Mick Malthouse and his coaching record

[Nathan Q Brown]

24.10.154 > 13.11.89

17.14.116 > 8.14.62

:d

my humble apologies - in addition to 3 season finishes at an impressive 14-11-6 - the master coach Clarko has defeated the 6th place time twice in 2008. Huge effort - undersold him!

actually he is a good developing coach with an unfortunate tendency to turn into a total pig and lash out at people when he loses ( kinda like you Johnno?)

 

[JohnD]

my humble apologies - in addition to 3 season finishes at an impressive 14-11-6 - the master coach Clarko has absolutely towelled-up the 6th place team, who apparently missed the flag by a kick the year previous, twice in 2008 by ten goals each time, making their gameplan and depth of talent none-existent. Huge effort - undersold him![/b]

Finally, you're seeing things for what they are.

actually he is a good developing coach with an unfortunate tendency to turn into a total pig and lash out at people when he loses ( kinda like you Johnno?)

LOL, you're struggling badly.

He took over a side at the depths of dispair. He immediately gave some respected club servants their marching orders and set about building a list that could challenge. His ruthless efficiency left a very raw but talented list in the deep end in 2005. They finished 14th in his first year, but he got significant game time into future champions. Season 2006 saw more of the same. Out with the old, in with the new, adherence to structure and discipline. Season 2007 saw the early investment begin to show dividend. From the outset, Clarkson has developed his side with a plan in mind. He's drafted and traded in order to address identified deficiencies, let go of decent players who he believes won't crack the next level, and placed significant emphasis on leadership within the group.

How's that stack up against Malthouse, who despite every advantage the AFL could possibly deliver continues to struggle in key success-defining areas. Compare that with Malthouse who has proven he has no capacity to affect the behavioural fortunes of his player group, no capacity to plan for or develop a leadership culture, and no ability to strategically address the list's deficiencies despite being in a position to succeed only to be thwarted by those very deficiencies.

But oh no, you want to continue to pedal the line that Hawthorn's is achieving nothing. Sure, that's fine. Here's a little reading to comfort you in your denial:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24368103-2722,00.html

 

[HighettBomber]

It hurts to say this because I can't stand Collingwood, but I think Mick Malthouse is the best coach in the AFL. His lack of Premierships with them is more a result of continued outperformance compared to the quality of their list. Collingwood would absolutley crazy to get rid of him.

 

[JohnD]

It hurts to say this because I can't stand Collingwood, but I think Mick Malthouse is the best coach in the AFL. His lack of Premierships with them is more a result of continued outperformance compared to the quality of their list. Collingwood would absolutley crazy to get rid of him.

wink wink

I see what you've done there HB.

Yep, I agree, Collingwood deserves to sign Malthouse to a ten year deal.

 

[FuManchu]

agreed, he is there to win a flag but equally in the NEW era of equalisation that is not always possible. in this day and age, you have to be right in the thick of things and then get a touch of luck.

You make your own luck, malthouse neglected several important on field areas, he created his own bad luck

an ounce of luck and you are 2002 and 2007 premiers - which given where you were in 1999 before he took over counts for something.

I would rather rely on good coaching and good list management and good game plan, than good luck.

here's the problem with this fantasy that the matchup with geelong are irrelevant. it ignores the fact that you were in the prelim to begin with!!!!!

We have been to that stage 3 times and still not got the chocolates. Sorry, there comes a time when second or third best wont cut it any more. He is yesterdays man with yesterdays plan

how many options do you think had against St Kilda. you have an average list missing 4 or 5 first team players.

The game plan, the years of neglect in the ruck division, the years of neglect in developing a fast paced midfield, the recent neglect or lack of realisation our backline will be decimated, had nothing to do with it, let alone a flawed game plan and a lack of response to on field issues?????????

Our options should have started 9 years ago, all we are now left is a team that is inconsistant, good at times, but never good enough to take the chocolates. I hate reruns and malthouse's coaching and outcomes are a litany of reruns

1. again you ignore the era of equalisation

Since Malthouse took over, 6 teams have seemed to deal with equalisation quite capably

2. you have had many flags in 50 years?

