Research Missing DOD or DOB for League players (AFL)

[rbartlett]

Rodgers has advised 3 missing DOBs have been found

Email extract:

The 3 dates-of-birth for the guys we were after.
(I won't bother to give all the other details for them; you know who they are - the current cases)

- James William McDonald.
Brother of Alan
Born 15 - 6 - 1913

(Where did the 24 - 6, as in 24 - 6 - 16, come from? Who knows!)

- Charles Patrick Macartney
Born 17 - 3 - 1873

(Isn't that amazing! For a record of
Born 1874 at N.M. (No. 3894) Such a late registration! Just shows, you never can tell!
Maybe a clue, with the middle name, was that he was born on St Patrick's Day, but if you'd known that, you'd probably have said, in 1874! So, the one we previously had in the records, as we speculated, was for the Ballarat birth.)

- Edgar Clarence Shaw
Born 10 - 7 - 1903

(Remember there was some speculation that the d-o-b and d-o-d were the same;
25 - 5 - 1981, so 25 - 5 - 1903. That was a furphy!)

 

[GreyCrow]

Rodgers has advised 3 missing DOBs have been found

Email extract:

The 3 dates-of-birth for the guys we were after.
(I won't bother to give all the other details for them; you know who they are - the current cases)

- James William McDonald.
Brother of Alan
Born 15 - 6 - 1913

James William not James Kenneth

Ancestry tree + Ryerson give a death date

Birth	1913 Ararat, Victoria, Australia
Death	28 Sep 1984 Meeniyan, Victoria, Australia

 

[rbartlett]

correct, the middle name has now changed from Kenneth to William

James William not James Kenneth

Ancestry tree + Ryerson give a death date

Birth	1913 Ararat, Victoria, Australia
Death	28 Sep 1984 Meeniyan, Victoria, Australia

,

 

[Toni Munday]

Here's a reply from Stephen Rodgers to you all, asking for assistance

"
I popped in to the Library this afternoon, just for primarily a brief look into
that infuriating Neeson/Briggs case.

On what I said previously, it definitely now seems that 26/7/83 guy isn't the
right bloke (from, for example, wife and kids in his death notices in the
West Australian - see attached) - but . . .

as I said, I knew that was a real long-shot! (but it was worth a try)

But other intriguing things emerged (which you already may be aware of).
You mentioned, in yours, the Kalgoorlie court case of 1948.
If you then look at the Kalgoorlie electoral roll, for 1949; there are just
2 Briggs - an Alfred and an Ivy!!
But they aren't living at the same address!!
The Alfred, is an Alfred Milton;
the Ivy is Ivy Margaret Ellen.

You'd think that Alfred - matching his full earlier name - would now be:
Alfred Carl Frank Briggs; wouldn't you.

BUT!!!!! of course, the Milton "ties in" with the 1950 car accident record, you noted,
of the son being Milton Kenneth Briggs!

(Another infuriating aspect: I felt I'd be able to get a resolution by tracing this
Milton Kenneth Briggs, born 1943. (Pretty distinctive name, right?)
But he is NEVER, not once! - on the Australian Electoral Rolls
(And it's not because he died as a youngster in WA - no WA death record,
up to 1971, in the online records.)
So where the hell is he? - I think you mentioned he was adopted; you wonder,
did he later find his real parents, drop Briggs, and take their name - something like that?

There's also issues with this Ivy Margaret Ellen Briggs. As you probably would have seen,
she shows up at Karrakatta with a 1974 death, but her age (70); just doesn't gel with the
newspaper article saying she's 39 in 1950, does it?

So, are these, or are they not, the right people???
But, geez!, it's Alfred and Ivy, there, on the Kalgoorlie electoral roll!!!
(it's an unbelievable coincidence, don't you think!)
I think I must be missing something! - I'd be rapt if you and the guys could solve this
super-annoying case, please.

Don't worry so much about Ross/Rosser. I can easily get the date-of-death
(I'm sure the 1945 guy, because of the parents and the Tulip surname thing, is the right bloke - no doubt!)

