They turned into a pack of plodders before Mick began coaching them though.
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AFLW 2024 - Round 6 - Chat, game threads, injury lists, team lineups and more.
Opinion Mick Malthouse
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- Sep 26, 2012
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They were plodders when they were drafted.
Yep, Sellars was a part of the era/Carlton where sack the coach worked but it doesn't any more. If clubs folded to the media every time a team went to shit then Malthouse would have never coached Collingwood to the 2010 premiership and Mark Thompson would have never coached Geelong to a flag. They even wanted Alistair Clarkson's head after the Hawks failed for a while after 2008. People have short memories. Even we sacked Parkin before bringing him back and having him win flags.
Where we went wrong was when Ratten announced we were ready for the top 4, we weren't, we were a long way off even though a 5 place finish suggests otherwise. Everything went right and it had us all bluffed and believing it. Little did we know we peaked and would come crashing down rather than continuing to grow. We need to come out and put this to bed, people still believe we should be on the up and can't see reasons past the coach of our demise.
This is where our president needs to stand up and put an end to it and shut them all up. People need to be told that we are rebuilding though they wont want to say it. LoGiudice has jumped straight into the fire, he needs to sign Malthouse up ahead of schedule or at least hold a conference stating that that is what they are going to do. They need to come forward with a plan to the fans that correlates with where we are at.
There are ways to shut the media up, one is to start winning and prove them wrong and that will happen but not soon. We can rub Robinson, Ralph and Sellars noses in it when it does, that will be good.
Sellars has been hanging around with the Herald Sun/Fox crew a bit to long. Mark Robinson and John Ralph. Sellars, Robinson and Ralph need to realise that there is no issue here at all and the only reason it is an issue is because of them! People are looking to get a hold of Malthouse, if he sneezes then he's abused someone!
In hindsight we had 2 shock losses to GC and Port, young sides on the up. We also had a boat load of injuries to cope with. This year we haven't had a bad loss because they have become so predictable its actually a shock when we get up to win. Something has to be wrong when you can challenge a side like Geelong and 5mins after that game think "GWS next week, certain loss coming"
No one could with any degree of sanity declare MM has improved this list, he has taken it backwards.
gab213
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You can't rationally make the argument that Malthouse is coaching the same side in 2014 that Ratten was in 2011.
- Sep 26, 2012
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I don't think people are saying Mick has improved the list. But IMO things outside of his control have taken it backwards. Age, injuries, poor recruiting, poor development etc have all combined into a perfect storm.
- Sep 26, 2012
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You can if time stands still and players don't age or get injuries and you never have to feel the pain of incompetent drafting/development over 3 or 4 years.
Mick must have taken the garlic out of Princes Park, vampires have got in and making our players play bad!
Ratten coached a winning side = Ratten was good (Just ignore all of 2012, the state of our list and how it's been left and how he had no idea that it was no good and thought it was good enough to challenge for the flag demonstrating that he had no idea).
Malthouse coaches a losing side = Malthouse is bad (Just ignore his years of success, ability to rebuild and win flags and the fact he improved on Ratten's effort last year and also ignore the state of the list ages of players and who is injured/unfit/retired, also ignore the draft picks that should be coming into their prime now that we failed to draft).
Just on this type of logic, I am selling tiger repelling rocks, I have never seen a tiger or been attacked by one so I assume they work great.
Ratts is gone, nothing is to be gained by blaming him (and Hughesy) for all our current woes.
Even Mick thought back in March we had an 11pm top-4 side. I'm not prepared to give him a pass mark but at the same time he still has 2/5 to run on his 3 year contract.
Put the knives away, on both sides.
Even Mick thought back in March we had an 11pm top-4 side. I'm not prepared to give him a pass mark but at the same time he still has 2/5 to run on his 3 year contract.
Put the knives away, on both sides.
Anyway, I have explained what has gone wrong with the team, it is more Hughes than Ratten but both are to blame.
We drafted poorly and as we got better and had lower draft picks we started drafting no one. This began to effect us in 2012 and as such things are getting worse.
Ratten's list management was appalling. Kept hanging onto guys who couldn't play. Didn't trade the ones who he should have traded and traded draft picks and players we never should have traded. The only good trade Ratten did that hasn't come back to bite us in a big way was Henderson for Fevola and we still wasted the pick that came with that.
We have a few players in their prime, a lot past it, a lot of key players past it, a few raw kids and no players just coming into their prime. The gap in talent at Carlton is a problem.
Key players who were the main chargers under Ratten have got old or retired like Judd and Scotland. We have guys on their last legs who are really half the players they were.