And his job is to add to them, he hasnt. NEXT!!!

it might be inconvenient to acknowlege this, but ignoring these facts won't make them go away.

Ignore the facts!!!!! Thats all I can see, is the facts.

 

[JohnD]

btw - when Clarkson actually achieves ONE thing then feel free to use him as an example in your essays

Perhaps you'd care to clear-up what constitutes "achieves".

Does a nine goal Prelim win and a Grand Final appearance count ?

Has Clarkson achieved anything yet ?

 

[Rohan25]

Perhaps you'd care to clear-up what constitutes "achieves".

Does a nine goal Prelim win and a Grand Final appearance count ?

Has Clarkson achieved anything yet ?

I think he has. However Malthouse has 2 preliminary final wins at Collingwood to his name, and yet people in this thread are saying he has only failed. Usually people on Bigfooty will say that "Success = premierships", and leave it at that. I don't think it's quite that simple.

If Clarkson's Hawks win next week then they have undeniably achieved the pinnacle of football. If they lose, have they achieved nothing? Of course not. But by the same token, I don't think Malthouse's time at Collingwood can be deemed a total failure either.

In other words, you can't say that by making a Grand Final Clarkson has now achieved a great deal at Hawthorn, but Malthouse hasn't at Collingwood.

 

[JohnD]

It's an interesting question, isn't it Rohan ?

I suppose it depends on expectation more than anything.

Did Ross Lyon achieve anything this year ?
Did Mick Malthouse achieve anything this year ?
Did Rodney Eade achieve anything this year ?

I'd say Eade certainly did, but only because of the massive rise the Dogs made from 2007 to 2008.

How about Clarkson ? I'm not sure it took many at the club by surprise, but I reckon he might have surprised a few with his side's rapid development.

What about Malthouse ? He's gone backwards, again, from a competative 2007. You're right about making two Grand Finals Rohan. I remember them, 2003 wasn't it ?

Hopefully macpie will be along presently to clear it all up for us

 

[JoondalupJ]

He has now been at Collingwood for 9 years and has taken them to 5 finals series. They have made the finals in their past 3 seasons but have only finished top 4 three times in his time there (Two obviously being 2002/2003). I haven't seen his win/loss record in a while but I know it is slightly above 50%.

Does Collingwood need him to move on? Yeh, they have a good group of kids. But this year was meant to be another step forward after last year's good showing, yet they lost several games against teams lower on the ladder which effectively cost them top 5.

Thoughts?

Malthouse has been OK for Collingwood. My dud when it comes to coaches is Neil Craig at the Crows, the most over rated under acheived coach in the AFL.

 

[JohnD]

Malthouse has been OK for Collingwood. My dud when it comes to coaches is Neil Craig at the Crows, the most over rated under acheived coach in the AFL.

Yeah naah.

In Round 20, Neil Craig had every chance at a 4th place finish to the H&A. Plenty had them pegged for a bottom 4 finish, don't forget.

I reckon you can probably pretty accurately assess coaches in accordance with certain criteria:

(in no particular order of importance or priority)

• Ladder position
• Overall record
• Drafting / recruiting
• Gameplan
• Player development
• Matchday coaching
• Group discipline
• Leadership development

 

[JohnD]

clarko 14-11-6 mind blowing

14-11-6-1

or

14-11-6-2

If you plot the trend of either record, I'd say "meteoric" would be a better description.

Regardless of Saturday's outcome, are you prepared to say whether Clarkson has achieved anything yet ?

If not, perhaps you will simply continue to slink away from your ridiculous statements when they inevitably expose you as a very poor judge on football matters.

 

[Nathan Q Brown]

14-11-6-1

or

14-11-6-2

If you plot the trend of either record, I'd say "meteoric" would be a better description.

Regardless of Saturday's outcome, are you prepared to say whether Clarkson has achieved anything yet ?

