Military spending by country (We are 13th) Worldwide

[Fire]

You dont understand the point. Its about geographical distance. People dont care about fighting going on halfway across the world. Most Americans/Europeans couldnt give two shits about Australia, and wouldn't if push came to shove.

That wasn't the point I highlighted.

I won;t claim to predict how the world would respond... they may well not. However, I think it would not be in their interests to allow a growing superpower to have unfettered access to Australia and the resources it would allow them. They would not stop with us, and they would know it.

If I were to have a guess, they would allow China to overrun us, but would come to liberate us fairly quickly. If this did't lead to WWIII, then China would start it on their terms, probably with the help of a resurgent Russia.

This is all massive speculation. My point was that our allies would have no difficulty in defending us on our own soil from the Chinese. The difficulty would lie in bringing the war to Beijing.

 

[acker]

I think Australia has to be prepared that things can in a very short space of time go to hell in a handbag in Indonesia.

And if that occurs we need to be able to defend or deter with our ability to defend our air-sea gap, most likely with submarines and fighter jet's.

Even Australian Infantry may have a role to play on the Irian Jayan / Papua New Guinea Border.

Lets remember we have Australian (Queensland) Soveriegn islands 4km off the Papua New Guinea Coast

 

[SolidTiger]

If a super power such as China invades Australia there would be a good chance that would lead to World War 3. If Australia is invaded then I can see the U.S and India getting very concerned. They will be concerned that China is expanding in increasing thier resources for more invasions.

Hitler invaded and took over a few countries before Britain and its allys stepped in. Hitler would have continued to invade countries if he was not stopped.

 

[Smell The Glove]

That wasn't the point I highlighted.

I won;t claim to predict how the world would respond... they may well not. However, I think it would not be in their interests to allow a growing superpower to have unfettered access to Australia and the resources it would allow them. They would not stop with us, and they would know it.

If I were to have a guess, they would allow China to overrun us, but would come to liberate us fairly quickly. If this did't lead to WWIII, then China would start it on their terms, probably with the help of a resurgent Russia.

This is all massive speculation. My point was that our allies would have no difficulty in defending us on our own soil from the Chinese. The difficulty would lie in bringing the war to Beijing.

Wars have been won and lost not on foreign soil but on home soil. Vietnam is the most perfect example in history. Without significant public backing, wars are doomed to fail, and that was my point. Physical distance plays a massive role in that. Thats largely why the US took so long hauling arse into WW2- it took Pearl Harbour for them to give a shit. We are an incredibly vulnerable nation because of our isolation and because we have no friends in Asia apart from the Japanese.

If we were attacked/invaded by the Chinese, one would things with the way the global order is changing the US simply would not have the resources to fight for us. They also have a war weary (and wary) public.

You mention resources. I specifically mentioned uranium. This is the SOLE reason any Western nation would fight for us. Even then its 50/50 IMO.

Global Chinese dominance is coming. Nothing can stop that now, or them.

 

[Inferno]

Why does China have to go through Indonesia. Why cant they go around?

Unless they caught us completely by surprise (which these days, let alone in 50 years would be impossible for a military operation on that scale) they would be fighting with no air force since it would be too easy for us to sick their carriers. Not to mention sailing troops from China to Australia would make hitting their ships a whole lot easier for us than from Indonesia/Papua New Guinea to Australia.

And the last time the world saw a totalitarian regime become a superpower it gobbled up half a continent. We are on the doorstep of this one with **** all in the numbers column.

Oh but they would go around everyone else! right? (I'm confused whether you think they will invade only Australia or many other countries now)

Pretty different cercumstances between the Soviets from 1939 to 1991 and China hypothetically waking up one day in the future and deciding it wants to invade Australia for minerals which they could probably get from invading neighbouring Kazakhstan and nearby Uzbekistan much more easily and cheaper anyway as well as not isolating themselves pollitically from the West and pissing off the Japs, South Koreans and Indians.

Global Chinese dominance is coming. Nothing can stop that now, or them.

No paranoia at all

 

[Invigoration]

The capabilities of the ADF are grossly understimated on this board. In terms of efficiency we would be in the top 5 country's, if not the most efficient.

China pose virtually zero threat to us, history has shown strength in numbers does not win wars. For the Chinese to get to Australia's waters would be suprising enough and for them to get past the Australian Army would be a miracle.

