Research Missing DOD or DOB for League players (AFL)

[35Daicos]

Robert Edward James Burns (1884-1949) - Find a...

Born in Melbourne , Australia but came to Edinburgh University to study medicine. Robert Burns became a doctor in Abertillery. For more information: https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/tilleryonline/viewtopic.php?p=25276#p25276

www.findagrave.com

So he also served with the Royal Flying Corps (RFC) in WWI. He led a rather interesting life, it seems!

 

[35Daicos]

Yet he's not on any Ancestry trees.

Was he Vic or WA born?

Vic. Born at Collingwood (in 1884):

This was his only brother:

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Vic. Born at Collingwood (in 1884):
View attachment 1374326
This was his only brother:
View attachment 1374329
View attachment 1374338

Is HART the maiden name of Bob and James' mother?

 

[35Daicos]

Is HART the maiden name of Bob and James' mother?

Yes!

 

[35Daicos]

I'm a bit puzzled that a DOD for Henry John (Harry) Barr is still being sought by the AFL (from Rd. 8 2022 Football Record):

If they're convinced they have the right person then why don't they just accept that he died on the ill-fated SS Waratah back in 1909?:

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

I'm a bit puzzled that a DOD for Henry John (Harry) Barr is still being sought by the AFL (from Rd. 8 2022 Football Record)
If they're convinced they have the right person then why don't they just accept that he died on the ill-fated SS Waratah back in 1909?

And Charles McCartney has been researched earlier as well in this thread - seems fairly clear that he died in Colac in May 1949 but not clear from the thread whether anyone informed AFL - Rhett requested that it be done separately but not sure it ever happened...

 

[35Daicos]

And Charles McCartney has been researched earlier as well in this thread - seems fairly clear that he died in Colac in May 1949 but not clear from the thread whether anyone informed AFL - Rhett requested that it be done separately but not sure it ever happened...

Maybe that explains it! The AFL guys really should be aware of this thread's existence, and check in on it every now and then, especially as they have asked us to help out with some of these mystery cases. I know the same old names have been brought up in recent weeks in that section of the Football Record, so maybe there are other cases that pretty much have been solved in this thread but they just aren't aware of it? They were notified of the recent Bob Burns DOD discovery via the Collingwood club historian.

 

[rbartlett]

And Charles McCartney has been researched earlier as well in this thread - seems fairly clear that he died in Colac in May 1949 but not clear from the thread whether anyone informed AFL - Rhett requested that it be done separately but not sure it ever happened...

I'll add McCartney to the next email spreadsheet for SR to read. But he advised me to hold off sending anything further to him to at least end of year. So not much more I can do about that, unless he stumbled across this thread/post in the meantime

 

[35Daicos]

I'll add McCartney to the next email spreadsheet for SR to read. But he advised me to hold off sending anything further to him to at least end of year. So not much more I can do about that, unless he stumbled across this thread/post in the meantime

Rhett, I know this isn't your fault in any way, but we've got Col H. appealing for people to come forward with information on these players, while we have his colleague Steve R. saying "don't send us anything for the next year or so"!! Something is a bit messed up with that! But once again, they should be monitoring this thread.

 

[rbartlett]

Rhett, I know this isn't your fault in any way, but we've got Col H. appealing for people to come forward with information on these players, while we have his colleague Steve R. saying "don't send us anything for the next year or so"!! Something is a bit messed up with that! But once again, they should be monitoring this thread.

Look, Im happy for you to make Col aware yourself in the meantime if you want.
I just dont want to overstep the mark with SR

 

[Bandit55]

I'm a bit puzzled that a DOD for Henry John (Harry) Barr is still being sought by the AFL (from Rd. 8 2022 Football Record):
View attachment 1396288
If they're convinced they have the right person then why don't they just accept that he died on the ill-fated SS Waratah back in 1909?:
View attachment 1396289

I'm not sure about the accuracy of the detail on Michael Joseph O'Hagan born 22 January 1878. He doesn't seem to appear on any Ancestry trees as the son of John O'Hagan (1845-1882) and Mary Ann O'Hagan (-1891).

in addition, according to Wikipedia he did his matriculation in 1893 when he would've been aged 15 and then was studying at Melbourne Uni in 1895 when he was 17.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

I'm not sure about the accuracy of the detail on Michael Joseph O'Hagan born 22 January 1878. He doesn't seem to appear on any Ancestry trees as the son of John O'Hagan (1845-1882) and Mary Ann O'Hagan (-1891).

in addition, according to Wikipedia he did his matriculation in 1893 when he would've been aged 15 and then was studying at Melbourne Uni in 1895 when he was 17.