We were never any good under Ratten. 2011 was a weak year of AFL footy. Finished ahead of St. Kilda, Sydney, Essendon and North to make 5th and failed to finish ahead of or beat West Coast who were one of the weakest top 4 teams you will see that season. All teams were either on the slide or having a down year that we finished ahead. Previous to this we were just scraping into finals and going out in the first round.
The fact Ratten rated us so highly just went to prove that he had no idea what he was doing. We were never that good under Ratten who played a crap game style that opened us up for the better sides to have a field day against. It was individualistic football reliant on a few stars to do all the work with a few filler players to pitch in. Ratten didn't believe in depth or being tall at either end.
Malthouse has arrived while the team was on the slide, I don't know how far it will slide but don't expect things to be much better next season either.
The senior coach is not the recruiter, he does not attend TAC cup games each week and declare who he thinks will become a future star. That is the fault of the recruiters themselves and those charged with hiring them not the head coach.
Ratten had his short comings but he could sure as hell motivate these players a lot better then MM ever can or will, I will give you scotland, Carazzo, Judd & Waite as players that can reasonably be expected to have gone backwards since MM's appointment and I will suggest only Levi, Buckley & perhaps Gibbs have improved as footballers in his time, the rest have mostly gone backwards for no real reason. For all the malthouse love he has coached 1 flag in the past 19 years no better then carlton's current record.
I don't think we are throwing blame at Ratten and Hughes but it is their fault, they were in charge of the ship when it has started thinking. They we the ones who built it poorly and not to last. You get a delusional fan who is blaming the current coach and you explain to them in detail exactly why things are going wrong and it all comes back to these guys.
Ratten was in charge of cutting players and trading players. We missed out on draft picks by not trading players like Thornton, Russell, Bower etc while they showed potential and had trade value. Thats how the good teams, particularly Sydney operate. They accidentally draft a player who is only half good, they trade him and try again. A good judge could easily see that these guys were never going to be much good, Ratten couldn't see it, kept them until they were cooked and they were delisted when no one wanted them. Malthouse cleaned out a lot of players who were clogging out list. Our seconds had too many older players running around. You aught to scroll a few pages back and see who we could have drafted with some of the picks we threw away for guys like Mclean! Even the Judd trade turned out bad, if we had have kept Kennedy and used those picks well we'd have 3 superstars instead of 1.
Our players are motivated bar a couple of sooks who we don't need with their attitude. Our boys are trying their guts out most weeks, you can see that! A couple of games they haven't when they have rocked up expecting to win but they are trying. They lack legs peed and skill severely and many are playing injured but they are trying.
You can add Betts to players who have gone too. So our best player, best and fairest, leading goal kicker and only real tall forward and key onballer from the Ratten era are gone or cooked. That's huge. Jamison has gone backwards too, his body looks cooked, been good the last few weeks but he's been outrun and unable to run off a lot of the year. Henderson playing out of position and unfit. Simpson has lost a few yards of pace in the last few seasons.
Casboutl, Buckley, Menzel, Gibbs, Robinson, Docherty, Bell, Rowe, Curnow, Everitt and White have all played better footy under Malthouse than under the coach who coached them previously. Henderson had his best season last year under Malthouse at CHB.
Most of the teams ahead of us on the ladder have a better group of players than we do, we've fallen behind in quality and been leapfrogged by a few.
Carlton will come good if Rogers is a decent recruiter. The kids that are brought up under Malthouse will be real goers. Already liking the look of a few already but they are all so raw.
Ellas Ellas
All Australian
Thornton was going to go in the preseason draft we would have got nothing for him. Bower had been injured for an eternity and would have been a delist. Russell played some very very good football for us but due to his illness dropped off, hardly Ratten's fault. He would have been worth nothing on the trade table and even when he did want to go to Port it was via the preseason draft. Let's not put things across to be something they are not in order to try and discredit Ratten. Trying to say he stuffed up getting Judd is just silly.
See here you note the improvement of our players, but then you turn around and say Malthouse has nothing to work with compared with Ratts. Do you not see the contradiction? You just sat there telling us poor Mick has got a sht team but then tell us all how thse blokes are playing better footy under Mick than under Ratts. So which one is it?
Thornton was chased by Hawthorn when he was still playing good enough footie for them to want him. In the end we got nothing for him because he fell out of favour with Ratten and was given no chance in his last few years which was the reason he ended up worthless. Ditto Russell who couldn't get a game after finishing 2nd in the B&F in a finals year.
Bower was chased (if I remember correctly) by Freo but we saw something in him that didn't come to fruition, always looked like a deer in the headlights to me. Another example of how we hung onto players for too long on just a pure basis of hope.
I agree that the Judd trade was far from a stuff up but if you want to look at monumental stuff ups at the trade table look no further than the Warnock trade. Despite having Kruezer (regarded by many as the best young ruck for years at the time), Hampson (who we all had very high hopes for) and Jacobs on the rookie list we traded pick 24 for Warnock. How many rucks does any team need?