Indonesia is by far and away our biggest threat, but at the moment they simply do not have the technology and logistical power to even defend Australia from an invasion. If they get there act together, maybe in 20+ years they might be a threat but at the moment no.

As General Erwin Rommel once said "They're not British, they're Australians! Give me a division of these men and Ill conquer the world for you".

Wrong and wrong.

 

[bit_pattern]

Wrong and wrong.

Ayo for the yayo
All up in mu nasal
Ayo for yayo
must have been crazy

 

[Karl Pilkington]

We should build a buttload of nukes imo.

 

[Karl Pilkington]

I know your trolling, but if the need does arise Australia does have the capacity to build WMD reasonably quickly.

Trolling my ass. We can build them quicker than any other non-nuke country, but why spend so much money on our military when we could simply build like 5,000 nukes and stash them all across our deserts?

Who's messing with Australia in that scenario? Impossible to tell where we have them stashed, and we could fire them at anyone in Asia at the drop of a hat.

They're just weapons, and if other countries are going to ahve them, why shouldn't we? I really don't think anyone is a threat to us anyway, and the talk of China invading is laughable - but why not just build a few, just in case? China, India and Pakistan all have them - so lets get some just in case (bigger and better ones at that).

 

[thejester]

Trolling my ass. We can build them quicker than any other non-nuke country, but why spend so much money on our military when we could simply build like 5,000 nukes and stash them all across our deserts?

What evidence do you base this extraordinary comment on? Any country that has a functioning nuclear power industry could churn out nukes much faster than us. That also ignores the issue of delivery system; at the moment we'd rely on the RAAF, which means we could only use them for essentially tactical purposes. If you wanted them as a strategic deterrent you'd almost certainly have to invest in ICBM technology as well, itself a whole different kettle of fish.

 

[Spiritof82]

I think Australia has to be prepared that things can in a very short space of time go to hell in a handbag in Indonesia.

And if that occurs we need to be able to defend or deter with our ability to defend our air-sea gap, most likely with submarines and fighter jet's.

Even Australian Infantry may have a role to play on the Irian Jayan / Papua New Guinea Border.

Lets remember we have Australian (Queensland) Soveriegn islands 4km off the Papua New Guinea Coast

Is that the fighter jets that can only be flown out of Perth, Tindal or Darwin with a limited range, or the submarines that spend 90% of their time in Port Adelaide or Henderson dockyard in WA and have managed to sink two ships that were anchored at the time?

 

[thejester]

If we were attacked/invaded by the Chinese, one would things with the way the global order is changing the US simply would not have the resources to fight for us. They also have a war weary (and wary) public.

Even ignoring that it is literally impossible for the Chinese to invade, this is absolute rot. The US public being 'war weary' after Vietnam didn't stop them voting in Ronald 'Defence Spending' Reagan or making a string of interventions throughout South America and the Middle East, culminating in Desert Storm. China INVADING OTHER COUNTRIES would be an enormous international incident and would definitely lead to US intervention.

You mention resources. I specifically mentioned uranium. This is the SOLE reason any Western nation would fight for us. Even then its 50/50 IMO.

It is so far removed from the interest of any powerful country in the Asian region, from the US to India to Japan and the ROK, for China to be gobbling up other major economies whole that of course they'd intervene.

Global Chinese dominance is coming. Nothing can stop that now, or them.

No, it's not. China has a huge range of issues to confront from agitation for more civil control to enormous environmental problems and the coming effect of the global financial crisis. One could easily point out that as US power in the Asia-Pacific wanes, it's not just China that's emerging: both the ROK and Japan have been spending considerably more on their navies in recent years, and the push in Japan to end the 1% limit on defence spending is gather momentum. The JMSDF is already (arguably) the most powerful navy in the region behind the USN; even a modest expansion of force size could see it pose a huge threat to Chinese plans. Likewise as the the threat from the DPRK diminishes the ROK is free to use more of its budget to invest in a navy for similar reasons to Japan's. They've already commissioned some cruiser-size AEGIS ships and are looking at more.

Then there's India, which has (IIRC) begun building a new indigenous carrier (although plans to buy one from Russia appear to have all but fallen through) and already possesses a powerful air force. Put all of them together and you've got a string of strategically powerful middle powers ringing China at the moment, all of which are not predisposed to like China's foreign policy aims.