I can just ask Russell Holmesby, for these 3, from BDM :

• the new Richards NM date of birth for 1901
• the Ross date of death for 1945
• to confirm if Neeson is 5-6 or 15-6 for 1914. View attachment 438544 View attachment 438545

Thanks! - good luck with Briggs/Neeson (my Xmas present?) "

Hi - been research Alfred Carl Frank Briggs for 17;years along with his whole clan - just so you know he marries at least another once possible two - his last known article is do with an accident 1951 which Ivy is in and Milton Kenneth is injured ( Milton is looking like being an adopted son - great article about him coming back after the war to play for Miners Rovers and winning so many premierships and trophies - we will find him cheers

 

[Toni Munday]

Here's a reply from Stephen Rodgers to you all, asking for assistance

"
I popped in to the Library this afternoon, just for primarily a brief look into
that infuriating Neeson/Briggs case.

On what I said previously, it definitely now seems that 26/7/83 guy isn't the
right bloke (from, for example, wife and kids in his death notices in the
West Australian - see attached) - but . . .

as I said, I knew that was a real long-shot! (but it was worth a try)

But other intriguing things emerged (which you already may be aware of).
You mentioned, in yours, the Kalgoorlie court case of 1948.
If you then look at the Kalgoorlie electoral roll, for 1949; there are just
2 Briggs - an Alfred and an Ivy!!
But they aren't living at the same address!!
The Alfred, is an Alfred Milton;
the Ivy is Ivy Margaret Ellen.

You'd think that Alfred - matching his full earlier name - would now be:
Alfred Carl Frank Briggs; wouldn't you.

BUT!!!!! of course, the Milton "ties in" with the 1950 car accident record, you noted,
of the son being Milton Kenneth Briggs!

(Another infuriating aspect: I felt I'd be able to get a resolution by tracing this
Milton Kenneth Briggs, born 1943. (Pretty distinctive name, right?)
But he is NEVER, not once! - on the Australian Electoral Rolls
(And it's not because he died as a youngster in WA - no WA death record,
up to 1971, in the online records.)
So where the hell is he? - I think you mentioned he was adopted; you wonder,
did he later find his real parents, drop Briggs, and take their name - something like that?

There's also issues with this Ivy Margaret Ellen Briggs. As you probably would have seen,
she shows up at Karrakatta with a 1974 death, but her age (70); just doesn't gel with the
newspaper article saying she's 39 in 1950, does it?

So, are these, or are they not, the right people???
But, geez!, it's Alfred and Ivy, there, on the Kalgoorlie electoral roll!!!
(it's an unbelievable coincidence, don't you think!)
I think I must be missing something! - I'd be rapt if you and the guys could solve this
super-annoying case, please.

Don't worry so much about Ross/Rosser. I can easily get the date-of-death
(I'm sure the 1945 guy, because of the parents and the Tulip surname thing, is the right bloke - no doubt!)

I can just ask Russell Holmesby, for these 3, from BDM :

• the new Richards NM date of birth for 1901
• the Ross date of death for 1945
• to confirm if Neeson is 5-6 or 15-6 for 1914. View attachment 438544 View attachment 438545

Thanks! - good luck with Briggs/Neeson (my Xmas present?) "

Trying to attach

Hi - been research Alfred Carl Frank Briggs for 17;years along with his whole clan - just so you know he marries at least another once possible two - his last known article is do with an accident 1951 which Ivy is in and Milton Kenneth is injured ( Milton is looking like being an adopted son - great article about him coming back after the war to play for Miners Rovers and winning so many premierships and trophies - we will find him cheers

 

[Toni Munday]

Okay everyone - Stephen R has replied to our most recent email listing the final lots of guys we've tracked down.
So firstly, here is Stephen R's length response concerning Neeson/Briggs

"I hate him - probably just as much as that Percy McRae did, when Neeson/Briggs cuckolded him. Because Russell checked with BDM and the correct d-o-b IS June 15, 1914. You wonder, did he genuinely believe he was born on the 5th, or was he already muddying the waters then - as he was going to do, over and over, from the early '50s onwards, and make it a nightmare for us trying to find his death.
Either way, it's a shocker! Because, like your guy who said,
Rhett - can you please make sure this gets mentioned to the AFL guys, . . .
everyone else who sees the military record, and sees the 5th, will be saying -
There's another one the AFL have stuffed up!
We can't win!

