that.
something is clearly wrong and i blame the players more than the coaches or admin, as some of them have been around for long enough to be the constant in this era of mediocrity
there's always some miserable pricks out there but if things aren't going well the only recourse fans and members have is to protest publicly or try to force a board spill - something we really don't need right now.
Elmer_Hauser
Future Member of Parliament
We have had this exact same problem for 10 plus years, we sorely need to find Noah Anderson types in this draft and beyond.
4flagsin5yrs
Premiership Player
Yes, garbage.
Our failure to play anywhere near the level of 2022, when we have even upgraded certain players.....
Cripps, Weitering, Harry, Hewett - would struggle to get a game in the West Coat team presently on form.
No one is disputing RTB had the Saints buzzing pretty well.
The issue is why Voss has our lot playing like stoned teenagers....
Expectations have not been met. Not even close.
Unfounded? Sure, we missed finals but should have beaten both the Dees and the Pies in those last 2 weeks.
We played some bloody good footy eg 8 goals in Q3 against the Pies.
This year? We have not played close to that level once. Miles from it.
And it is entirely reasonable to expect that level on an ongoing basis from a professional, well funded Club with exceptional facilities at its disposal.