 

[Karl Pilkington]

What evidence do you base this extraordinary comment on? Any country that has a functioning nuclear power industry could churn out nukes much faster than us. That also ignores the issue of delivery system; at the moment we'd rely on the RAAF, which means we could only use them for essentially tactical purposes. If you wanted them as a strategic deterrent you'd almost certainly have to invest in ICBM technology as well, itself a whole different kettle of fish.

US military released a paper (I think it was CIA actually) a few years ago that was posted on this website - stated Japan and Australia could have nuclear weapons faster than any other non-nuke countries (I believe it was 3 months).

 

[BigBadCam]

Wars have been won and lost not on foreign soil but on home soil. Vietnam is the most perfect example in history. Without significant public backing, wars are doomed to fail, and that was my point. Physical distance plays a massive role in that. Thats largely why the US took so long hauling arse into WW2- it took Pearl Harbour for them to give a shit. We are an incredibly vulnerable nation because of our isolation and because we have no friends in Asia apart from the Japanese.

If we were attacked/invaded by the Chinese, one would things with the way the global order is changing the US simply would not have the resources to fight for us. They also have a war weary (and wary) public.

You mention resources. I specifically mentioned uranium. This is the SOLE reason any Western nation would fight for us. Even then its 50/50 IMO.

Global Chinese dominance is coming. Nothing can stop that now, or them.

I beg to differ. Our reputation and standing in our region is currently very good. Even though we have a very racist history and the whole 'British outpost on the edge of Asia' thing, we are a key player in regional economics, and play a huge role in maintaining stability. Our two largest trading partners are China and Japan, and our relationship with China is better than it has ever been in our 30ish year history of diplomatic relations with them. Asian nations generally are in massive need of our seemingly endless natural resources and primary produce, and we have been making the most of their cheaply manufactured goods for years. China would never ever invade Australia. Singapore, Indonesia, Malaysia and N.Korea are the only nations in our region who have issues with us.

If on the offchance we were invaded, the wave of international support would be endless. To suggest otherwise implies that you have little understanding of our foreign affairs. Also, I'm sorry, but to suggest that the Americans wouldn't come to our aid is one of the most stupid things I have ever read on this site.

 

[Ill Chicken]

I suppose Pine Gap is of no strategic importance for the USA.

Originally Posted by Invigoration
Wrong and wrong.

Nice rebuttal.

 

[Qsaint]

What evidence do you base this extraordinary comment on? Any country that has a functioning nuclear power industry could churn out nukes much faster than us. That also ignores the issue of delivery system; at the moment we'd rely on the RAAF, which means we could only use them for essentially tactical purposes. If you wanted them as a strategic deterrent you'd almost certainly have to invest in ICBM technology as well, itself a whole different kettle of fish.

WHat do you think ANSTO was founded for?

The original reactor, which was critical, and Australian scientest help developed the original British bombs. And continue to have the capability to develop the material required, and the capability to design one if they already have a Nuke they certainly would have plans to build one in a very quick time. Not all countries that have a nuclear reactors have the capability to create the material

Whilst Australia does not have an ICBM, the F111's replacement is a cruise missile attached to an FA 18. All frigates and the new destroyer can carry long range cruise missiles as well

 

[Qsaint]

The capabilities of the ADF are grossly understimated on this board. In terms of efficiency we would be in the top 5 country's, if not the most efficient.

China pose virtually zero threat to us, history has shown strength in numbers does not win wars. For the Chinese to get to Australia's waters would be suprising enough and for them to get past the Australian Army would be a miracle.

Indonesia is by far and away our biggest threat, but at the moment they simply do not have the technology and logistical power to even defend Australia from an invasion. If they get there act together, maybe in 20+ years they might be a threat but at the moment no.

As General Erwin Rommel once said "They're not British, they're Australians! Give me a division of these men and Ill conquer the world for you".

The future battle on the ground will be preceded by battle in the air. This will determine which of the contestants has to suffer operational and tactical disadvantages and be forced throughout the battle into adoption compromise solutions

Rommel said that and I'd add 10 Nuclear submarines would help to.


China is building a blue water Navy. The only way of stopping them is airpower and advanced Subs. If the got here we would be stuffed.

Your Rommel quotes was actually about Kiwi's

 

[thejester]

WHat do you think ANSTO was founded for?