(And that's apart from having spent SO MUCH time on his death and, as you know - turning up zilch!)
I also emailed the WAFL historian, Greg Wardell-Johnson; and spoke to Norman Neeson, NM player of the '50s (tracked him down to Qld) - they know nothing.

And, like a fool, I even emailed New Norcia!
Did you see their website, Rhett! :
"You won't believe what lies behind the locked doors of our buildings . . . "

(including - haha!! - the date-of-death of Alfred Briggs!)

I just asked, if the name of Milton Kenneth Briggs, rang a bell with anyone. I didn't even get a response! (And at the back of my mind, Rhett, I thought: what about the wife, Beverley? Aren't these guys supposed to be celibate? - haha!!)

Although New Norcia gave me nausea; yes, I suppose I can see the humorous side to it:
Alfred was a devil; and Milton was a saint!

Maybe it's time to permanently consign this one to the Too Hard Basket - what do you reckon?

I'm just so pissed off that - no matter how bad he was in life! - he couldn't have just had a 'normal' death, and been in Karrakatta. What's his problem!!
If he actually is there - as say, Alfred Milton (different surname) - I'll never forgive him!! "

 

[Bandit55]

I may have found a bit of a lead on South's Keith McNaughton aka the boxer Al Moran. A Keith Barry McNaughton passed away earlier this year, he was the son of Keith and Edna both deceased:

MCNAUGHTON, Keith | Death Notices | Melbourne | My Tributes

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/tributes/notice/death-notices/mcnaughton-keith-barry/5906035/

it appears that this family, father and then son, ran the pub at 470 Bridge Road, Richmond, now known as the 'Bouzy Rouge', in the late 1970s and early 1980s. I can't much more information at this stage.

 

[35Daicos]

I may have found a bit of a lead on South's Keith McNaughton aka the boxer Al Moran. A Keith Barry McNaughton passed away earlier this year, he was the son of Keith and Edna both deceased:

MCNAUGHTON, Keith | Death Notices | Melbourne | My Tributes

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/tributes/notice/death-notices/mcnaughton-keith-barry/5906035/

it appears that this family, father and then son, ran the pub at 470 Bridge Road, Richmond, now known as the 'Bouzy Rouge', in the late 1970s and early 1980s. I can't much more information at this stage.

It does appear certain he was the son of the South Melbourne footballer:



This will be the marriage of the footballer:



I still can't see a DOD for him anywhere, sadly! This should be his wife's death in 2012:


Keith had died by that time.


So where did Keith Patrick end up?

 

[Bandit55]

It does appear certain he was the son of the South Melbourne footballer:
View attachment 1567870

View attachment 1567871
This will be the marriage of the footballer:
View attachment 1567876
View attachment 1567892
View attachment 1567901
I still can't see a DOD for him anywhere, sadly! This should be his wife's death in 2012:
View attachment 1567906
View attachment 1567910
Keith had died by that time.
View attachment 1567915
View attachment 1567916
So where did Keith Patrick end up?

It seems unusual that he would disappear when everything seems to indicate that the family were close.

 

[35Daicos]

It seems unusual that he would disappear when everything seems to indicate that the family were close.

Yes, it's all rather odd! An Alexandra McNaughton has put this tree on Ancestry:

It seems she doesn't even know when he was born, let alone when he died! There's 5 trees altogether, and none of them show when he died.