Vic BDM confirms that a Michael Joseph O'Hagan was born to John O'Hagan (1845-1882) and Mary Ann O'Hagan, nee Creed, (~1850-1891) in early 1878 - ref VIC BDM 1878/1116 - they had five children - not all of whom seem to appear in Ancestry trees....

This individual seems to be the one identified as the player by AFL (based on DOB) but match reports don't mention him and I don't see any way of positively identifying who actually played from public sources. As you have identified, based on age, it seems unlikely that the school / university references in wikipedia are for the same person as that identified as the player - but given he played for St Kilda the school location is close by so that aspect does make sense.

Without further evidence it is very hard to say identified player is incorrect (although this may be the case) but the wiki page does seem a bit inconsistent.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

As you have identified, based on age, it seems unlikely that the school / university references in wikipedia are for the same person as that identified as the player - but given he played for St Kilda the school location is close by so that aspect does make sense.

Actually I think I am wrong about that - looking at the school article again - his contemporaries include Tom Fogarty (born 21 March 1878) and Patrick Phillip Smithwick (born 31 Aug 1877) - I think this is likely to be the same person as the player identified by the AFL - they must have matriculated at around age 15-16 in the 1870s

 

[the croucher]

Rhett, I know this isn't your fault in any way, but we've got Col H. appealing for people to come forward with information on these players, while we have his colleague Steve R. saying "don't send us anything for the next year or so"!! Something is a bit messed up with that! But once again, they should be monitoring this thread.

Yes, messed up alright, very disappointing !

We appreciate the updates received from SR e.g. the just announced news of Alex Mathieson's passing...
but we're not allowed to pass on updates and amendments we have found "for the next year or so."

With ColH, SR; and M Lovett at the Season Guide apparently not talking to each other, or just not bothering to update details in a consistent way, the AFL information superhighway has a lot of potholes in it.

 

[35Daicos]

Yes, messed up alright, very disappointing !

We appreciate the updates received from SR e.g. the just announced news of Alex Mathieson's passing...
but we're not allowed to pass on updates and amendments we have found "for the next year or so."

With ColH, SR; and M Lovett at the Season Guide apparently not talking to each other, or just not bothering to update details in a consistent way, the AFL information superhighway has a lot of potholes in it.

It's something I will never understand! I do appreciate that the AFL chaps must have projects/regular tasks they're meant to be working on, but if decent evidence is found that the records have the wrong player listed as having played a game, or that someone has been completely misidentified in the records (e.g. wrong name, DOB, DOD) then surely that is so important that it shouldn't have to wait for anything?!

From this week's Football Record:

It's interesting that they still believe Charlie and Ern Jenkins to be cousins, not brothers. This post strongly suggests the two Fitzroy players were brothers, that the AFL may have identified the wrong person (Charlie Jenkins), and that post (backed up by the one that follows it) may well have the answer to the mystery!

Charlie Jenkins headed to Queensland in mid-1894:

If the AFL has the right person in it's records he had only just turned 16. He headed north again in mid-1895, and as it was apparently for work purposes he very likely was too young:

William Charles Jenkins was almost 20 when the Fitzroy star went north in 1894, and that seems a much more likely fit.

 

[Bandit55]

Actually I think I am wrong about that - looking at the school article again - his contemporaries include Tom Fogarty (born 21 March 1878) and Patrick Phillip Smithwick (born 31 Aug 1877) - I think this is likely to be the same person as the player identified by the AFL - they must have matriculated at around age 15-16 in the 1870s

Thanks for that. This appears to be the last sighting of Mick O'Hagan on Trove:

CYCLIST'S MAINTENANCE CASE - The Prahran Telegraph (Vic. : 1889 - 1930) - 1 Aug 1908

On another note, his brother Patrick was the father of the entertainer Jack O'Hagan of the 'Road to Gundagai' fame.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

'Road to Gundagai'

A song which has had its melody used by footy clubs.