The original reactor, which was critical, and Australian scientest help developed the original British bombs. And continue to have the capability to develop the material required, and the capability to design one if they already have a Nuke they certainly would have plans to build one in a very quick time. Not all countries that have a nuclear reactors have the capability to create the material

I'm not saying that we couldn't make the bomb, just questioning the attitude that we could do it quicker than anyone else. I'd love Karl to link that document because I was actually thinking of Japan when I said 'any country that has a functioning nuclear power industry'. They have a lot of reactors, a lot more money and a much broader scientific base.

Reality is that it's not that hard to build a bomb; if apartheid South Africa could do it, anyone can. That doesn't mean your first, or a significant arsenal, will come quick.

Whilst Australia does not have an ICBM, the F111's replacement is a cruise missile attached to an FA 18. All frigates and the new destroyer can carry long range cruise missiles as well

ICBM stands for Intercontinental ballistic missile. Both the JASSM and Tomahawk are theatre weapons; not saying they wouldn't be effective but would essentially limit us to waving the nuclear stick at Malaysia and Indonesia.

 

[Karl Pilkington]

Your Rommel quotes was actually about Kiwi's

I'm certain it was in reference to having two Australian divisions, after fighting and losing to them in Tobruk, in conjunction with his panzers, that he could take all of Europe.

Whoever told you it was about Kiwis was yanking your chain.

 

[Qsaint]

I'm certain it was in reference to having two Australian divisions, after fighting and losing to them in Tobruk, in conjunction with his panzers, that he could take all of Europe.

Whoever told you it was about Kiwis was yanking your chain.

The Kiwis were mainly part of the long range desert group and the spearhead division of the eighth army that drove Rommel back.

The quote as far as I know is not attributed in any definate way to Aussie Digger

Interestingly for all our Hamas supporters Moshe Dayan, served with the 7th division during the war and loss his eye then.

 

[Karl Pilkington]

The Kiwis were mainly part of the long range desert group and the spearhead division of the eighth army that drove Rommel back.

The quote as far as I know is not attributed in any definate way to Aussie Digger

Interestingly for all our Hamas supporters Moshe Dayan, served with the 7th division during the war and loss his eye then.

I'm not tryiong to perpetuate this myth that Australians are the best troops in the world anymore than you, but that quote was in relation to Australians, though obviously NZ contributed a lot as well. The French were very impressed with our troops as well.

But that was then and this is now.

 

[stormee]

Ok lets assume for a second the chinese decide they want to invade Australia. What is stopping them?

1) The ability to transport the troops needed here. They would need a LOT of shipping support to firstly get their ships here, and then to supply them when they were on the ground. An army at war goes through unspeakable amounts of equipment and munitions and any invading army wouldn't have these at their disposal. They would have to be shipped from China. Send 2 subs up into the Timor Sea (assuming they would land at Darwin, being the closest seaport to China and it would become very difficult to get the necessary supplies to our shores to fight a war.

2) Ok so you've landed in Darwin and managed to capture it (unlikely because the US would tell us the moment an invasion fleet set sail, and defences would be created accordingly). What next? You're THOUSANDS of kilometres from the nearest city. You could have landed in a city further down the coast, however this just leaves you open to attacks from RAAF aircraft based in QLD and more warships and submarines operating off the coast. You could try and fight your way inland, but I suspect the Australian tactics would be very much hit and run, bring elements of the enemy further inland, then infiltrate and disrupt supply lines, leaving enemy troops undersupplied and vulnerable. Australian troops would have a far better knowledge of the terrain, support from the local populace, and more secure supply lines, with air support available, whereas China would not risk putting aircraft carriers into waters where submarines were lurking.

It would simply be a no-win situation. We don't need a huge army, our terrain and landscape is our biggest advantage. You could land 400,000 troops and you MAY be able to push into Queensland, but GL getting through in the wet season, and good luck supplying all those troops. It just wouldn't be possible.

 

[Karl Pilkington]

Summed up perfectly stormee. Australia, most Asian countries, Canada and the US are very difficult to invade because of their dispersed populations and difficult terrain. Very different to European warfare.

 

[haterade]

and lets not forget to mention the kangaroos are on our side.

 

[Karl Pilkington]

and lets not forget to mention the kangaroos are on our side.

I know you were joking, but Saltwater Crocodiles are an ace in the hole as well.

In Borneo during WW2 they were said to have eaten hundreds, if not thousands of Japanese soldiers. (I think I read that on wikipedia so accuracy is possibly missing).