If not, perhaps you will simply continue to slink away from your ridiculous statements when they inevitably expose you as a very poor judge on football matters.

if he wins definitely- if he fails NO as you and others have pointed out with MM - not good enough especially if you dive next year

 

[JohnD]

if he wins definitely- if he fails NO as you and others have pointed out with MM - not good enough especially if you dive next year

See, all it took was a little shove. Don't blame your for avoid this thread like the plague though, 'cos your choices were:

1. Defeat your own argument.
2. Be a hypocrit.

Your argument, in summary:

1. Clarkson [complete with good record in terms of leadership development, gameplan, recruiting, list development, matchday coaching] can't be compared with the Malthouse record at Collingwood, 'cos at 14-11-6 Clarkson hasn't achieved a single thing.

(Of course that implies that Malthouse reaching grand finals is an achievement.)

2. Clarkson, having reached a grand final, hasn't achieved anything.

Congratulations. You chose to defeat your own argument.

 

[Canyouhearthedrums]

My take is this:

I think Malthouse is lucky to have remained in the job this long given his results. Sure there were 2 GFs, but only one was close and that was 2 years ago now. As many people have pointed out, there aren't any other coaches who have continued job security after 9 years and zero flags.

However, if he was going to get the ass, the time to do it was a couple of years ago, just before the draft when the Pies had picks 2 and 5, to allow a new coach to build his own list a la Hawthorn.

But the trigger wasn't pulled then, and it shouldn't be now, because this is MM's list and whose to say that a new coach with new ideas is going to get the same amount out of it. Quite frankly, I think the Pies have overachieved in the past couple of years given the playing group, so Mick deserves some credit for that.

This current list has shown a bit and MM deserves another couple of years to take it forward. The obvious corollary is that if the Pies aren't close to a flag within the next couple, MM should be moved on and quickly.

 

[Canyouhearthedrums]

I think he has. However Malthouse has 2 preliminary final wins at Collingwood to his name, and yet people in this thread are saying he has only failed. Usually people on Bigfooty will say that "Success = premierships", and leave it at that. I don't think it's quite that simple.

If Clarkson's Hawks win next week then they have undeniably achieved the pinnacle of football. If they lose, have they achieved nothing? Of course not. But by the same token, I don't think Malthouse's time at Collingwood can be deemed a total failure either.

In other words, you can't say that by making a Grand Final Clarkson has now achieved a great deal at Hawthorn, but Malthouse hasn't at Collingwood.

I don't think that comparison is right. The Hawks are at the start of their journey and I'll quite happily call Clarkson's reign a failure if they only make to GFs and then fall.

 

[wegs on pendles]

My take is this:

I think Malthouse is lucky to have remained in the job this long given his results. Sure there were 2 GFs, but only one was close and that was 2 years ago now. As many people have pointed out, there aren't any other coaches who have continued job security after 9 years and zero flags.

However, if he was going to get the ass, the time to do it was a couple of years ago, just before the draft when the Pies had picks 2 and 5, to allow a new coach to build his own list a la Hawthorn.

But the trigger wasn't pulled then, and it shouldn't be now, because this is MM's list and whose to say that a new coach with new ideas is going to get the same amount out of it. Quite frankly, I think the Pies have overachieved in the past couple of years given the playing group, so Mick deserves some credit for that.

This current list has shown a bit and MM deserves another couple of years to take it forward. The obvious corollary is that if the Pies aren't close to a flag within the next couple, MM should be moved on and quickly.

Gee it shows you support Carlton and also that you know your history S4B

 

[Canyouhearthedrums]

Gee it shows you support Carlton and also that you know your history S4B

haha, fair point, I was thinking about 2002 and the 2s just took over...more like 6 years ago.

The point I was trying to make about the GFs was that, from my perspective anyway, the Pies were probably a bit lucky to be there in the the second.

Are there many Pies fans who would honestly call the last 9 years a success on the back of those two games alone?