 

[35Daicos]

Updated 28 November 2021

118 William "Bill" Henry Woods b:21/8/1890 Geelong 1909


75 *James "Jim" Kenneth McDonald b:24/6/1916 Melb 1942 To Be Confirmed


James William McDonald has the same relationship as Alan - from the List Inaccuracy Thread #post 2450


33 James "Jimmy" Gaynor b:17/5/1877 Carl 1904 Listed as James Bernard Gaynor died 20/11/1918

AFL Tables has his DOB as 21 August 1890, which matches what it has in the post I quoted. AustralianFootball.com has 31 August 1890, and The Encyclopedia agrees with that. The AFL Historical Statistics site had this way back in the day:


Wikipedia has: Bill Woods (Australian footballer) | Wikiwand




Plenty of trees on Ancestry have this chap dying in 1972, but no exact DOD. Surely if this is the right person and he did die then it can be tracked down easily enough?!

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

View attachment 1412181

AFL Tables has his DOB as 21 August 1890, which matches what it has in the post I quoted. AustralianFootball.com has 31 August 1890, and The Encyclopedia agrees with that. The AFL Historical Statistics site had this way back in the day:
View attachment 1412185

Wikipedia has: Bill Woods (Australian footballer) | Wikiwand

View attachment 1412183

Plenty of trees on Ancestry have this chap dying in 1972, but no exact DOD. Surely if this is the right person and he did die then it can be tracked down easily enough?!

This post from a couple of years ago shows that AFL believe that Bill Woods is not the one described in Wikipedia page - they have him as a half brother of Ike Woods

 

[35Daicos]

Updated 28 November 2021

36 *Gordon Stanley Green b:31/5/1925 NthMelb 1942 alive in 2017

From this week's Football Record:

All the records I've checked have 31 May 1925 as the DOB for Gordon Stanley Green, so is that a typo in the Record, or do the AFL now believe it is 3 May 1924?

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

From this week's Football Record:
View attachment 1434828
All the records I've checked have 31 May 1925 as the DOB for Gordon Stanley Green, so is that a typo in the Record, or do the AFL now believe it is 3 May 1924?

I'll email Col H on this - I was the one in 2017 who tracked him down and I have both his and his son's email addresses. He was alive and well and living in Qld at that point. In their emails they confirmed DOB was 1925 so I think this might be a typo in the Record

 

[rbartlett]

I posted in the inaccuracy thread some updates from Stephen Rodges regarding DoD details.

Resource - List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

Rankin goal change was approved by AFL in Aug 2020. Our wiki guy needs to update Rankins WIKI profile as it still says 400 goals btw RedmanWasHere , its not wrong to say that Lynch is 100th to 400 goals is it. Because Rankin lost a goal in Aug last year. Rankin's WIKI profile has been updated...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[the croucher]

Yes, agree with that, so sorted out a few words explaining reason for approach and included link to these discussions we've been having.
Asked for any information to help us resolve the question. Sent same message to all three private tree owners.

have just had a response from one of the Howman tree owners on Ancestry...asked him to clarify detail incl exact DOD, so perhaps we'll be able to finalise this one soon !

 

[the croucher]

have just had a response from one of the Howman tree owners on Ancestry...asked him to clarify detail incl exact DOD, so perhaps we'll be able to finalise this one soon !

Update about Robert "Bob" Reid (Footscray).

Further message from his nephew gives DOD as 10 November 2005, information which matches that given when a Ryerson Index search is made.
The Courier Mail and Sunshine Coast Daily issues of 12 Nov '05 both having death notices for a Robert Reid with DOD as 10 Nov.

 

[rbartlett]

I know Rodgers has sent myself and WhiteHartLane23 a few emails about DOB and DOD.
WHL - is there anything you want to post in here to make everyone aware?