I can't see him in the war records under Keith McNaughton or even Al Moran, so maybe that didn't happen? At times he appears on the electoral roll as Macnaughton, with his wife McNaughton, which doesn't make sense!:

 

[the croucher]

It does appear certain he was the son of the South Melbourne footballer:
View attachment 1567870

View attachment 1567871
This will be the marriage of the footballer:
View attachment 1567876
View attachment 1567892
View attachment 1567901
I still can't see a DOD for him anywhere, sadly! This should be his wife's death in 2012:
View attachment 1567906
View attachment 1567910
Keith had died by that time.
View attachment 1567915
View attachment 1567916
So where did Keith Patrick end up?

Ryerson Index has an listing for a Keith Patrick Thomas McNAUGHTON with entry in Herald Sun issue of 31 May 2000 DOD being 30 May,
no age at death shown...
tried the HS website link to death notices for that year, but one for KPT McN didn't show up.

 

[Bandit55]

Ryerson Index has an listing for a Keith Patrick Thomas McNAUGHTON with entry in Herald Sun issue of 31 May 2000 DOD being 30 May,
no age at death shown...
tried the HS website link to death notices for that year, but one for KPT McN didn't show up.

Ryerson also has a listing for Keith (Al) McNaughton on 1 June 2000 in the Herald Sun. Looks like it’s him.


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[35Daicos]

Ryerson Index has an listing for a Keith Patrick Thomas McNAUGHTON with entry in Herald Sun issue of 31 May 2000 DOD being 30 May,
no age at death shown...
tried the HS website link to death notices for that year, but one for KPT McN didn't show up.

Ryerson also has a listing for Keith (Al) McNaughton on 1 June 2000 in the Herald Sun. Looks like it’s him.


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Yes, I think it is looking rather likely that it will be him! I can't find a Keith Patrick Thomas McNAUGHTON on Ancestry, or anywhere else. Maybe they got it wrong with his birth reg. in calling him Keith Patrick James McNaughton, and that's caused issues in tracking him down? The father was James Thomas.

The Al, which appears to be a nickname, would obviously fit in nicely with his boxing name.

He was living with his wife at Blairgowrie in the Rosebud/Nepean area here:


Though it would be nice to get a look at those death notices in the Herald Sun, I think there's enough evidence to be very confident that he died in 2000.

 

[worbod]

In case you are not aware, you are able to contact the Melbourne State Library and ask them to send you the death notices for Keith McNaughton, using the dates displayed on Ryerson Index to inform the Library which issues you want (if you think that will help your cause).

 

[35Daicos]

In case you are not aware, you are able to contact the Melbourne State Library and ask them to send you the death notices for Keith McNaughton, using the dates displayed on Ryerson Index to inform the Library which issues you want (if you think that will help your cause).

Thanks a lot for that. Very nice tip!

Bandit55 did you want to have a crack at that?

You can find notices/tributes for people called McNaughton in the Herald Sun from as far back as 1999 & 2000, and even look at heaps of notices for other people on 31 May and 1 June 2000, but this one doesn't show up for some reason!

 

[Bandit55]

Thanks a lot for that. Very nice tip!

Bandit55 did you want to have a crack at that?

You can find notices/tributes for people called McNaughton in the Herald Sun from as far back as 1999 & 2000, and even look at heaps of notices for other people on 31 May and 1 June 2000, but this one doesn't show up for some reason!

I've sent a request to SLV, have to allow up to 10 days for a response.

 

[worbod]

I don't know whether any of you are aware of this website but it contains many links to Victorian cemeteries. The odds are reasonable it could be helpful with some research here and there.

Burial and Cremation Records by Region

Finding people and places in Victoria, Australia

victoriangenealogy.com.au

 

[RedmanWasHere]

I don't know whether any of you are aware of this website but it contains many links to Victorian cemeteries. The odds are reasonable it could be helpful with some research here and there.

Burial and Cremation Records by Region

Finding people and places in Victoria, Australia

victoriangenealogy.com.au

This is also a worthy website.

Billion Graves Headstone, Grave, and Cemetery Records Site Map

billiongraves.com

 

[Jo McNaughton]

Thanks a lot for that. Very nice tip!