 

[wegs on pendles]

haha, fair point, I was thinking about 2002 and the 2s just took over...more like 6 years ago.

The point I was trying to make about the GFs was that, from my perspective anyway, the Pies were probably a bit lucky to be there in the the second.

Are there many Pies fans who would honestly call the last 9 years a success on the back of those two games alone?

LUCKY, We were favourites to beat the bears that game, Gee your bad.
yes i would call the last nine years a success not a huge one but not a minor one, but still a success

 

[Canyouhearthedrums]

I quite clearly said lucky to be there being the recipient of an epic Port Adelaide preliminary final choke job. There was also about one game seperating 2nd to 5th if I recall corerctly, and one game back to 6-8th so the whole thing was a fair lottery.

And if you were favourites to win that game, I'd say it reflects even more poorly on MM

Anyhoo, the point I was trying to get across was that those GF teams didn't lead anywhere - no flags and then a nose dive the following year. I don't really class that as a tick for MM.

 

[MarkT]

Regardless of Saturday's outcome, are you prepared to say whether Clarkson has achieved anything yet ?

My 2 bob's:

What do you call “anything”? He’s achieved a bit but in the context of his job, if they lose his test comes next year. If Hawthorn win then all credit to him. If we are making comparisons to Malthouse though then he is miles behind. Ignoring premierships at another club Malthouse got Collingwood to 2 GF’s pretty quickly from last and I frankly reckon he has failed at Collingwood. Not so much because he lost those games, although I have sympathy for the view that that is enough to say he failed, but because he did bugger all to address why and come back and win one. He will say he did and point to all sorts of failed list improvements but the results say he didn’t and the current deficiencies scream it.

At this point, though, Clarkson has to back up next year to even get on the same page.

 

[MarkT]

With sixteen teams in the competition, thats above average.

How many years have Wallace and Eade coached for one GF appearance alone between them?

When we interview our next coach hope we aim for a lot more above average than Malthouse’s record. 15 years without a flag and a 50% record at Collingwood is a million miles from the benchmark.

I don’t really care about comparisons with other failed coach’s. The comparisons should be against the best not the mediocre.

 

[JohnD]

My 2 bob's:

What do you call “anything”? He’s achieved a bit but in the context of his job, if they lose his test comes next year. If Hawthorn win then all credit to him. If we are making comparisons to Malthouse though then he is miles behind. Ignoring premierships at another club Malthouse got Collingwood to 2 GF’s pretty quickly from last and I frankly reckon he has failed at Collingwood. Not so much because he lost those games, although I have sympathy for the view that that is enough to say he failed, but because he did bugger all to address why and come back and win one. He will say he did and point to all sorts of failed list improvements but the results say he didn’t and the current deficiencies scream it.

At this point, though, Clarkson has to back up next year to even get on the same page.

That's an interesting take on it Mark. Appreciate your usual considered view.

To summarise:
Clarkson way behind Malthouse.
Malthouse has failed at Collingwood.

Be that as it may, if both coaches were out of contract tomorrow and you were acting Eddie for a week, who would you sign ?

 

[JohnD]

when Clarkson actually achieves ONE thing then feel free to use him as an example in your essays

What do you reckon ?

Suppose we can finally put the old "Clarkson hasn't achieved anything" diversion to bed for good now, eh ?

Suppose you'd now be happy to admit he might have achieved something ?

Happy that we can use Clarkson as a comparison when discussing Malthouse's record ?

 

[Nathan Q Brown]

What do you reckon ?

Suppose we can finally put the old "Clarkson hasn't achieved anything" diversion to bed for good now, eh ?

Suppose you'd now be happy to admit he might have achieved something ?

Happy that we can use Clarkson as a comparison when discussing Malthouse's record ?

LOL - this melon copped a ban hours before his team were premiers. It was lifted today and ten minutes after he comes back he tries to troll the cats board and cops another. i think people are finally on to him - not before time

 

[Phil McCavity]

As I have read on here before, 14 straight seasons and no premiership isn't something to rave on about