Do yourself a favour and have a look at who was available at 24 in 2008, it'll make you cry. Heres a hint it includes players like Beams, Hanneberry, Shuey, Sloane, Motlop to name a few.
I don't see a contradiction in his post although it's not too fair on Ratts to include Menzel and Buckley as improvers under Mick.
Probably not that fair to include Everrit and Docherty either but these two are an example of what should have been happening in trade week during the Ratten era and just didn't. We sat on our hands for too long under the delusion that we had a premiership list and we're paying the price now because that list of 2011 was like a mature product in the market, will still sell some but has to be developed further in order to compete.
I don't want this to be a rant against Ratten as I loved the guy. He could have been, and still may be, a good coach but he wasn't what we needed at that point.
You and a couple of others, on the other hand have done nothing but rant at Mick since joining, might be just time to give it a rest.
Probably also time to give all the Ratten bashing a rest considering he's gone and not coming back.
I agree MEB but sometimes you're forced to compare in order to debate.
Ellas Ellas
All Australian
Thornton's second last year he played football as a forward and did very well, close to BOG in the Elimination final vs Essendon. Saying he was given no chance in his last few years is just wrong, close to BOG in a final says he was playing and well. He was still given chances in his last year but failed to perform. Regardless his value had dropped considerably by then. When Hawthorn wanted him it would've been via the preseason draft, we would have got nothing.
Russell went from world beater to not getting a game very quickly. There was possible way you could have traded him at the end of 2010, he was one of our best. By 2011 he wasn't getting a game because he was playing poorly. He then failed at Collingwood. Not sure what more you want from Ratts in that situation. Regardless, Russell had issues with a mental illness that was far beyond Ratts' control. TBH, Ratts made him the player he was he was certainly on a road to nowhere under Pagan.
Bower was injured for years, he wouldn't have got us a decent pick at all but happy to be proven wrong if you ant to show me an article showing Freo's interest when he did have value?
The contradiction is clear as day, he says the list Ratten had was far better than what Mick had but he then goes on to say all those players have played better footy under Mick than Ratts. So that would mean the list is better yeah? Or at minimum on par? It's not rocket science.
I haven't ranted against Mick at all, I've merely pointed out the inconsistencies in some people's argument. There are double standards being applied left right and centre. I don't think it matters anyway because Malthouse is a PR disaster for the club, if he keeps going on like this they will have no choice.
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![C4[2]Yo`DooR](https://www.bigfootycontent.com/avatars/m/21/21849.jpg?1724656646){kind=avatar}
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Being abrasive and cold towards the media is all when and good when you're winning games like Gregg Popovich.
Our list needs to play run and gun football.
A good coach always plays to the strength of his team, Malthouse tried to install a defensive mindset into our playing list which was never going to work, he finally conceded that he had to meet the players half way and allow them to play a game style which they are comfortable with and can use to better effect.
I do think Mick is the right guy to overhaul our list and allow us to re-build with a decent list for the future, but I agree with Sellers that he shouldn't be allowed to appoint his heir apparent.
Our list needs to play run and gun football.
A good coach always plays to the strength of his team, Malthouse tried to install a defensive mindset into our playing list which was never going to work, he finally conceded that he had to meet the players half way and allow them to play a game style which they are comfortable with and can use to better effect.
I do think Mick is the right guy to overhaul our list and allow us to re-build with a decent list for the future, but I agree with Sellers that he shouldn't be allowed to appoint his heir apparent.
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AndrewVadermk2
All Australian
Comparing is fine, it's the language that some people use (in regards to both Mick and Ratts) that makes me cringe
AndrewVadermk2
All Australian
mind you i agree but a good defensive , defensive game will win you premierships, sad but true, as i like the old saying the best defense is to attack but somehow that "G" disagrees
stupid G 
Moody Blue
Premiership Player
Under Ratten Carlton's midfielders ran one way and were unaccountable in defence. Under MM defence has become a priority. You don't win finals or GF's without a good defence. Our list is in transition. We need a key forward and a couple of speedy midfielders and key defender. Casboult is not a natural forward and does not have the instincts to know where to lead and he is slow and has the turning circle of the QE2. It is one thing beating up the St.Kilda kids when the ball is coming in non stop, and it is another thing to do it against quality teams, and this is when he goes missing. Added to that he is at his peak and still cannot kick. Keep him in the ruck and hopefully he will learn to drift into the backline and take marks. Henderson may have to go back into defence to shore it up and then focus on going after genuine forwards. After watching Thomas play it is safe to say he has lost whatever sparkle he once had. A solid contributor but not worth 700K. Now we are stuck with him for 3 more years. I respect Sellars but he has become a puppet of Slobbo.
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