Bandit55 did you want to have a crack at that?

You can find notices/tributes for people called McNaughton in the Herald Sun from as far back as 1999 & 2000, and even look at heaps of notices for other people on 31 May and 1 June 2000, but this one doesn't show up for some reason!

Hi I have come across this thread. I am Keith McNaughton's (grand daughter) and happy to answer any questions you may have. He only had 1 child, my dad, who died last year.

 

[Bandit55]

Hi I have come across this thread. I am Keith McNaughton's (grand daughter) and happy to answer any questions you may have. He only had 1 child, my dad, who died last year.

Hi Jo. Thanks very much for making contact. As you may have gathered from this thread, the AFL's records for a number of former players are incomplete.

I came across your father's death notice, a few weeks ago. This has led us to believe that your grandfather (and former South Melbourne footballer) was Keith Patrick Thomas McNAUGHTON who passed away on 30 May 2000, notice in the Herald Sun issue of 31 May 2000.

I guess our question is whether you can confirm that we have 'found' your grandfather.

 

[35Daicos]

Hi I have come across this thread. I am Keith McNaughton's (grand daughter) and happy to answer any questions you may have. He only had 1 child, my dad, who died last year.

G'day Jo, and thanks for coming forward and making that offer.

Hi Jo. Thanks very much for making contact. As you may have gathered from this thread, the AFL's records for a number of former players are incomplete.

I came across your father's death notice, a few weeks ago. This has led us to believe that your grandfather (and former South Melbourne footballer) was Keith Patrick Thomas McNAUGHTON who passed away on 30 May 2000, notice in the Herald Sun issue of 31 May 2000.

I guess our question is whether you can confirm that we have 'found' your grandfather.

Thanks, I was hoping you'd respond to that, given it was you that brought this up a couple of months ago!

 

[bilko2]

I have some concerns over this birthdate. If the following information is true then this must put in doubt the 1877 birth.

If we accept the 1877 birth date , then the only James Gaynor born in that year is the following
EventBirth
Event registration number13868
Registration year1877
Personal information
Family name GAYNOR
Given names James

SexUnknown

Father's name Thomas
Mother's name Bridget (Sheehy)
Place of birth CARLTON

Then the following Obit from November 1900 is a concern.

Family Notices - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 28 Dec 1900

GAYNOR.—On the 16th November, at Duncaha,Co. Limerick, Ireland, James Francis, the beloved and only son of Thos. and Bridget Gaynor, 434 Madeline- street, Carlton, Victoria, aged 23 years and 6 months. R.I.P.
FATHER AND SON. - The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 - 1954) - 10 Mar 1898

Not certain the above is related but I would be happy to accept they are. I just dont see a sportsman in this tale

The bolded concerned me until a search of the death records shows all the sons born to Thomas and Bridget died prior to 1900 except James. The 23/6 puts the birth date at May 1877. , which is as noted above. Coincidence?

This does preclude the possibility of James being born elsewhere and the above a completely different person.

I also have concerns there seems to be little mention of a Gaynor playing any form of football that I can see. there is a John Gaynor strongly connected to the Maldon area but nothing at Carlton or the Carlton Districts team. That doesnt say I have looked everywhere.

Maybe something to have others comment on

The chap Gaynor died of TB in Ireland.

 

[Bandit55]

Might have found George Allen:

Southern Metropolitan Cemeteries Trust

 

[35Daicos]

Might have found George Allen:

Southern Metropolitan Cemeteries Trust

Nice find! This Ancestry tree matches that:

It also lists Thomas William as his brother:

Tommy Allen played senior football for South Melbourne:

 

[Bandit55]

Nice find! This Ancestry tree matches that:
View attachment 1606504
It also lists Thomas William as his brother:
View attachment 1606505
Tommy Allen played senior football for South Melbourne:
View attachment 1606512
View attachment 1606506

He may have been the father of George and Mal Allen who played for Port Melbourne in the 1960s and 70s.


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